Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[rick48]

Thank you for your posting. You created the words I couldn't because of emotions. All I see are visions of my Grandfather telling about his childhood in Germany. The events and details and most importantly the fear and sadness in his eyes.

vallee,

No thank you for those very personal and touching words.
Rick

 

[Buffalo]

I agree that it is best not to argue the Holocaust issue but let us not lose sight for one moment that the comparison of the cochlear implant for children to the Holocaust by Bienvenu was intentional and designed to invoke the most negative images imaginable.

We all agree that the Holocaust, the political and social agenda of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime, led to the mass murder of millions of people. Hitler, if not the most reviled man in history, was at the very least the most reviled man of the 20th Century. What Bienvenu and her supporters are asking us to do is to suspend reality and rational thinking and to compare children receiving cochlear implants with the mass extermination of millions on an unprecedented scale. Such a comparison is not only fallacious but demeaning not just to those who lost their lives in the Holocaust or to their loved ones but to all of mankind.

It is an extremely poor choice to use as a comparison and in my opinion used by Bienvenu not to engender any productive discussion but rather to further divide and polarize people.

You say that there are those in the US who want to "get rid of the deaf", what exactly do you mean by that? Who are they? Can you name one person, one organization in the United States that advocates your allegation?

Rick

You are saying that because you are not being realistic. I dare you to find a deaf cashier (newly hired) and hang around at that store to listen in the comments made by hearing customers. I'd bet you would hear at least one negative comment. It is the prevailing attitude toward the deaf people that is still with us. That can easily be translated into eugenics later on.

Open your eyes. The British Parliament is talking about Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and the clause 14 - http://www.grumpyoldeafies.com/2007/11/parliament_deaf_embryo_select.html . Parents should decided on the fetus but for the deaf parents...the government is looking over their shoulders to make sure that they don't choose a deaf embroyo. This is eugenics. Face it. Once it became legal, the other countries are going to go for it.

Did you miss the one where Shel90 was telling us about a lady who think that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf babies to have CI? I can't find that post but here is Jillio's post (Jillo, I hope you will forgive me for bring this back) which speak for me - http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...5-deaf-view-ci-kid-its-bummer.html#post844967. I agree that it is the hearings' attitude toward us deaf people that causes us alot of problems and heartaches. I see it the same as the Holocaust. I came across an old German book full of short stories for the kids that is translated into English. In it, a Jewish person was viewed in a very negative light. That is when I realized that the Holocaust was started because of the prevailing attitude toward the Jewish people. Holocaust is not only about the Jewish people but it is also about Gypsy people and people with any disability (Yes, deaf people, too) and any people who opposed the government. (More on this in Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims - 5 Million!) They do kill some of the deaf Germans and sterilized other deaf Germans. (Harry Freidlander & Horst Biesold's "Crying Hands: Eugenics and the Deaf People in the Nazi Germany" - you can get it from Amazon.com - I have been to Horst Biesold's lecture back in early 80's). An important point I want to point out came from the review of Harry Freidlander's "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution", the Nazi started with the handicapped people first then later expanded to disabled Jewish people and disabled Gypsy people. Looks like the British Parliament is about to repeat that terrible history.

This link Eugenics Apologies already told us of the eugenics movement in the past. Rick, What makes you think that it won't happen again??? Once the British pass their law, what makes you think that the USA won't copy them? Pull your head out of the sand and face the hard truth.

The hearing people have chutzpah in interfering with our education, our jobs, and our reproduction rights and then complaining about some of the deaf people being on the social security disability, not realizing that the hearing people are the ones putting those deaf people in that position. Some hearing people seem to think that CI will solve all the problems. No, the CI won't change the deaf person's situation. They will still look down on the deaf person with CI. I see that analogy with Jewish people who converted to Christianity and still end up in the concentration camps just because they have Jewish blood. I do see how the deaf people's stituation are very similar to the Jewish people's situation.

I am tired of seeing the hearing people playing God as they would always screwed up in a major way because they aren't Gods. Take the eugenics in the past for an example. They seem to think that they will save on money by sterilizing certain people like Native Americans, African Americans, and anybody they look down on. Do they realized that it has backfired on them??? Now there are more of baby boomers and not enough of younger people paying for the baby boomers' social security when the baby boomers retire and the social security might not survived beyond year 2042. Those who was sterilized don't have any children to take them in when they are old and need some help will end up in the homes sponsored by the government. That cost more money. Those so-called intellect people are really stupid in my point of view and they are trying to play God.

Remember the book "Bell Curve"? Strange 'Bell' fellows. (race-based eugenics) - this link explains more on this and I agree with the last statement on that page

. Still, like the "scientific" studies on racial differences that have preceded it, The Bell Curve will undoubtedly give encouragement to both the crudest and the most subtle forms of racism.

According to this page, the eugenic movement is keep alive by the Pioneer Fund About Us and there is a magazine http://www.mankindquarterly.org/ on that, too. According to the Pioneer Fund, the Bell Curve authors were funded by Bradley Foundation, I wonder if the Bradley Foundation (The Bradley Foundation) are for eugenics as well.

Rick, you don't really know how the deaf people feel because you aren't one. You gotta be deaf to understand what's really happening to the Deaf people. Don't rely on the doctors or those so-called intellect people because they aren't deaf. Ask the deaf people themselves like Jillio did. From your posts, I got the feeling that you still have the blinders on and your head still in the sand. I challenge you to pull your head out and remove those blinders and start asking the deaf people. Start reading those books on eugenics, especially Horst Beisold's book and you will see how Holocaust is much like the eugenics against the deaf people. Shadow a deaf cashier and listen in other people's remarks about the cashier. (I used to be a cashier in a small town and do have stories.) Jillio and Vallee, I am sorry about your ancestors but I do see that the Jewish people and the deaf people and many other minority people are in the same boat. I am on the side of truth no matter how terrible the truth is. People like Rick need to wake up to this fact.

 

[Buffalo]

While I certainly understand your feelings, vallee, as I also have family members who experienced the Halocaust. Ethnocide and genocide, no matter the numbers involved, the means employed to accomplish it, and the populations involved, is still ethnocide and genocide. My Jewish relatives and friends are much more sensitive to, and outraged by, any form of ethnocide and genocide perpetrated against any population as a result of their experience. They use the horror of the Halocaust not as a way to bury history, but to apply it to the future to insure that nothing like this is ever perpetrated against any population, and as a foudation for speaking out against personal judgements of worth made against any group of people based on ethnic origins, social group, or disability. They easily see the connections in the school of thought that leads to actions related to ethnic superiority, and are not offended by the comparisons. Because they are Jewish, and because of the painful history of the Halocaust, they are very sensitive to violations of civil rights perpetrated against any group. I admire them for being able to both recognize the horror of the Halocaust, and to have the strength to move beyond it by using that painful history to motivate them to work for the common good of all oppressed groups.

The Halocaust is only one of the most publicized efforts at genocide. The events in Africa against the Tsutis is a more recent one and just as horrific. A.G. Bell's philosophy of soft eugenics is another one, not quite as recent, but just as important.

That is why I like Jewish people and their way of thinking. I feel I am on the same page as them.

 

[deafskeptic]

You are saying that because you are not being realistic. I dare you to find a deaf cashier (newly hired) and hang around at that store to listen in the comments made by hearing customers. I'd bet you would hear at least one negative comment. It is the prevailing attitude toward the deaf people that is still with us. That can easily be translated into eugenics later on.

Open your eyes. The British Parliament is talking about Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and the clause 14 - http://www.grumpyoldeafies.com/2007/11/parliament_deaf_embryo_select.html . Parents should decided on the fetus but for the deaf parents...the government is looking over their shoulders to make sure that they don't choose a deaf embroyo. This is eugenics. Face it. Once it became legal, the other countries are going to go for it.

Did you miss the one where Shel90 was telling us about a lady who think that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf babies to have CI? I can't find that post but here is Jillio's post (Jillo, I hope you will forgive me for bring this back) which speak for me - http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...5-deaf-view-ci-kid-its-bummer.html#post844967. I agree that it is the hearings' attitude toward us deaf people that causes us alot of problems and heartaches. I see it the same as the Holocaust. I came across an old German book full of short stories for the kids that is translated into English. In it, a Jewish person was viewed in a very negative light. That is when I realized that the Holocaust was started because of the prevailing attitude toward the Jewish people. Holocaust is not only about the Jewish people but it is also about Gypsy people and people with any disability (Yes, deaf people, too) and any people who opposed the government. (More on this in Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims - 5 Million!) They do kill some of the deaf Germans and sterilized other deaf Germans. (Harry Freidlander & Horst Biesold's "Crying Hands: Eugenics and the Deaf People in the Nazi Germany" - you can get it from Amazon.com - I have been to Horst Biesold's lecture back in early 80's). An important point I want to point out came from the review of Harry Freidlander's "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution", the Nazi started with the handicapped people first then later expanded to disabled Jewish people and disabled Gypsy people. Looks like the British Parliament is about to repeat that terrible history.

This link Eugenics Apologies already told us of the eugenics movement in the past. Rick, What makes you think that it won't happen again??? Once the British pass their law, what makes you think that the USA won't copy them? Pull your head out of the sand and face the hard truth.

The hearing people have chutzpah in interfering with our education, our jobs, and our reproduction rights and then complaining about some of the deaf people being on the social security disability, not realizing that the hearing people are the ones putting those deaf people in that position. Some hearing people seem to think that CI will solve all the problems. No, the CI won't change the deaf person's situation. They will still look down on the deaf person with CI. I see that analogy with Jewish people who converted to Christianity and still end up in the concentration camps just because they have Jewish blood. I do see how the deaf people's stituation are very similar to the Jewish people's situation.

I am tired of seeing the hearing people playing God as they would always screwed up in a major way because they aren't Gods. Take the eugenics in the past for an example. They seem to think that they will save on money by sterilizing certain people like Native Americans, African Americans, and anybody they look down on. Do they realized that it has backfired on them??? Now there are more of baby boomers and not enough of younger people paying for the baby boomers' social security when the baby boomers retire and the social security might not survived beyond year 2042. Those who was sterilized don't have any children to take them in when they are old and need some help will end up in the homes sponsored by the government. That cost more money. Those so-called intellect people are really stupid in my point of view and they are trying to play God.

Remember the book "Bell Curve"? Strange 'Bell' fellows. (race-based eugenics) - this link explains more on this and I agree with the last statement on that page According to this page, the eugenic movement is keep alive by the Pioneer Fund About Us and there is a magazine http://www.mankindquarterly.org/ on that, too. According to the Pioneer Fund, the Bell Curve authors were funded by Bradley Foundation, I wonder if the Bradley Foundation (The Bradley Foundation) are for eugenics as well.

Rick, you don't really know how the deaf people feel because you aren't one. You gotta be deaf to understand what's really happening to the Deaf people. Don't rely on the doctors or those so-called intellect people because they aren't deaf. Ask the deaf people themselves like Jillio did. From your posts, I got the feeling that you still have the blinders on and your head still in the sand. I challenge you to pull your head out and remove those blinders and start asking the deaf people. Start reading those books on eugenics, especially Horst Beisold's book and you will see how Holocaust is much like the eugenics against the deaf people. Shadow a deaf cashier and listen in other people's remarks about the cashier. (I used to be a cashier in a small town and do have stories.) Jillio and Vallee, I am sorry about your ancestors but I do see that the Jewish people and the deaf people and many other minority people are in the same boat. I am on the side of truth no matter how terrible the truth is. People like Rick need to wake up to this fact.

Well said, Buffalo.

 

[Buffalo]

Well said, Buffalo.

 

[rick48]

You are saying that because you are not being realistic. I dare you to find a deaf cashier (newly hired) and hang around at that store to listen in the comments made by hearing customers. I'd bet you would hear at least one negative comment. It is the prevailing attitude toward the deaf people that is still with us. That can easily be translated into eugenics later on.

Rick, you don't really know how the deaf people feel because you aren't one. You gotta be deaf to understand what's really happening to the Deaf people. Don't rely on the doctors or those so-called intellect people because they aren't deaf. Ask the deaf people themselves like Jillio did. From your posts, I got the feeling that you still have the blinders on and your head still in the sand. I challenge you to pull your head out and remove those blinders and start asking the deaf people. Start reading those books on eugenics, especially Horst Beisold's book and you will see how Holocaust is much like the eugenics against the deaf people. Shadow a deaf cashier and listen in other people's remarks about the cashier. (I used to be a cashier in a small town and do have stories.) Jillio and Vallee, I am sorry about your ancestors but I do see that the Jewish people and the deaf people and many other minority people are in the same boat. I am on the side of truth no matter how terrible the truth is. People like Rick need to wake up to this fact.

Buffalo,


I have talked to many, many deaf people throughout the years and as you may have forgotten I am also the parent of a deaf person so I do not need to "shadow a deaf cashier" to observe what deaf people experience.


While I am sorry that you have all this pent up anger inside of you that you cannot engage in a discussion calmly and like a rational person, I have neither the time nor the interest to serve as the subject of your nonsensical rantings and ravings. Your anger as directed towards me is misplaced, some of the most inspirational and best people I have had the pleasure to meet are deaf and my own child is living and loving proof of that. I am a parent of a deaf child who chose to give my child the benefits and opportunities of a cochlear implant and you know what: even after the implant she is still deaf. She is also the same wonderful person she was prior to her implant, she just hears a hell of a lot better.

If you want to discuss cochlear implants fine but cochlear implants have nothing to do with the Halocaust and eugenics, unless you have proof of someone who had a cochlear implant and is no longer deaf.

I am sorry that you chose not to engage in a discussion but instead chose to attack me personally but nonetheless I wish you well and hope you get the help and assistance that you so clearly need.
Rick

 

[shel90]

You are saying that because you are not being realistic. I dare you to find a deaf cashier (newly hired) and hang around at that store to listen in the comments made by hearing customers. I'd bet you would hear at least one negative comment. It is the prevailing attitude toward the deaf people that is still with us. That can easily be translated into eugenics later on.

Open your eyes. The British Parliament is talking about Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and the clause 14 - http://www.grumpyoldeafies.com/2007/11/parliament_deaf_embryo_select.html . Parents should decided on the fetus but for the deaf parents...the government is looking over their shoulders to make sure that they don't choose a deaf embroyo. This is eugenics. Face it. Once it became legal, the other countries are going to go for it.

Did you miss the one where Shel90 was telling us about a lady who think that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf babies to have CI? I can't find that post but here is Jillio's post (Jillo, I hope you will forgive me for bring this back) which speak for me - http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...5-deaf-view-ci-kid-its-bummer.html#post844967. I agree that it is the hearings' attitude toward us deaf people that causes us alot of problems and heartaches. I see it the same as the Holocaust. I came across an old German book full of short stories for the kids that is translated into English. In it, a Jewish person was viewed in a very negative light. That is when I realized that the Holocaust was started because of the prevailing attitude toward the Jewish people. Holocaust is not only about the Jewish people but it is also about Gypsy people and people with any disability (Yes, deaf people, too) and any people who opposed the government. (More on this in Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims - 5 Million!) They do kill some of the deaf Germans and sterilized other deaf Germans. (Harry Freidlander & Horst Biesold's "Crying Hands: Eugenics and the Deaf People in the Nazi Germany" - you can get it from Amazon.com - I have been to Horst Biesold's lecture back in early 80's). An important point I want to point out came from the review of Harry Freidlander's "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution", the Nazi started with the handicapped people first then later expanded to disabled Jewish people and disabled Gypsy people. Looks like the British Parliament is about to repeat that terrible history.

This link Eugenics Apologies already told us of the eugenics movement in the past. Rick, What makes you think that it won't happen again??? Once the British pass their law, what makes you think that the USA won't copy them? Pull your head out of the sand and face the hard truth.

The hearing people have chutzpah in interfering with our education, our jobs, and our reproduction rights and then complaining about some of the deaf people being on the social security disability, not realizing that the hearing people are the ones putting those deaf people in that position. Some hearing people seem to think that CI will solve all the problems. No, the CI won't change the deaf person's situation. They will still look down on the deaf person with CI. I see that analogy with Jewish people who converted to Christianity and still end up in the concentration camps just because they have Jewish blood. I do see how the deaf people's stituation are very similar to the Jewish people's situation.

I am tired of seeing the hearing people playing God as they would always screwed up in a major way because they aren't Gods. Take the eugenics in the past for an example. They seem to think that they will save on money by sterilizing certain people like Native Americans, African Americans, and anybody they look down on. Do they realized that it has backfired on them??? Now there are more of baby boomers and not enough of younger people paying for the baby boomers' social security when the baby boomers retire and the social security might not survived beyond year 2042. Those who was sterilized don't have any children to take them in when they are old and need some help will end up in the homes sponsored by the government. That cost more money. Those so-called intellect people are really stupid in my point of view and they are trying to play God.

Remember the book "Bell Curve"? Strange 'Bell' fellows. (race-based eugenics) - this link explains more on this and I agree with the last statement on that page According to this page, the eugenic movement is keep alive by the Pioneer Fund About Us and there is a magazine http://www.mankindquarterly.org/ on that, too. According to the Pioneer Fund, the Bell Curve authors were funded by Bradley Foundation, I wonder if the Bradley Foundation (The Bradley Foundation) are for eugenics as well.

Rick, you don't really know how the deaf people feel because you aren't one. You gotta be deaf to understand what's really happening to the Deaf people. Don't rely on the doctors or those so-called intellect people because they aren't deaf. Ask the deaf people themselves like Jillio did. From your posts, I got the feeling that you still have the blinders on and your head still in the sand. I challenge you to pull your head out and remove those blinders and start asking the deaf people. Start reading those books on eugenics, especially Horst Beisold's book and you will see how Holocaust is much like the eugenics against the deaf people. Shadow a deaf cashier and listen in other people's remarks about the cashier. (I used to be a cashier in a small town and do have stories.) Jillio and Vallee, I am sorry about your ancestors but I do see that the Jewish people and the deaf people and many other minority people are in the same boat. I am on the side of truth no matter how terrible the truth is. People like Rick need to wake up to this fact.

Buffalo.

All my life, I felt like a burden to my teachers and peers cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. I remember all the rolled eyes, the sighs and all the "never minds" or "I will tell u later." It gave me the feeling that they were hoping I would just quietly disappear and not bother them. Eventually, I did become so withdrawn and extremely isolated even though I was surrounded by people.

I know the Holocaust was terrible and I cant compare my experiences to what the Jewish people endured but I can understand what Beinvue is trying to say. Maybe one needs to experience the feelings of being unwanted or a burden to society to really understand what she is trying to say.

 

[Buffalo]

Buffalo,


I have talked to many, many deaf people throughout the years and as you may have forgotten I am also the parent of a deaf person so I do not need to "shadow a deaf cashier" to observe what deaf people experience.


While I am sorry that you have all this pent up anger inside of you that you cannot engage in a discussion calmly and like a rational person, I have neither the time nor the interest to serve as the subject of your nonsensical rantings and ravings. Your anger as directed towards me is misplaced, some of the most inspirational and best people I have had the pleasure to meet are deaf and my own child is living and loving proof of that. I am a parent of a deaf child who chose to give my child the benefits and opportunities of a cochlear implant and you know what: even after the implant she is still deaf. She is also the same wonderful person she was prior to her implant, she just hears a hell of a lot better.

If you want to discuss cochlear implants fine but cochlear implants have nothing to do with the Halocaust and eugenics, unless you have proof of someone who had a cochlear implant and is no longer deaf.

I am sorry that you chose not to engage in a discussion but instead chose to attack me personally but nonetheless I wish you well and hope you get the help and assistance that you so clearly need.
Rick

I am calm and pointing things out to you and people like you. Jillo is right - you tend to avoid answer someone else's questions/comments. Don't bother the deaf people with your questions unless you have remove those blinders.

 

[Buffalo]

Buffalo.

All my life, I felt like a burden to my teachers and peers cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. I remember all the rolled eyes, the sighs and all the "never minds" or "I will tell u later." It gave me the feeling that they were hoping I would just quietly disappear and not bother them. Eventually, I did become so withdrawn and extremely isolated even though I was surrounded by people.

I know the Holocaust was terrible and I cant compare my experiences to what the Jewish people endured but I can understand what Beinvue is trying to say. Maybe one needs to experience the feelings of being unwanted or a burden to society to really understand what she is trying to say.

Bingo! That is why Rick and others like him will not understand what we are saying unless they themselves went thru similar thing. They will not listen to us warning of things like another Holocaust just because they don't really understand it.

 

[rick48]

Buffalo.

All my life, I felt like a burden to my teachers and peers cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. I remember all the rolled eyes, the sighs and all the "never minds" or "I will tell u later." It gave me the feeling that they were hoping I would just quietly disappear and not bother them. Eventually, I did become so withdrawn and extremely isolated even though I was surrounded by people.

I know the Holocaust was terrible and I cant compare my experiences to what the Jewish people endured but I can understand what Beinvue is trying to say. Maybe one needs to experience the feelings of being unwanted or a burden to society to really understand what she is trying to say.

Shel,

However, as that the quote from Bienvenu from the Deaf Mosaic show is from the early 90s and as I have read other quotes from her made at the same time, she is comparing the act of children receiving cochlear implants as a result of their parents' decision with the Nazis' mass murder of millions of people and not how the hearing society treats deaf people who cannot communicate orally.

So, as I stated earlier the choice of that comparision was deliberately chosen and used to create as negative an image of children with cochlear implants and their parents as possible and is not one designed to encourage discussion and mutual understanding but to further polarize and divide people.

My hope is that she, unlike many on this forum, has grown past that position and realizes that being Deaf and having a cochlear implant are not mutually exclusive and that even after receiving a cochlear implant a person is and always will be deaf.

I see your point and it is a valid one, but it is separate and distinct from the comparision of cochlear implants to the Halocaust.
Rick

 

[rick48]

I am calm and pointing things out to you and people like you. Jillo is right - you tend to avoid answer someone else's questions/comments. Don't bother the deaf people with your questions unless you have remove those blinders.

Sorry but using the jillio tactics of deflection and turnaround arguments sprinkled with personal attacks is not going to cut it. I asked you a simple question which you still have not answered.

I asked, you chose not to answer but to rant, rave and attack, not going to waste further time on you.

Go ahead, have the last word, you need it more than I do.

Have a nice day.
Rick

 

[Buffalo]

Sorry but using the jillio tactics of deflection and turnaround arguments sprinkled with personal attacks is not going to cut it. I asked you a simple question which you still have not answered.

I asked, you chose not to answer but to rant, rave and attack, not going to waste further time on you.

Go ahead, have the last word, you need it more than I do.

Have a nice day.
Rick

There you go. I answered your question about who want to get rid of the deaf people. The answer is those intellect people at organizations that support eugenics like Pioneer Fund and that Mankind magazine. It is not just in USA. It is happening in China and maybe in UK if they pass that law with that clause 14 in it. It can influence another country to adopt that kind of law/thinking. Then there is an interesting point about how Holocaust got started with handicapped people which later expanded to disabled Gypsy/Jewish people and again expanded to all Jewish people, gay people, Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses, Polish people, and so on. Still you think I haven't answer your question. You really need to adjust your attitude. Just open your eyes and see the cold hard truth. Believe me, I am calm.

 

[shel90]

Shel,

However, as that the quote from Bienvenu from the Deaf Mosaic show is from the early 90s and as I have read other quotes from her made at the same time, she is comparing the act of children receiving cochlear implants as a result of their parents' decision with the Nazis' mass murder of millions of people and not how the hearing society treats deaf people who cannot communicate orally.

So, as I stated earlier the choice of that comparision was deliberately chosen and used to create as negative an image of children with cochlear implants and their parents as possible and is not one designed to encourage discussion and mutual understanding but to further polarize and divide people.

My hope is that she, unlike many on this forum, has grown past that position and realizes that being Deaf and having a cochlear implant are not mutually exclusive and that even after receiving a cochlear implant a person is and always will be deaf.

I see your point and it is a valid one, but it is separate and distinct from the comparision of cochlear implants to the Halocaust.
Rick

Well, there are more and more students with CIs attending Gallaudet so maybe she has changed her views on the CI. Who knows? If I see her again, I can ask her. I am not against CIs but against the attitude that seems to go hand in hand with it by the general public. Like Buffalo mentioned about my encounter with that woman who said all deaf people should get a CI. It is that view that makes me lose my appetite. Even thinking about it, my stomach just tightens up. I am not blaming the CIs themselves but it just seems like it is being used by the medical field, oralists and audiologists to eliminate Deaf culture and ASL. That is how I interpreted Beinveu's comparision to the Holocaust as. Maybe she is blaming the CIs directly when she should be blaming the attidudes instead. Who knows? I can understand her anger. We, deaf people, have been so oppressed by hearing people for so long and we are all sick of it.

 

[Buffalo]

Well, there are more and more students with CIs attending Gallaudet so maybe she has changed her views on the CI. Who knows? If I see her again, I can ask her. I am not against CIs but against the attitude that seems to go hand in hand with it by the general public. Like Buffalo mentioned about my encounter with that woman who said all deaf people should get a CI. It is that view that makes me lose my appetite. Even thinking about it, my stomach just tightens up. I am not blaming the CIs themselves but it just seems like it is being used by the medical field, oralists and audiologists to eliminate Deaf culture and ASL. That is how I interpreted Beinveu's comparision to the Holocaust as. Maybe she is blaming the CIs directly when she should be blaming the attidudes instead. Who knows? I can understand her anger. We, deaf people, have been so oppressed by hearing people for so long and we are all sick of it.

Who are you talking about?? If it is Beinvenu, then you are lucky to meet her.

Yes, Oralism tends to go hand in hand with CI. Even a CI website I saw, says that the deaf child receiving CI shouldn't learn sign language. They failed to see what happened if the CI broke down later on or if the CI never did provide the comprehesion of words as it should for a particular child. Like Shel90 was saying that the CI was stolen from a house and that poor child went without one for awhile until he/she could get a new one. That is what happened when sign language is forbidden.

Maybe Beinvenu meant the attitude BEHIND the CI movement. There has to be the attitude first to start up the CI movement.

Forgot to say for your saying that my post is a good one. My bad, so thank you again.

 

[shel90]

Who are you talking about?? If it is Beinvenu, then you are lucky to meet her.

Yes, Oralism tends to go hand in hand with CI. Even a CI website I saw, says that the deaf child receiving CI shouldn't learn sign language. They failed to see what happened if the CI broke down later on or if the CI never did provide the comprehesion of words as it should for a particular child. Like Shel90 was saying that the CI was stolen from a house and that poor child went without one for awhile until he/she could get a new one. That is what happened when sign language is forbidden.

Maybe Beinvenu meant the attitude BEHIND the CI movement. There has to be the attitude first to start up the CI movement.

Yep, I was talking about Beinvenu. She was my ASL V teacher at Gallaudet. She was more tough on me with my ASL skills than my hearing classmates cuz I am deaf. I didnt like her at first but then I realized she had higher expections of me than she did with the hearing students. LOL!

Yea, I think Beinvenu was referring to the attitude behind the CI movement.

To that CI website that forbided sign language :rl::rl::rl::rl:

 

[deafskeptic]

Well, there are more and more students with CIs attending Gallaudet so maybe she has changed her views on the CI. Who knows? If I see her again, I can ask her. I am not against CIs but against the attitude that seems to go hand in hand with it by the general public. Like Buffalo mentioned about my encounter with that woman who said all deaf people should get a CI. It is that view that makes me lose my appetite. Even thinking about it, my stomach just tightens up. I am not blaming the CIs themselves but it just seems like it is being used by the medical field, oralists and audiologists to eliminate Deaf culture and ASL. That is how I interpreted Beinveu's comparision to the Holocaust as. Maybe she is blaming the CIs directly when she should be blaming the attidudes instead. Who knows? I can understand her anger. We, deaf people, have been so oppressed by hearing people for so long and we are all sick of it.

That is how I also interpreted Beinveu's post.

 

[deafdyke]

she, unlike many on this forum, has grown past that position and realizes that being Deaf and having a cochlear implant are not mutually exclusive and that even after receiving a cochlear implant a person is and always will be deaf.

rick FYI MOST folks on this forum are VERY accepting of CI and being Deaf.
I gotta admit, yes....it is the attitude, but the thing is, even without CI oralism was popular and big.

 

[rick48]

Like Buffalo mentioned about my encounter with that woman who said all deaf people should get a CI. It is that view that makes me lose my appetite.

Shel,

So maybe now, although you are not a parent of a child with a ci, you can appreciate how we feel when we are compared to Hitler, when, as has happened on this forum, we are called child abusers and our children must have been abducted by aliens who implanted them.

Perhaps instead of always telling us to walk a mile in their shoes one might realize that we have walked in our childrens' shoes everyday of their lives and perhaps it is they who should walk a mile in ours before putting us down.

Food for thought.

Rick

BTW for the record, if you do not know already, I do not agree that every child should have the ci but that it should be an option for every child. That is what separates me from people like that woman you encountered and Bienvenu who you had as a teacher. I do not adopt a "one size fits all" philosophy towards raising any child even a deaf one.

 

[shel90]

Shel,

So maybe now, although you are not a parent of a child with a ci, you can appreciate how we feel when we are compared to Hitler, when, as has happened on this forum, we are called child abusers and our children must have been abducted by aliens who implanted them.

Perhaps instead of always telling us to walk a mile in your shoes you might realize that we have walked in our childrens' shoes everyday of their lives and perhaps you should walk a mile in ours before putting us down.

Food for thought.

Rick

BTW for the record, if you do not know already, I do not agree that every child should have the ci but that it should be an option for every child. That is what separates me from people like that woman you encountered and Bienvenu who you had as a teacher. I do not adopt a "one size fits all" philosophy.

Again, here we go. You are saying that I am putting u and the other parents down. Again, where have I said that? If other people do that, do not hold me responsible for them. That is when things get ugly so can we just not do those kinds of accusations pls.

Again, I have nothing against CIs...it is the view that Deaf culture and ASL is not needed that I am talking about.

In the case of language development, I believe in using real languages instead of systems and ASL is fully accessible to deaf children. As I have said, I believe in using both languages for all deaf/hoh children. It doesnt matter if they have a CI or not. As I have stated millions of times, the decision to get the CI for the child is the family's business not my business. I wont go around calling them child abusers, neglectful and so on. I just worry about my own two kids and if I had a deaf kid, I will focus on my own beliefs but I wont force them on other families (relating to the CI). However, because I am a teacher, I am really tired of seeing numerous of deaf children (with CI or not) being referred to our school with language delays from the oral programs. That is why I dont believe using whatever works for the child in the educational setting. I dont liek the idea of playing Russian roulette with deaf children's language development. That is what I strongly believe in. That and exposing them to the Deaf community.

 

[jillio]

You are saying that because you are not being realistic. I dare you to find a deaf cashier (newly hired) and hang around at that store to listen in the comments made by hearing customers. I'd bet you would hear at least one negative comment. It is the prevailing attitude toward the deaf people that is still with us. That can easily be translated into eugenics later on.

Open your eyes. The British Parliament is talking about Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and the clause 14 - http://www.grumpyoldeafies.com/2007/11/parliament_deaf_embryo_select.html . Parents should decided on the fetus but for the deaf parents...the government is looking over their shoulders to make sure that they don't choose a deaf embroyo. This is eugenics. Face it. Once it became legal, the other countries are going to go for it.

Did you miss the one where Shel90 was telling us about a lady who think that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf babies to have CI? I can't find that post but here is Jillio's post (Jillo, I hope you will forgive me for bring this back) which speak for me - http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...5-deaf-view-ci-kid-its-bummer.html#post844967. I agree that it is the hearings' attitude toward us deaf people that causes us alot of problems and heartaches. I see it the same as the Holocaust. I came across an old German book full of short stories for the kids that is translated into English. In it, a Jewish person was viewed in a very negative light. That is when I realized that the Holocaust was started because of the prevailing attitude toward the Jewish people. Holocaust is not only about the Jewish people but it is also about Gypsy people and people with any disability (Yes, deaf people, too) and any people who opposed the government. (More on this in Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims - 5 Million!) They do kill some of the deaf Germans and sterilized other deaf Germans. (Harry Freidlander & Horst Biesold's "Crying Hands: Eugenics and the Deaf People in the Nazi Germany" - you can get it from Amazon.com - I have been to Horst Biesold's lecture back in early 80's). An important point I want to point out came from the review of Harry Freidlander's "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution", the Nazi started with the handicapped people first then later expanded to disabled Jewish people and disabled Gypsy people. Looks like the British Parliament is about to repeat that terrible history.

This link Eugenics Apologies already told us of the eugenics movement in the past. Rick, What makes you think that it won't happen again??? Once the British pass their law, what makes you think that the USA won't copy them? Pull your head out of the sand and face the hard truth.

The hearing people have chutzpah in interfering with our education, our jobs, and our reproduction rights and then complaining about some of the deaf people being on the social security disability, not realizing that the hearing people are the ones putting those deaf people in that position. Some hearing people seem to think that CI will solve all the problems. No, the CI won't change the deaf person's situation. They will still look down on the deaf person with CI. I see that analogy with Jewish people who converted to Christianity and still end up in the concentration camps just because they have Jewish blood. I do see how the deaf people's stituation are very similar to the Jewish people's situation.

I am tired of seeing the hearing people playing God as they would always screwed up in a major way because they aren't Gods. Take the eugenics in the past for an example. They seem to think that they will save on money by sterilizing certain people like Native Americans, African Americans, and anybody they look down on. Do they realized that it has backfired on them??? Now there are more of baby boomers and not enough of younger people paying for the baby boomers' social security when the baby boomers retire and the social security might not survived beyond year 2042. Those who was sterilized don't have any children to take them in when they are old and need some help will end up in the homes sponsored by the government. That cost more money. Those so-called intellect people are really stupid in my point of view and they are trying to play God.

Remember the book "Bell Curve"? Strange 'Bell' fellows. (race-based eugenics) - this link explains more on this and I agree with the last statement on that page According to this page, the eugenic movement is keep alive by the Pioneer Fund About Us and there is a magazine http://www.mankindquarterly.org/ on that, too. According to the Pioneer Fund, the Bell Curve authors were funded by Bradley Foundation, I wonder if the Bradley Foundation (The Bradley Foundation) are for eugenics as well.

Rick, you don't really know how the deaf people feel because you aren't one. You gotta be deaf to understand what's really happening to the Deaf people. Don't rely on the doctors or those so-called intellect people because they aren't deaf. Ask the deaf people themselves like Jillio did. From your posts, I got the feeling that you still have the blinders on and your head still in the sand. I challenge you to pull your head out and remove those blinders and start asking the deaf people. Start reading those books on eugenics, especially Horst Beisold's book and you will see how Holocaust is much like the eugenics against the deaf people. Shadow a deaf cashier and listen in other people's remarks about the cashier. (I used to be a cashier in a small town and do have stories.) Jillio and Vallee, I am sorry about your ancestors but I do see that the Jewish people and the deaf people and many other minority people are in the same boat. I am on the side of truth no matter how terrible the truth is. People like Rick need to wake up to this fact.