Rethinking Thanksgiving

Wirelessly posted

And few posters are right. You don't have to celebrate the holiday, so why do you care if we want to? Well, I begin to think which holiday will be next that they will nag about it??
 
Wirelessly posted

Sheesh! I am not fucking ignorant! I was taught when I was in middle school, and I still remember what both sides of whites and natives had in the past. I'd not fucking forgetten at all.

You can scream all you want. You are no different from people are so easily offended by Christmas and Jesus' birth. ...For every year.

Good riddance.

Deafdrummer is notorious member to confusing someone so not let worry about this member, so just ignore and I don't agree with this member.
 
Because ...

(thinking about this) Today is almost over anyway, and it afforded me a day off from work.

:io:
 
Well, it is Native American Heritage Month for November which goes along with Thanksgiving Day. I guess I have to speak up and try to teach you and others about our Native perspective just like us being deaf having to suffered under the Alexander Graham Bell for making us speak without sign language and forcing us to hear and pick up the words. Pfft. You get the idea what is happening to us in both worlds. :(
 
Well, it is Native American Heritage Month for November which goes along with Thanksgiving Day. I guess I have to speak up and try to teach you and others about our Native perspective just like us being deaf having to suffered under the Alexander Graham Bell for making us speak without sign language and forcing us to hear and pick up the words. Pfft. You get the idea what is happening to us in both worlds. :(

I think this is a good thing. I'd rather learn about how they lived than died. About how they ate and had romantic relationships and what their social structure was about. I'd like to know about how they invented Lacrosse and their fishing and hunting techniques. I'd like to know how they built homes in the grand canyon.

All men die, it is what we do here in life that is important.
 
Wirelessly posted

Bebonang said:
Well, it is Native American Heritage Month for November which goes along with Thanksgiving Day. I guess I have to speak up and try to teach you and others about our Native perspective just like us being deaf having to suffered under the Alexander Graham Bell for making us speak without sign language and forcing us to hear and pick up the words. Pfft. You get the idea what is happening to us in both worlds. :(

I can understand that. You still have a choice to not celebrate the Thanksgiving holiday instead telling us what to do and what not to do. Which is so rude and uncalled for.

Your month don't have to include the holiday. I mean, come on. What is the point of telling and scolding us for just want to be with our families and celebrate it? I am so tired of holiday 'wars' like this thread and another anti-Christmas. We don't need an another holiday 'war' if it comes to anti-Easter, anti-Halloween or whatever...

Sighs. We probably really should be ready for next anti-holiday...

So... will you be happy if we stop celebrating Thanksgiving because you dont want all of us to do so?
 
Wirelessly posted

Well, I am done with this thread. So I should enjoy day and I hope you all have a wonderful day. Later then.
 
Last edited:
This is an article from Indian Country Today. This is what spectators or audience respond to and about the Native Americans in the New York Macy's Parade. The turtle is our Turtle Island which mean the lands of the North America.

As the Oneida Indian Nation float made its way down Broadway in New York City for this year’s 86th annual Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, “Thank you for giving us Thanksgiving” was the most popular cheer heard from the crowd; “Look honey, real Native Americans” was second. The float, called “The True Spirit of Thanksgiving,” was certainly a favorite among parade goers. Many visitors clapped their hands and danced as they heard the sounds of Iroquois social dance music blasting from the speakers on the float. As I crouched to take a photo I heard a father say to his child “Look son, those are the First Americans.”

For the fifth straight year Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter led the nation’s float, accompanied by 12 Native American representatives, some from as far away as California. The goal of the Oneida Nation’s participation in the parade is to combat the stereotyped images created by the media and create a positive and accurate portrayal of who Indian people are today. “We want the public to see the very spirit of Native people and how the tradition and culture of our ancestors inspired the very first Thanksgiving” said Halbritter. I asked the tribal representative how he feels about the fact that many Native Americans choose to protest the holiday, his reply was a positive one: “Native people certainly have a great many issues to address and need to come a lot further in our struggles, but I think there is a time and place and right now I think is a time when the ceremonies of Thanksgiving and gratitude to the Creator for all we have is celebrated—we must remember the many blessings we have and we do have many.” Sonya Flores, a Native American from the Kupa Tribe of Southern California, also gave her Native perspective on Thanksgiving. “We as Native people have much to be thankful for. Our participation in Thanksgiving can show Americans, that yes, we are here and we are thankful for not just inspiring the first Thanksgiving but also our many accomplishments as a people and the many more yet to come.”

The highlight for the Natives on “The True Spirit of Thanksgiving” float was the performance in front of Macy’s where Grammy Award-winning Oneida artist Thirza Defoe sang the song she wrote especially for the event, “Tree of Life.” With backup from her Native choir and Halbritter’s accompaniment on the Iroquois water drum, the song brought the crowd to their feet. I asked Thirza how she felt performing live in front of tens of thousands of people in attendance and more than 50 million on television around the world, and this humble young lady simply replied, “It was truly amazing”

Thanksgiving celebrations will always be a source of controversy for Native people, but the holiday is cemented in the fiber of American tradition. I don’t think we as Native people will ever get the average American to throw out their turkey dinners and remember the many Native tribes who never had a second or third Thanksgiving with the first visitors from Europe. A Native spectator who asked to remain anonymous said, “If it wasn’t for us they would never have had a feast. Let’s take this day because all America wants to thank us and build it into something positive. This is our holiday and our tradition of being thankful and yes, we are here and our traditions and culture are still alive. That in itself is a blessing and something to truly be thankful for.



Read more:'The True Spirit of Thanksgiving,' the Oneida Nation's Macy's Parade Float, Captivates the Crowds - ICTMN.com 'The True Spirit of Thanksgiving,' the Oneida Nation's Macy's Parade Float, Captivates the Crowds - ICTMN.com
 
It is really sad when Europeans only thought about themselves when there is First people who had been here longer than they are. Our ancestors had been here for centuries before the white people like Columbus came. Columbus and his men were no better than the Pilgrims. I don't know why we have to be sooo friendly and helpful to the white people especially to the Pilgrims to help them survive in the Winter months and to teach them to find food and to farm food, even how to fish so they won't get starve. The white people including the Pilgrims had to lie, steal and made our lives hardship and pushing us in order to get lands away from them.

Maybe that is why we should not have help them in the first place if they were not generous to us over the years. This is probably why our ancestors (Native Americans) tried to push them back to make them go back to Europe wherever they came from. The white people especially the government want to make rules and laws over us and say the white people discovered the lands and that the Natives (Indians) were lower than they are. They managed to painted us as savages and being warriors wanting to start wars but we were only defending our people and our villages while the government and the military want to destroyed us and made our lives miserable by forcing us to move further West or further North.

Yes, we should have our own holiday instead of Thanksgiving Day and Columbus Day as Native American Day. We can still have feast as we need food to survive too. We had and always have blessed to our Creator for giving us food which we had planted, reaped and brought the food to us for many centuries before the white people came end up years later today.

i saw reservation outside tacoma it was like council estate in rough end of cities in uk apart from totem pole at entrance.....white people have romantic notion of indigunus indians in usa...the big spirit living with nature...sad truth is you is living not that sort of life,i was horrified as i thought same, you live in wigwam a part of nature able to commune with spirits,(apart from tax free booze)it very sad what indian people been pushed into...
 
It is really sad when Europeans only thought about themselves when there is First people who had been here longer than they are. Our ancestors had been here for centuries before the white people like Columbus came. Columbus and his men were no better than the Pilgrims. I don't know why we have to be sooo friendly and helpful to the white people especially to the Pilgrims to help them survive in the Winter months and to teach them to find food and to farm food, even how to fish so they won't get starve. The white people including the Pilgrims had to lie, steal and made our lives hardship and pushing us in order to get lands away from them.

Maybe that is why we should not have help them in the first place if they were not generous to us over the years. This is probably why our ancestors (Native Americans) tried to push them back to make them go back to Europe wherever they came from. The white people especially the government want to make rules and laws over us and say the white people discovered the lands and that the Natives (Indians) were lower than they are. They managed to painted us as savages and being warriors wanting to start wars but we were only defending our people and our villages while the government and the military want to destroyed us and made our lives miserable by forcing us to move further West or further North.

Yes, we should have our own holiday instead of Thanksgiving Day and Columbus Day as Native American Day. We can still have feast as we need food to survive too. We had and always have blessed to our Creator for giving us food which we had planted, reaped and brought the food to us for many centuries before the white people came end up years later today.

i saw reservation outside tacoma it was like council estate in rough end of cities in uk apart from totem pole at entrance.....white people have romantic notion of indigunus indians in usa...the big spirit living with nature...sad truth is you is living not that sort of life,i was horrified as i thought same, you live in wigwam a part of nature able to commune with spirits,(apart from tax free booze)it very sad what indian people been pushed into...


That is true what the white people make an assumption on how we live like being in the past. Before going to the residential school, they were being taken away from family and forbade not to speak their own languages and wanted them to speak English. This is why we had hardships for every waking moments every time they want us to be like them. See, it is the same for Deaf and Hard of Hearing having to go with what the Oral-Only people who want us to talk and hear like them when they should know that it is impossible to do that. Dang! **shaking my head** :(
 
Here is another one that might be interest if you want to read about it. It is a long article written by Mike Ely. Very sad about how the North and East Colonies had destroyed Native Americans all in the name of Capitalism. I have put bold on some statements. If you don't want to read it, then don't read.


Native Blood: The Myth of Thanksgiving



by Mike Ely

[Available as podcast.]

It is a deep thing that people still celebrate the survival of the early colonists at Plymouth — by giving thanks to the Christian God who supposedly protected and championed the European invasion. The real meaning of all that, then and now, needs to be continually excavated. The myths and lies that surround the past are constantly draped over the horrors and tortures of our present.

I originally wrote this article a decade ago, and it has showed up in different places and publications usually around the holiday. Pass it on.

Every schoolchild in the U.S. has been taught that the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony invited the local Indians to a major harvest feast after surviving their first bitter year in New England. But the real history of Thanksgiving is a story of the murder of indigenous people and the theft of their land by European colonialists–and of the ruthless ways of capitalism.

* * * * *

In mid-winter 1620 the English ship Mayflower landed on the North American coast, delivering 102 exiles. The original Native people of this stretch of shoreline had already been killed off. In 1614 a British expedition had landed there. When they left they took 24 Indians as slaves and left smallpox behind. Three years of plague wiped out between 90 and 96 percent of the inhabitants of the coast, destroying most villages completely.

The Europeans landed and built their colony called “the Plymouth Plantation” near the deserted ruins of the Indian village of Pawtuxet. They ate from abandoned cornfields grown wild. Only one Pawtuxet named Squanto had survived–he had spent the last years as a slave to the English and Spanish in Europe. Squanto spoke the colonists’ language and taught them how to plant corn and how to catch fish until the first harvest. Squanto also helped the colonists negotiate a peace treaty with the nearby Wampanoag tribe, led by the chief Massasoit.

These were very lucky breaks for the colonists. The first Virginia settlement had been wiped out before they could establish themselves. Thanks to the good will of the Wampanoag, the settlers not only survived their first year but had an alliance with the Wampanoags that would give them almost two decades of peace.

John Winthrop, a founder of the Massahusetts Bay colony considered this wave of illness and death to be a divine miracle. He wrote to a friend in England, “But for the natives in these parts, God hath so pursued them, as for 300 miles space the greatest part of them are swept away by smallpox which still continues among them. So as God hath thereby cleared our title to this place, those who remain in these parts, being in all not 50, have put themselves under our protection.”

The deadly impact of European diseases and the good will of the Wampanoag allowed the settlers to survive their first year.

In celebration of their good fortune, the colony’s governor, William Bradford, declared a three-day feast of thanksgiving after that first harvest of 1621.

How the Puritans Stole the Land

But the peace that produced the Thanksgiving Feast of 1621 meant that the Puritans would have 15 years to establish a firm foothold on the coast. Until 1629 there were no more than 300 settlers in New England, scattered in small and isolated settlements. But their survival inspired a wave of Puritan invasion that soon established growing Massachusetts towns north of Plymouth: Boston and Salem. For 10 years, boatloads of new settlers came.

And as the number of Europeans increased, they proved not nearly so generous as the Wampanoags.

On arrival, the Puritans and other religious sects discussed “who legally owns all this land.” They had to decide this, not just because of Anglo-Saxon traditions, but because their particular way of farming was based on individual–not communal or tribal–ownership. This debate over land ownership reveals that bourgeois “rule of law” does not mean “protect the rights of the masses of people.”

Some settlers argued that the land belonged to the Indians. These forces were excommunicated and expelled. Massachusetts Governor Winthrop declared the Indians had not “subdued” the land, and therefore all uncultivated lands should, according to English Common Law, be considered “public domain.” This meant they belonged to the king. In short, the colonists decided they did not need to consult the Indians when they seized new lands, they only had to consult the representative of the crown (meaning the local governor).

The colonists embraced a line from Psalms 2:8. “Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” Since then, European settler states have similarly declared god their real estate agent: from the Boers seizing South Africa to the Zionists seizing Palestine.

The European immigrants took land and enslaved Indians to help them farm it. By 1637 there were about 2,000 British settlers. They pushed out from the coast and decided to remove the inhabitants.

The Shining City on the Hill

Where did the Plymouth and Massachusetts colonies of Puritan and “separatist” pilgrims come from and what were they really all about?

Governor Winthrop, a founder of the Massachusetts colony, said, “We shall be as a City upon a Hill, the eyes of all people are upon us.” The Mayflower Puritans had been driven out of England as subversives. The Puritans saw this religious colony as a model of a social and political order that they believed all of Europe should adopt.

The Puritan movement was part of a sweeping revolt within English society against the ruling feudal order of wealthy lords. Only a few decades after the establishment of Plymouth, the Puritan Revolution came to power in England. They killed the king, won a civil war, set up a short-lived republic, and brutally conquered the neighboring people of Ireland to create a larger national market.

The famous Puritan intolerance was part of a determined attempt to challenge the decadence and wastefulness of the rich aristocratic landlords of England. The Puritans wanted to use the power of state punishment to uproot old and still dominant ways of thinking and behaving.

The new ideas of the Puritans served the needs of merchant capitalist accumulation. The extreme discipline, thrift and modesty the Puritans demanded of each other corresponded to a new and emerging form of ownership and production. Their so-called “Protestant Ethic” was an early form of the capitalist ethic. From the beginning, the Puritan colonies intended to grow through capitalist trade–trading fish and fur with England while they traded pots, knives, axes, alcohol and other English goods with the Indians.

The New England were ruled by a government in which only the male heads of families had a voice. Women, Indians, slaves, servants, youth were neither heard nor represented. In the Puritan schoolbooks, the old law “honor thy father and thy mother” was interpreted to mean honoring “All our Superiors, whether in Family, School, Church, and Commonwealth.” And, the real truth was that the colonies were fundamentally controlled by the most powerful merchants.

The Puritan fathers believed they were the Chosen People of an infinite god and that this justified anything they did. They were Calvinists who believed that the vast majority of humanity was predestined to damnation. This meant that while they were firm in fighting for their own capitalist right to accumulate and prosper, they were quick to oppress the masses of people in Ireland, Scotland and North America, once they seized the power to set up their new bourgeois order. Those who rejected the narrow religious rules of the colonies were often simply expelled “out into the wilderness.”

The Massachusetts colony (north of Plymouth) was founded when Puritan stockholders had gotten control of an English trading company. The king had given this company the right to govern its own internal affairs, and in 1629 the stockholders simply voted to transfer the company to North American shores–making this colony literally a self-governing company of stockholders!

In U.S. schools, students are taught that the Mayflower compact of Plymouth contained the seeds of “modern democracy” and “rule of law.” But by looking at the actual history of the Puritans, we can see that this so-called “modern democracy” was (and still is) a capitalist democracy based on all kinds of oppression and serving the class interests of the ruling capitalists.

In short, the Puritan movement developed as an early revolutionary challenge to the old feudal order in England. They were the soul of primitive capitalist accumulation. And transferred to the shores of North America, they immediately revealed how heartless and oppressive that capitalist soul is.


The Birth of “The American Way of War”

In the Connecticut Valley, the powerful Pequot tribe had not entered an alliance with the British (as had the Narragansett, the Wampanoag, and the Massachusetts peoples). At first they were far from the centers of colonization. Then, in 1633, the British stole the land where the city of Hartford now sits–land which the Pequot had recently conquered from another tribe. That same year two British slave raiders were killed. The colonists demanded that the Indians who killed the slavers be turned over. The Pequot refused.

The Puritan preachers said, from Romans 13:2, “Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” The colonial governments gathered an armed force of 240 under the command of John Mason. They were joined by a thousand Narragansett warriors. The historian Francis Jennings writes: “Mason proposed to avoid attacking Pequot warriors which would have overtaxed his unseasoned, unreliable troops. Battle, as such, was not his purpose. Battle is only one of the ways to destroy an enemy’s will to fight. Massacre can accomplish the same end with less risk, and Mason had determined that massacre would be his objective.”

The colonist army surrounded a fortified Pequot village on the Mystic River. At sunrise, as the inhabitants slept, the Puritan soldiers set the village on fire.

William Bradford, Governor of Plymouth, wrote: “Those that escaped the fire were slain with the sword; some hewed to pieces, others run through with their rapiers, so that they were quickly dispatched and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fire…horrible was the stink and scent thereof, but the victory seemed a sweet sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully for them.”

Mason himself wrote: “It may be demanded…Should not Christians have more mercy and compassion? But…sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents…. We had sufficient light from the word of God for our proceedings.”

Three hundred and fifty years later the Puritan phrase “a shining city on the hill” became a favorite quote of conservative speechwriters.

Discovering the Profits of Slavery

This so-called “Pequot war” was a one-sided murder and slaving expedition. Over 180 captives were taken. After consulting the bible again, in Leviticus 24:44, the colonial authorities found justification to kill most of the Pequot men and enslave the captured women and their children. Only 500 Pequot remained alive and free. In 1975 the official number of Pequot living in Connecticut was 21.

Some of the war captives were given to the Narragansett and Massachusetts allies of the British. Even before the arrival of Europeans, Native peoples of North America had widely practiced taking war captives from other tribes as hostages and slaves.

The remaining captives were sold to British plantation colonies in the West Indies to be worked to death in a new form of slavery that served the emerging capitalist world market. And with that, the merchants of Boston made a historic discovery: the profits they made from the sale of human beings virtually paid for the cost of seizing them.

One account says that enslaving Indians quickly became a “mania with speculators.” These early merchant capitalists of Massachusetts started to make genocide pay for itself. The slave trade, first in captured Indians and soon in kidnapped Africans, quickly became a backbone of New England merchant capitalism.


Thanksgiving in the Manhattan Colony

In 1641 the Dutch governor Kieft of Manhattan offered the first “scalp bounty”–his government paid money for the scalp of each Indian brought to them. A couple years later, Kieft ordered the massacre of the Wappingers, a friendly tribe. Eighty were killed and their severed heads were kicked like soccer balls down the streets of Manhattan. One captive was castrated, skinned alive and forced to eat his own flesh while the Dutch governor watched and laughed. Then Kieft hired the notorious Underhill who had commanded in the Pequot war to carry out a similar massacre near Stamford, Connecticut. The village was set fire, and 500 Indian residents were put to the sword.

A day of thanksgiving was proclaimed in the churches of Manhattan. As we will see, the European colonists declared Thanksgiving Days to celebrate mass murder more often than they did for harvest and friendship.

The Conquest of New England

By the 1670s there were about 30,000 to 40,000 white inhabitants in the United New England Colonies–6,000 to 8,000 able to bear arms. With the Pequot destroyed, the Massachusetts and Plymouth colonists turned on the Wampanoag, the tribe that had saved them in 1620 and probably joined them for the original Thanksgiving Day.

In 1675 a Christian Wampanoag was killed while spying for the Puritans. The Plymouth authorities arrested and executed three Wampanoag without consulting the tribal chief, King Philip.

As Mao Tsetung says: “Where there is oppression there is resistance.” The Wampanoag went to war.

The Indians applied some military lessons they had learned: they waged a guerrilla war which overran isolated European settlements and were often able to inflict casualties on the Puritan soldiers. The colonists again attacked and massacred the main Indian populations.

When this war ended, 600 European men, one-eleventh of the adult men of the New England Colonies, had been killed in battle. Hundreds of homes and 13 settlements had been wiped out. But the colonists won.

In their victory, the settlers launched an all-out genocide against the remaining Native people. The Massachusetts government offered 20 shillings bounty for every Indian scalp, and 40 shillings for every prisoner who could be sold into slavery. Soldiers were allowed to enslave any Indian woman or child under 14 they could capture. The “Praying Indians” who had converted to Christianity and fought on the side of the European troops were accused of shooting into the treetops during battles with “hostiles.” They were enslaved or killed. Other “peaceful” Indians of Dartmouth and Dover were invited to negotiate or seek refuge at trading posts–and were sold onto slave ships.

It is not known how many Indians were sold into slavery, but in this campaign, 500 enslaved Indians were shipped from Plymouth alone. Of the 12,000 Indians in the surrounding tribes, probably about half died from battle, massacre and starvation.

After King Philip’s War, there were almost no Indians left free in the northern British colonies. A colonist wrote from Manhattan’s New York colony: “There is now but few Indians upon the island and those few no ways hurtful. It is to be admired how strangely they have decreased by the hand of God, since the English first settled in these parts.”

In Massachusetts, the colonists declared a “day of public thanksgiving” in 1676, saying, “there now scarce remains a name or family of them [the Indians] but are either slain, captivated or fled.”

Fifty-five years after the original Thanksgiving Day, the Puritans had destroyed the generous Wampanoag and all other neighboring tribes. The Wampanoag chief King Philip was beheaded. His head was stuck on a pole in Plymouth, where the skull still hung on display 24 years later.

The descendants of these Native peoples are found wherever the Puritan merchant capitalists found markets for slaves: the West Indies, the Azures, Algiers, Spain and England. The grandson of Massasoit, the Pilgrim’s original protector, was sold into slavery in Bermuda.
Runaways and Rebels

But even the destruction of Indian tribal life and the enslavement of survivors brought no peace. Indians continued to resist in every available way. Their oppressors lived in terror of a revolt. And they searched for ways to end the resistance. The historian MacLeod writes: “The first `reservations’ were designed for the `wild’ Irish of Ulster in 1609. And the first Indian reservation agent in America, Gookin of Massachusetts, like many other American immigrants had seen service in Ireland under Cromwell.”

The enslaved Indians refused to work and ran away. The Massachusetts government tried to control runaways by marking enslaved Indians: brands were burnt into their skin, and symbols were tattooed into their foreheads and cheeks.

A Massachusetts law of 1695 gave colonists permission to kill Indians at will, declaring it was “lawful for any person, whether English or Indian, that shall find any Indians traveling or skulking in any of the towns or roads (within specified limits), to command them under their guard and examination, or to kill them as they may or can.”

The northern colonists enacted more and more laws for controlling the people. A law in Albany forbade any African or Indian slave from driving a cart within the city. Curfews were set up; Africans and Indians were forbidden to have evening get-togethers. On Block Island, Indians were given 10 lashes for being out after nine o’clock. In 1692 Massachusetts made it a serious crime for any white person to marry an African, an Indian or a mulatto. In 1706 they tried to stop the importation of Indian slaves from other colonies, fearing a slave revolt.

Celebrate?

Looking at this history raises a question: Why should anyone celebrate the survival of the earliest Puritans with a Thanksgiving Day? Certainly the Native peoples of those times had no reason to celebrate.

The ruling powers of the United States organized people to celebrate Thanksgiving Day because it is in their interest. That’s why they created it. The first national celebration of Thanksgiving was called for by George Washington. And the celebration was made a regular legal holiday later by Abraham Lincoln during the civil war (right as he sent troops to suppress the Sioux of Minnesota).

Washington and Lincoln were two presidents deeply involved in trying to forge a unified bourgeois nation-state out of the European settlers in the United States. And the Thanksgiving story was a useful myth in their efforts at U.S. nation-building. It celebrates the “bounty of the American way of life,” while covering up the brutal nature of this society.

Available online at mikeely.wordpress.com. Send comments to: m1keely (at) yahoo.com

Published: December 2007. Feel free to reprint, distribute or quote this with attribution. This website’s contents are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 U.S. License.
 
I'm sorry, Bebonang, but I'm not going to trust an article written by Mike Ely, a hard-core Communist who sees the whole world through that lens.

Mike Ely’s Three Tier Model of Communist Mobilization | The Luxemburgist

His article would not pass muster on Wikipedia without having (citation needed) tags all over it.

That said, the Puritans were indeed religious fundamentalists of the highest order. They are the Grandfathers of today's Calvinist / Dominionist movements. Europe fought a series of wars collectively called the Thirty Years War over nothing but religious arguments. These were brutal, depopulating wars. The Puritan predecessors were part of that.

I don't think the suppression of American Indian culture can be understood without understanding the role that fundamentalist Christianity played in that. Also the sentiment of Nativism, which really grew strong as a movement in the latter half of the 1800s, which was responsible also for suppressing ethnic-European cultures brought in by non-Anglo immigrants, and yes, I think it is responsible for what happened to Deaf people back then, too. The suppression of sign language was argued with Nativist talking-points.

Smallpox and other diseases were very unfortunate, but I find it hard to believe that it was a deliberate infection of the Native American population. The American continents were isolated from the rest of the world for so long, that they were not regularly exposed to the diseases that the rest of the world had built immunities to. Unfortunately, this made the native population sitting ducks. An old-world culture, from somewhere, was destined to make contact with the American continents and inevitably start the spread of disease. If it wasn't the Europeans, it was going to be the Chinese or Japanese. The result would have been the same. Yet, it is constantly touted as a singular sin of European people, even though the whole situation was a ticking time bomb that someone, somewhere, from ANY old-world culture, or Native American explorer discovering the old-world, was going to trip off. There was no way to avoid what happened. It doesn't mean it was deliberate.

Incidentally, Europeans had suffered huge depopulation as a result of the Black Death, bubonic plague. This was because, like the American Indian population, most Europeans had no immunity to it. The ones that lived and had more children were the ones that passed on an immunity to bubonic plague. That wasn't deliberate, either. Unfortunately, we humans are vulnerable to mutations in viruses that could become a super-virus and kill off a huge portion of human kind. The world's health experts live in fear of something like that happening again in today's global society.

I also take exception with what you said before, that Europeans were particularly barbaric. I don't really think so. There is no bad thing that Europeans had done that wasn't also done by American Indians at some point in their history.

Cannibalism (done by both Europeans and American Indians)
Genocide (done by both Europeans and American Indians)
Torture (done by both Europeans and American Indians)
Slavery (done by both Europeans and American Indians)
Kidnapping (done by both Europeans and American Indians)
Excesses of Empire (done by both Europeans and American Indians)

(Not by all American Indian tribes at all times, but I can name examples for all of these.)

These things can be found in cultural histories around the world.

I will agree, however, that due to significant advantages in numbers and technologies, Europeans had perpetuated these things on a far greater scale in a shorter span of time than American Indians ever had.

We will never know how the Chinese or Japanese would have treated the American Indians if they had "discovered" America instead of the Europeans. They had pretty much the same technological level as the Europeans and could easily have been the "discoverers." I think, being human with a significant technological and numerical advantage, they would have exploited that advantage to largely dispossess the American Indian cultures. Human beings are predictable that way.

It means that there is no sainted culture or ethnic group. It means we are all the same in our horrors and glories. That's bad, and that's good, I guess.

It is small consolation, I'm sure, to realize that every one alive today is descended from people who were victimized in some way by the list of human crimes listed above. The only thing we can do, I believe, is to recognize our common humanity and look to the future.
 
^^^^^^^

DeafBadger, where did you get this article? I could not find it anywhere in there. There is no mention between Native Americans and the Pilgrims (the Puritans). This is just a blog from another person who is just giving his thoughts about Mike Ely's thoughts on the Russian revolution or something. I don't think he is the communist if he is live here in United States. If his residence is in Kasma which I have never heard of if not in United States. This article is wrong. I am very disappointed. :(

You produced an article that don't ring anything on truth there. I don't believe in this article that you are producing. I had searched for anything related to this article but none I could not find in the blog.
 
^^^^^^^

DeafBadger, where did you get this article? I could not find it anywhere in there. There is no mention between Native Americans and the Pilgrims (the Puritans). This is just a blog from another person who is just giving his thoughts about Mike Ely's thoughts on the Russian revolution or something. I don't think he is the communist if he is live here in United States. If his residence is in Kasma which I have never heard of if not in United States. This article is wrong. I am very disappointed. :(

You produced an article that don't ring anything on truth there. I don't believe in this article that you are producing. I had searched for anything related to this article but none I could not find in the blog.

The link in my post is there to show that Mike Ely has Communist affiliations. I was only say that I do not trust an article produced by someone who Communist, especially him, since he clearly shows very hard Communist leanings. It's not that he is necessarily "wrong" about some of what he writes, its that his political bias will likely leave out or minimize evidence that does not support his views. Thus, I am just saying that I'm not going to put a lot of weight on Mike Ely's article about Thanksgiving, for that reason. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Both articles, the Thanksgiving article and the Communist article are written by Mike Ely at this site:

http://kasamaproject.org/2010/09/02/a-communist-beginning-what-it-might-look-like/

http://kasamaproject.org/2010/11/13/native-blood-the-myth-of-thanksgiving-3/

The text in my post was written by me, based on what I have read about histories around the world and archeological findings in the Americas (including North and South America).

I'm willing to correct errors, if I feel that there are errors. But unfortunately, I can name examples of everything I mentioned.

The only point that I am trying to make is that there seems to be a narrative popular with some people that seems to suggest that the crimes committed by Europeans were somehow unique to Europeans. Unfortunately, they are not unique crimes. Examples of actions like that can be found in cultures around the world, including American Indian cultures. The truth is that people, human beings, and cultures everywhere have done things like this. Sadly, this was and is something that human beings do, not specific ethnic groups only.

I think it was the technological and numerical advantage (Europeans had advanced technology and more people) that created the conditions whereby these crimes were committed on a greater scale in a shorter period of time than was typical in other cultures or time periods.

I respect you Bebonang, so I hope you take this in the spirit of debate in which it was intended.
 
Just to set the record straight, it was the Separatist Pilgrims, not the Puritans, who arrived on the Mayflower. The Puritans stayed in England, hoping to "purify" the Church, while the Pilgrims completely separated from the Church, theologically and geographically. Also, not everyone on board the Mayflower was a Pilgrim. The crew and some of the servants were not believers. Some were antagonistic towards the Pilgrims for their beliefs.
 
Quoting Mao? Really? Was that from his little red book? :roll:
 
Back
Top