quick question

cayisforgetul

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Several times I've seen the wiggling index finger to mean a question mark or "?" at the end of a question. Is this more SEE? or outdated? Only used in certain situations? Or completely optional? like instead of signing "you hungry*facial expression*" you could just sign "hungry *?*"

I don't quite get it. I've seen it in a childrens TV show, in movies, and seen people use it.
 
This is a totally unrelated quick question, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread, so figured this was a good a place as any to post MY quick question too.

A little background. I pick up accents VERY easily when I hear them. If I talk to a southerner with a strong accent, then if I'm not careful I start to speak that way. In high school when learning Spanish my teacher was from Spain, and I had that accent until I went to college and all my professors were from Central America and I slowly switched to that accent. Since I've gone to Spain recently a couple of times, a few "Spain-isms" creep back in now and then.

Well, the same thing has happened in ASL. Sort of. I am very much a left-handed person. I love being a lefty. It makes me sort of different. And of course I started signing left-handed. I'm not sure how, but by being taught by a right-handed teacher and sharing a classroom with a right-handed ASL teacher, and the vast majority of the world being right-handed, I started to sign more right-handed.

So I have a bit of a mixed-hand thing going on. I'm trying to focus on keeping my left hand my dominant one ('cause I love my lefty identity), but some right-handed signs still come out.

My questions is: How annoying is that to talk with a switch-hitter like that? I'm working on it, but just want to know if the effort to re-claim my lefty-ness is driving everyone around me absolutely nuts and they're just too nice to tell me.
 
Stick with the left hand dominant.
 
"I've seen the wiggling index finger to mean a question mark or "?"

by "wiggling" do you mean the repeated straightening and bending of the index instead of tracing a "?" in the air?

If so - it depends on context, as well as location (meaning it can be a regionalism).


My questions is: How annoying is that to talk with a switch-hitter like that? I'm working on it, but just want to know if the effort to re-claim my lefty-ness is driving everyone around me absolutely nuts and they're just too nice to tell me.

Like Reba said - sign with your dominant hand, don't switch. If you feel you for some reason need to sign right-handed, then only sign right-handed.

Switching back and forth is a huge no-no. It's messy and makes it very difficult to follow a lot of meanings because of how ASL uses the signing space (and placement) to explain various things... it would be like randomly switching between various tenses, accents, and tossing in some "pig-latin" to every sentence/phrase.

The faster you curb the habit the better.
 
Anij, yes, that is exactly what I mean. I forgot about regionalism...but context, can you give me a small example of when I could use it? I mean, to me, it just seems easier to sign "hungry *?*" if you're busy or really tired, but I don't want to take the lazy/incorrect/easier way either.

I also had another question I'll post here.

When I'm signing, I tend to sign very PSE (or maybe it's more SEE and I just dont' realize it.) I omit some words that I don't feel are needed, don't always use English grammar/word for word, and don't use "a" "an" "the" "ing" etc. Is it...insulting/annoying/hard to follow, I guess, for me to keep signing this way until I learn more vocabulary and feel more comfortable?

LAST question for a while, I promise. When I'm signing with someone, and we have a moment of "both trying to sign at once, then we both stop to let the other go" how can I let them know to go ahead? The best sign I could think of was "continue."
 
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Thanks for the "accent" advice. Trust me, I don't try to switch hands...I do tend to stick with one hand per "turn" in a conversation. I don't switch mid-sentence that I am aware of, because that would probably feel weird. I am really focusing on squashing this bad habit, I will try to keep more of an eye on myself. (At least I just know this about me as a linguist in general. I'm an equal opportunity annoyer.)
 
Thanks for the "accent" advice. Trust me, I don't try to switch hands...I do tend to stick with one hand per "turn" in a conversation. I don't switch mid-sentence that I am aware of, because that would probably feel weird. I am really focusing on squashing this bad habit, I will try to keep more of an eye on myself. (At least I just know this about me as a linguist in general. I'm an equal opportunity annoyer.)

I'm functionally ambidextrous, so I understand the ability to "flip handedness" ... what will likely help the most is practising in front of a mirror where you can see yourself. Almost always the hand that is moving should be your dominant - ie if you're signing "MEAN" (context, "what does that MEAN") your dominant hand is the one making the "V" handshape, while your non-dominant is a "closed 5/ open B".

Also, make sure to let your teacher, and signing friends etc know that you're working on the issue, but if they notice you flipping left to right, to please bring it to your attention ... that will help a lot, and it's something they'll notice more than you.

Of course, it's a different situation if you are one-handed signing with your non-dominant hand because you are carrying something in your usual dominant hand ... when I'm carrying books, coffee, baby/toddler etc I will use the "free" hand to talk, whichever it is... however I don't flip back until I've put down the items or moved them to my non-dominant hand etc.
 
Anij, yes, that is exactly what I mean. I forgot about regionalism...but context, can you give me a small example of when I could use it? I mean, to me, it just seems easier to sign "hungry *?*" if you're busy or really tired, but I don't want to take the lazy/incorrect/easier way either.

It really depends on the context, and what the sign is that is preceding (ie is my hand already up in that position, for fingerspelling etc). For things like "are you hungry", I'd sign "HUNGRY" and then use appropriate facial grammar to make it a question.

I mostly use the "question" (index flex) to emphasis that what asking IS a question ... or to indicate I have a question I'd like to ask etc. It's sort of tricky to explain (for me at least) because it's almost an un-conscious thing I add as needed (again usually to clarify or emphasis facial grammar).

Maybe someone else can give a better more concrete example.




I also had another question I'll post here.

When I'm signing, I tend to sign very PSE (or maybe it's more SEE and I just dont' realize it.) I omit some words that I don't feel are needed, don't always use English grammar/word for word, and don't use "a" "an" "the" "ing" etc. Is it...insulting/annoying/hard to follow, I guess, for me to keep signing this way until I learn more vocabulary and feel more comfortable?

Really the best thing to do (sooner rather than later) is to get some books on ASL grammar, and see if you might be able to borrow some ASL videos from a local Deaf Community Centre or Deaf School library (some schools will allow you to borrow IF you offer a deposit worth the cost of the DVD, then when you return it, you get your money back provided the DVD is in the same condition).

It can be very hard to follow, espeically for those who's first language is ASL - sort of like if someone applied French/Spanish/German grammar rules to English words and spoke that way. For example if I say "I went to the store to buy some apples" the meaning would be clear, however if I said "store apples I buy them went" ... you'd have to puzzle through and make a lot of guesses as to what I may have meant, but you'd also be likely to misunderstand if I had gone, was going, needed to go, or if I was going to the store for the apples, or I was at the store and they had apples so I got them (timeline, tenses, and intent of action).

Taking the time to learn at least the basics of ASL grammar structure will be a huge advantage, because ASL is meant to use movement and space to fill in the complete picture - but it only works if the grammar is used (reasonably) correctly.

It's also a sign of respect. ASL is our (Hoh/Deaf) language ... it's beautiful, it's intricate, and complex ... but it is NOT "English edited/taken out of order and put on the hands". ASL is more than just signs put together, in the same way that English is more than just words put together. If you really want to learn and use ASL, then taking the time and effort to learn both vocabulary AND grammar is very very important.
In most situations, I think you're also MUCH more likely to find Hoh and Deaf ASLers willing to help you out if you show that you are trying to use our ASL grammar, not SEE (which isn't a language at all) type English word order, thinking it's "ASL-like".



LAST question for a while, I promise. When I'm signing with someone, and we have a moment of "both trying to sign at once, then we both stop to let the other go" how can I let them know to go ahead? The best sign I could think of was "continue."

There's a few of ways to do this ... the two I use most of the time (I think?) are:

I put my hand out in front of me and gesture, sort of the same way you'd indicate someone to go in front of you in a line/doorway etc. It's sort of a "closed 5/ open B" palm up facing in sort of at an angle like "/" for righties (or "\" for lefties)

A modified version of the sign "TURN" (as in your turn / next turn) made with a "L" hand (palm in).

HTH
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm still foggy about the *?* question, but that's okay, I'll learn in time.

My biggest worry is ASL grammar. To be honest, I don't know a thing about ENGLISH grammar. I never LEARNED it, I just ABSORBED it. I can't tell you why something is, I just know it is. And that really bothers me, and makes me feel like I'll never even begin to pick up ASL grammar. But I am willing to try, and believe me I do try. Being learning disabled makes things a little harder...but all I can do is keep trying.


Also, if the sign for "go ahead," I like the first one you did. After seeing the sign "turn" it's kind of difficult-looking...so I'll probably stick with your first one, or "continue," until I find something I like better.

Again thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
 
I'm functionally ambidextrous, so I understand the ability to "flip handedness" ... what will likely help the most is practising in front of a mirror where you can see yourself. Almost always the hand that is moving should be your dominant - ie if you're signing "MEAN" (context, "what does that MEAN") your dominant hand is the one making the "V" handshape, while your non-dominant is a "closed 5/ open B".

Also, make sure to let your teacher, and signing friends etc know that you're working on the issue, but if they notice you flipping left to right, to please bring it to your attention ... that will help a lot, and it's something they'll notice more than you.

Never actually thought of telling people to call me on this. I will do that. I don't know about the mirror thing. I HATE watching myself in the mirror. At dance class I always lined myself up with the pillar so I didn't have to see myself. But I will tell my friends to call me on this. (Seriously, other than this little issue, I am basically a fluent signer!) So I am not confused about which hand TO use. Just about which hand I AM using. If that makes any sense. I'm just going to take advantage of cold Wisconsin weather and wear a glove on the left and a mitten on the right for a while. Lol!
 
My take on the "wiggly question mark" is that it is used after a long lead-up to a question as some emphasis that there is a question there waiting for an answer. So not after "are you hungry" but after something like "so, Friday is the day of the picnic, and I heard it was going to rain. If it does rain on Friday, are you still going to the picnic?"

As for learning grammar, acquiring it is great, that is how most people do their first language, and then after you have learned the language for a few years you start to study the grammar. (Guess who is the language acquisition person on this board? I'm a language teacher and have researched this a lot.) But most people can use the language without ever actually knowing the WHY. That is why so many people have done so poorly in foreign language classes. Too much focus on the WHY without enough focus on just DOING it. But that is another story. My point is that if you managed to learn to speak English well enough to communicate (and your learning disability isn't specifically a language-processing disorder) then you should have no problem learning ASL...depending on how it is taught. You would probably do better learning by just getting a start and then hanging out with deaf people. There the focus is more on communication than on perfection. You'll be progressing much faster that way!
 
Wirelessly posted

Great thread!!! Very informative.

Can anyone recomend some books or something to help learn the grammer.
 
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