Poor aided results above 500Hz

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deafdude1

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Those are the aided scores I did using my speakers, a tone generator and a db SPL meter(60db to 126db range). I also used this Damping of sound level with distance - damping calculation distance calculator dB - sengpielaudio
to calculate SPL decreasing with distance. I had my dad listen to a 1500Hz puretone at 40db which he could easily hear from 15 feet that I could only barely hear from half a foot measured at 70db SPL. Note that I set the volume to 70db as measured with SPL meter and calculated the sound to be 40db at the 15 feet distance he stood from.

125Hz: 20db(45 gain)
250Hz: 15db(55 gain)
500Hz: 25db(65 gain)
750Hz: 40db(65 gain)
1000Hz: 50db(60 gain)
1500Hz: 70db(40 gain)
2000Hz: 80db(35 gain)

No response at 3000Hz and up. That surprised me since my hearing aids have enough SPL for 3000Hz. It could be possible my audie didn't program any gain above 2000Hz, that's one question ill be asking him. Im also wondering why my aided scores are so poor in the mid frequencies. I tried my old Widex Senso HAs and I hear even worse with them. My dad says my audie probably maxed the gains in the mids. I should be aided down to 40db at 1500Hz given the gain my HA is capable at that frequency! But then my old Widex Senso HAs scored even worse.

My only logical explanation is that the gains listed on the technicial documents is hyped, exaggerated or a best case example. But how does one explain that my gains at the low frequency is close to max specs but so far off in the mids and highs? I am not getting any feedback from my molds, there is no damage to my molds, tube or HAs and when I double check with my old HAs, results are even worse.

I know the test was done at home but I knew something was wrong even without testing. When playing my piano, the volume decreased drastically each ascending key I played. I couldn't hear the last 10 keys either. I have done many other online hearing tests and the results are repeatable and consistant on mine and other computers and speakers. I also don't seem to be getting the claimed max SPL either. Sounds above 1000Hz are very faint no matter how loud I crank up the volume. I do know that 10db above my treshold, I can easily hear a given sound. Such as give 100db HL at 500Hz and I easily hear that sound. It seems im only getting about 115db SPL at 1500Hz and 2000Hz. Im probably getting 15 to 20db less SPL at all frequencies but im not complaining at 1000Hz and below as I don't really need such high SPL and I wouldn't even want the max 142 SPL at 1000Hz since it probably will be painful and may damage my residual hearing. How much SPL max is safe? 120db? 125db? 130db? If SPL can be programmed(another thing to ask my audie) id ask him the max safe SPL and is it the same for all frequencies?

Naida V UP gain/SPL:

125Hz 65db/123db
250Hz 68db/126db
500Hz 72db/130db
750Hz 76db/136db
1000Hz 82db/142db
1500Hz 73db/130db
2000Hz 70db/130db
3000Hz 65db/128db
4000Hz 60db/119db

The above max gain and SPL as listed in my specification sheet for my type of HA. Thanks for reading the above, maybe youll have some good answers, especially you audiologists. Ill also ask my audiologist.
 
Hear Again said:
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you just wrote. :dizzy:
Click to expand...

I can explain it further. It also applies to you. Before you got CI's you had 90db loss at 250Hz, 105db at 500Hz, 120db at 750Hz and NR above that. Your aided results were 60db at 250Hz and 500Hz, 70db at 750Hz. This means your gain was 30db, 45db and 50db respectivately. Were they/yours not programmed to the max? My audiologist says he programmed them 90% of maximum, yet im only getting about 60% of the max gains my HAs supposedly can do. Were your HAs before CI programmed to the max, if not why? If they were maxed out, that makes two of us wondering why so little gain?
 
deafdude1 said:
I can explain it further. It also applies to you. Before you got CI's you had 90db loss at 250Hz, 105db at 500Hz, 120db at 750Hz and NR above that. Your aided results were 60db at 250Hz and 500Hz, 70db at 750Hz. This means your gain was 30db, 45db and 50db respectivately. Were they/yours not programmed to the max? My audiologist says he programmed them 90% of maximum, yet im only getting about 60% of the max gains my HAs supposedly can do. Were your HAs before CI programmed to the max, if not why? If they were maxed out, that makes two of us wondering why so little gain?
Click to expand...

My former hearing aid audi tried every programming scenario possible with my hearing aids including increasing the gain at my request even though she advised against it since this would cause lack of clarity. (Note: We did this for my digital Oticon DigiFocus II super power BTEs and my analog Oticon 380Ps) It didn't make any difference though because the only thing I could hear was distortion. If someone spoke to me at a normal volume from a foot away, their voice was barely audible. My CI audi even shouted in my ear during my initial CI evaluation while I was wearing hearing aids to see if it caused any pain, but it didn't. I told her that it wasn't any different than hearing someone talking at a normal volume level.

I didn't make the decision to receive a CI lightly. Before I even considered a CI, I looked into the possibility of having an MEI (middle ear implant), but was told by a specialist that I didn't have enough residual hearing.

Once I received that news, I spent 6 months researching CIs.

At my first CI evaluation, I asked the audi if I could try transpositional aids. She discouraged me and said that most people who use transpositional aids have a great deal of difficulty adjusting to them. She also said the transition would be even more difficult for me given the fact that I used analog hearing aids since 1985.

As far as the amount of gain is concerned, all of my hearing aid audis have told me that a person should expect to receive no more than 20 dB of aided gain (although there are always exceptions).
 
I emailed my audiologist(he's also my 2nd cousin) some questions. They are similar to the ones I posted in this thread concerning poor results above 500Hz. Hopefully his answers can shed some light. Im also curious about upcomming HAs that will finally help me hear loud and clear above 1000Hz.

Thanks for your last reply. Ive been wearing my hearing aids more and training them in speech, sounds and music. Here's some more questions:



1. Could we have the cable and software mailed to us so I could program all the different features and gradually adjust the gain and SPL to see if this helps me hear better?



2. Has transposition been programmed on my hearing aids, if yes what frequencies become transpositioned? So far I have not been able to notice any transposition, maybe it should be reprogrammed?



3. Does programming change the SPL or just the gains? I notice that my HAs can give an SPL of up to 142db at 1000Hz. Wouldn't every audiologist need to program that SPL down to 120-130db or it could be uncomfortable or even damage your residual hearing?



4. From the puretone testing ive done at home(computer speakers, online hearing tests, tone generator), I got the following results:



125Hz: 20db(45 gain)
250Hz: 15db(55 gain)
500Hz: 25db(65 gain)
750Hz: 40db(65 gain)
1000Hz: 50db(60 gain)
1500Hz: 70db(40 gain)
2000Hz: 80db(35 gain)


The faintest sounds I can hear are great at 500Hz and below but at 1500Hz a sound below 70db can't be heard by me but my dad can easily hear it across the room. Any idea why im getting so little gain in the mid to high frequencies? I tried my old Widex Senso and I hear even worse with them. According to the specs of the Naidia V UP, I should get the following:



Naida V UP gain/SPL:

125Hz 65db/123db
250Hz 68db/126db
500Hz 72db/130db
750Hz 76db/136db
1000Hz 82db/142db
1500Hz 73db/130db
2000Hz 70db/130db
3000Hz 65db/128db
4000Hz 60db/119db



5. Ive looked online and couldn't find much info on what new hearing aids will be developed in the near future. If there's any info you know and are allowed to disclose, how much louder and better will they be than todays best HA and the HA I got from you a few months ago? Will the future HAs be able to give up to 100db gain and will it give a gain of 70+ db at mid and high frequencies? Do you know any websites that discuss upcomming hearing aid technology?



Thanks again for your time and answers!
 
Hear Again said:
My former hearing aid audi tried every programming scenario possible with my hearing aids including increasing the gain at my request even though she advised against it since this would cause lack of clarity. (Note: We did this for my digital Oticon DigiFocus II super power BTEs and my analog Oticon 380Ps) It didn't make any difference though because the only thing I could hear was distortion.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't a little distortion be worth hearing so much more environmental sounds and louder? My HAs have a volume control and I definately hear worse if I turn the volume down. Sure there might be a little less distortion but then it sounds as if everyone is whispering, also environmental sounds are too faint and many sounds aren't audiable.


If someone spoke to me at a normal volume from a foot away, their voice was barely audible. My CI audi even shouted in my ear during my initial CI evaluation while I was wearing hearing aids to see if it caused any pain, but it didn't. I told her that it wasn't any different than hearing someone talking at a normal volume level.
Click to expand...

This is why I have my gains turned up so I hear better and louder. Maybe not clearer but the point of my HAs is to amplify otherwise I simply hear almost nothing.

I didn't make the decision to receive a CI lightly. Before I even considered a CI, I looked into the possibility of having an MEI (middle ear implant), but was told by a specialist that I didn't have enough residual hearing.
Click to expand...

I understand your choice. As for MEI, is that basically an implanted HA? I also probably wouldn't qualify for any implanted HA and even if I did, probably can't give me the gains/SPL that my Naidia V UP or a CI can. If I had enough residual hearing, why wouldn't I simply use a mini open fit BTE or even a CIC hearing aid instead of risking surgery?

Once I received that news, I spent 6 months researching CIs.
At my first CI evaluation, I asked the audi if I could try transpositional aids. She discouraged me and said that most people who use transpositional aids have a great deal of difficulty adjusting to them. She also said the transition would be even more difficult for me given the fact that I used analog hearing aids since 1985.
Click to expand...

Everyone should spend at least 6 months researching any surgical procedure that isn't about saving your life. I don't believe in elective/cosmetic surgeries to fix what aren't broke, but CI does fix/improve deafness so I am not against CI. I am only against some people getting CI for the wrong reasons but I agree you had the right reasons. If my hearing was as bad as yours, id probably get a CI too. Can transpositional aids transposition to a frequency below 1500Hz? Is the Phonak Naidia the only transpositional HAs currently out?

As far as the amount of gain is concerned, all of my hearing aid audis have told me that a person should expect to receive no more than 20 dB of aided gain (although there are always exceptions).
Click to expand...

You mean that 20db would be the treshold, not that 20db would be the max gain? I already get that in the low frequencies(500Hz and below) but im nowhere near that above 500Hz. I do not expect to get down to 20db but my math tells me I could still improve my aided hearing significantally. For example, the company who makes my HA claims a max gain of 73db at 1500Hz, yet im only getting 40db gain so I should get up to another 33db gain. My audie told me when he fitted my HAs that he programmed the gains to 90% of max and we assume 100% max at mid and high frequencies.

Am I the only one experiencing that problem or are others also noticing they aren't getting the gains they should?
 
"Wouldn't a little distortion be worth hearing so much more environmental sounds and louder? My HAs have a volume control and I definately hear worse if I turn the volume down. Sure there might be a little less distortion but then it sounds as if everyone is whispering, also environmental sounds are too faint and many sounds aren't audiable."

Why add more gain when I could already hear a majority of environmental sounds? I had good low frequency hearing. (i.e. 60-70 dB aided)
 
No offense, but if I were as concerned about gain, frequency response, etc. as you are deafdude, it would drive me crazy and I'd stop wearing hearing aids. I'm just speaking for myself.
 
"This is why I have my gains turned up so I hear better and louder. Maybe not clearer but the point of my HAs is to amplify otherwise I simply hear almost nothing."

Again, as I mentioned before, the gain on my analog and digital hearing aids were turned up as high as possible (against my audi's wishes) yet I still could not understand speech. Hearing environmental sounds wasn't a problem for me. I had good low frequency hearing, so there was no need for me to amplify what I could already hear.
 
"I understand your choice. As for MEI, is that basically an implanted HA? I also probably wouldn't qualify for any implanted HA and even if I did, probably can't give me the gains/SPL that my Naidia V UP or a CI can. If I had enough residual hearing, why wouldn't I simply use a mini open fit BTE or even a CIC hearing aid instead of risking surgery?"

Yes -- an MEI is an implantable hearing aid. It consists of an internal magnet as well as an external magnet similar to a CI. The device is controlled with a remote.

As for why people choose to get MEIs, there are many different reasons: tinnitus, frequent ear infections, rapid decrease in hearing (but not enough to qualify for a CI), being frustrated with hearing aids, etc.
 
Hear Again said:
"This is why I have my gains turned up so I hear better and louder. Maybe not clearer but the point of my HAs is to amplify otherwise I simply hear almost nothing."

Again, as I mentioned before, the gain on my analog and digital hearing aids were turned up as high as possible (against my audi's wishes) yet I still could not understand speech. Hearing environmental sounds wasn't a problem for me. I had good low frequency hearing, so there was no need for me to amplify what I could already hear.
Click to expand...

I totally agree...I maxed out everything I could with my HAs. The environmental sounds weren't a problem, it was the speech that was the issue. It sounded so distorted. Imagine having someone covering their mouth and talking...I can hear their voice, but I cannot make a damn thing that they say. This is how it was for me on a daily basis until I got the CI. When I got the CI, it added all the frequencies that I needed in order to understand speech and the clarity. The environmental sounds sound pretty much exactly the same, but with high frequencies added to it.

Again - If you don't have the ability to hear the High frequencies - it's not your HA, it's the residual hearing that you have. I noticed that you have at 120db...you will never be able to hear at the same level as a hearing person who can hear high frequencies, no matter what HA's you have. When you get older, it's going to become NR. I was able to hear the higher frequencies when I was younger, but I have a progressive loss, and it got to the point where i couldn't hear anything. HA will not help, only CI.
 
"Can transpositional aids transposition to a frequency below 1500Hz? Is the Phonak Naidia the only transpositional HAs currently out?"

Yes, they can. They take high frequencies and bring them down into the 250-750 Hz range.

To answer your second question, no. The Widex Inteo is also a transpositional aid.
 
deafdude1 said:
I emailed my audiologist(he's also my 2nd cousin) some questions. They are similar to the ones I posted in this thread concerning poor results above 500Hz. Hopefully his answers can shed some light. Im also curious about upcomming HAs that will finally help me hear loud and clear above 1000Hz.

Thanks for your last reply. Ive been wearing my hearing aids more and training them in speech, sounds and music. Here's some more questions:



1. Could we have the cable and software mailed to us so I could program all the different features and gradually adjust the gain and SPL to see if this helps me hear better?



2. Has transposition been programmed on my hearing aids, if yes what frequencies become transpositioned? So far I have not been able to notice any transposition, maybe it should be reprogrammed?



3. Does programming change the SPL or just the gains? I notice that my HAs can give an SPL of up to 142db at 1000Hz. Wouldn't every audiologist need to program that SPL down to 120-130db or it could be uncomfortable or even damage your residual hearing?



4. From the puretone testing ive done at home(computer speakers, online hearing tests, tone generator), I got the following results:



125Hz: 20db(45 gain)
250Hz: 15db(55 gain)
500Hz: 25db(65 gain)
750Hz: 40db(65 gain)
1000Hz: 50db(60 gain)
1500Hz: 70db(40 gain)
2000Hz: 80db(35 gain)


The faintest sounds I can hear are great at 500Hz and below but at 1500Hz a sound below 70db can't be heard by me but my dad can easily hear it across the room. Any idea why im getting so little gain in the mid to high frequencies? I tried my old Widex Senso and I hear even worse with them. According to the specs of the Naidia V UP, I should get the following:



Naida V UP gain/SPL:

125Hz 65db/123db
250Hz 68db/126db
500Hz 72db/130db
750Hz 76db/136db
1000Hz 82db/142db
1500Hz 73db/130db
2000Hz 70db/130db
3000Hz 65db/128db
4000Hz 60db/119db



5. Ive looked online and couldn't find much info on what new hearing aids will be developed in the near future. If there's any info you know and are allowed to disclose, how much louder and better will they be than todays best HA and the HA I got from you a few months ago? Will the future HAs be able to give up to 100db gain and will it give a gain of 70+ db at mid and high frequencies? Do you know any websites that discuss upcomming hearing aid technology?



Thanks again for your time and answers!
Click to expand...

Phonak has downloadeable software you can use for evaluation and checking out the media player function, but you need a HiPro device or iCube to connect the aids to the software. Here's the download link:

Phonak hearing systems - Software Download

Good Luck!!
 
"Again - If you don't have the ability to hear the High frequencies - it's not your HA, it's the residual hearing that you have."

This is what my CI audi told me as well. She said there was no way to improve my aided hearing (i.e. 60-70 dB in the low frequencies) due to my residual hearing. In her words, "you can't add something that you don't have."
 
Hear Again said:
Why add more gain when I could already hear a majority of environmental sounds? I had good low frequency hearing. (i.e. 60-70 dB aided)
Click to expand...


If I could get by hearing at 70db, why am I even wearing HAs? My HL at 250Hz is 70db. I can tell you right now I hear maybe 2% of environmental sounds with a 70db HL. I remember when I was little, I tried a "sound amplifier type of hearing aid" for $69.95 at the mall. It was pretty much useless. If it worked half decently, my dad would of bought me a pair. There's a reason I needed expensive $1500 hearing aids(cost is for each!), the cheap ones are simply way too weak for anything more than a mild loss.

If you could get by with 60-70db aided, may I ask why you didn't go with a cheap, low gain/power hearing aid or perhaps use a CIC or open fit? Even those would give you the 30db gain.

Hear Again said:
No offense, but if I were as concerned about gain, frequency response, etc. as you are deafdude, it would drive me crazy and I'd stop wearing hearing aids. I'm just speaking for myself.
Click to expand...

Oh, im not gonna stop wearing HAs, I just feel there is more potental to further aid my hearing and I am simply learning all I can. :)

Hear Again said:

Again, as I mentioned before, the gain on my analog and digital hearing aids were turned up as high as possible (against my audi's wishes) yet I still could not understand speech. Hearing environmental sounds wasn't a problem for me. I had good low frequency hearing, so there was no need for me to amplify what I could already hear.
Click to expand...


I guess it's different for me. While I also don't understand most speech, there's some environmental sounds as well as music I don't properly hear. The low frequencies have never been a problem for me either and I honestly feel I should be getting alot more gain at mids/highs than what im currently getting. Ive read the manufactor's spec sheet and im getting nowhere near the gain they claim I should get. That's what im investigating now. I want to amplify frequencies above 500Hz and I know my HAs *should* be giving me more gain at that.

Hear Again said:

As for why people choose to get MEIs, there are many different reasons: tinnitus, frequent ear infections, rapid decrease in hearing (but not enough to qualify for a CI), being frustrated with hearing aids, etc.
Click to expand...


If MEI's won't benefit me more than HAs or they will be worse than a CI, then MEI's aren't for me.

LadySekhmet said:
I totally agree...I maxed out everything I could with my HAs. The environmental sounds weren't a problem, it was the speech that was the issue. It sounded so distorted. Imagine having someone covering their mouth and talking...I can hear their voice, but I cannot make a damn thing that they say.
Click to expand...

My audiologist still thinks I just need to train my ears and ill see significent improvements. Ive already emailed him a bunch of questions(I posted it here too) Just out of curiousity, do you have an audiogram of your aided score with HAs before you went CI? We have a similar HL and if your aided score was better with HAs then me, this is proof I could be hearing better.

This is how it was for me on a daily basis until I got the CI. When I got the CI, it added all the frequencies that I needed in order to understand speech and the clarity. The environmental sounds sound pretty much exactly the same, but with high frequencies added to it.
Click to expand...

May I ask what % of environmental sounds compose of high(er) frequencies? For the same sounds, did the addition of high(er) frequencies cause the same sound to be different?

Again - If you don't have the ability to hear the High frequencies - it's not your HA, it's the residual hearing that you have. I noticed that you have at 120db...you will never be able to hear at the same level as a hearing person who can hear high frequencies, no matter what HA's you have. When you get older, it's going to become NR. I was able to hear the higher frequencies when I was younger, but I have a progressive loss, and it got to the point where i couldn't hear anything. HA will not help, only CI.
Click to expand...

I understand and accept ill probably never hear 4000Hz and above, even my audie told me this. However I do hear 2000Hz, just not loud enough and not close to as loud as I should be. I want to determine if it's my HA or my ears. Ive mentioned before that the spec sheet for my HAs have a fitting range that extends down to 120db and they claim itll work up to 120db loss. Also theres a chart showing how much gain those HAs give and if I got as much gain as shown in their chart, id hear wonderfully at 2000Hz. Ill probably lose my ability to hear 2000Hz someday, ill see what to do when that time comes. Technology will be vastly different by then.
 
If you could get by with 60-70db aided, may I ask why you didn't go with a cheap, low gain/power hearing aid or perhaps use a CIC or open fit? Even those would give you the 30db gain."

What's wrong with being able to hear at 70 dB aided? If I had to pick between hearing at 70 dB with hearing aids vs. hearing zilch without them, I'd pick the former.

Cheap, open fit and CIC aids would not have given me any benefit. If they would have given me 30 dB gain like you claim, why during the 20+ years I've worn hearing aids haven't any of my audis recommended them for me? Open fit aids are designed for people with mild to moderate loss who have residual hearing in all frequencies. I had profound loss in my left ear and severe-profound in my right. Mind you, I also had NR at 1000 Hz and above. With that being the case, there's no way they would have benefitted me. Furthermore, I was using the strongest hearing aids available on the market and had them programmed for maximum gain as well as having them turned up to the highest volume.
 
I wish SteveAuD were still a member here. I'm sure he could explain why increasing gain doesn't always help someone with severe-profound or profound hearing loss understand speech.
 
"If MEI's won't benefit me more than HAs or they will be worse than a CI, then MEI's aren't for me."

The same can be said for hearing aids. Not everyone benefits from them.
 
"If you could get by with 60-70db aided, may I ask why you didn't go with a cheap, low gain/power hearing aid or perhaps use a CIC or open fit? Even those would give you the 30db gain."

I'll throw that question right back at you. Why aren't you wearing cheap, open fit or CIC aids when you have aided scores of 20-30 dB?
 
deafdude1 said:
May I ask what % of environmental sounds compose of high(er) frequencies? For the same sounds, did the addition of high(er) frequencies cause the same sound to be different?
Click to expand...

Hmm, I talked to my fiance, who is hearing, he says not that much for high frequencies, probably 1/4 of the environmental sounds is strictly high frequencies. Such as: birds, high notes in piano/flute/opera, crickets, mosiqutio ringtones (teens can hear this), computer fans, etc. There are many sounds that are midrange that also has high frequency pitches, such as microwave beeps, police sirens, speech, etc.

The addition of the higher frequencies made it sound more fuller and clearer. For example - A police siren - in the past I could hear the woo..the low frequency part of it, but when it hits the high note, I could BARELY hear it. It sounded too quiet. If I'm standing near it, then I could hear it, but not when it's a mile away. Now, with CI I can hear it coming from mile away.

I can pick up the higher notes in music, so it gives me a much more fuller listening range than what I used to. High frequency played a huge role for me in clarity.

Good luck with getting your aids up to what you want! :)
 
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