Low Frequency Residual Hearing Revisited. Great benefits.

[bebito831]

I can hear pretty good with my aids on, but I hear almost nothing without them. I have always wondered about CI, and if it would help me hear even better than my aids do.

 

[faire_jour]

I can hear pretty good with my aids on, but I hear almost nothing without them. I have always wondered about CI, and if it would help me hear even better than my aids do.

It is very possible. Only an audiologist can determine that for you, but if you have questions, ask away.

 

[Lissa]

I thought residual hearing was being able to hear without aids

 

[bebito831]

I think I have residual hearing, but it is very muffled.


I can hear without my aids but only things like semi trucks, super loud music, and if you scream directly into my ear.

 

[deafdude1]

The fundamental frequency of people's voices are low frequency, men's voice at just 125Hz!

Not in the case of female voices.

By the way, most speech sounds occur in the mid and high frequencies while vowels are low frequency sounds.

With that being the case, high and middle frequencies are more important to speech understanding than low frequencies.

Your speech understanding remained the same despite not hearing above 2000Hz so high frequencies apparantly don't do much. Even my dad has no problem with speech and he has a moderate high frequency HL above 2000Hz.

Many people could be getting more gain from their HAs. Normal hearing is 0db to 25db, why settle for less?

More gain doesn't always equal greater clarity.

My audiologist will program some features that will increase the clarity. Ill see how it is after he's done programming it.

I don't get it, you are so obsessed with getting the maximum amount of hearing but you flatly refuse to even consider a CI. If you want the best possible hearing it is clearly a better choice. I am just confused.

My audiologist does not recommend a CI and believes ill be hearing environmental sounds much better than CI users and hear speech almost as good as a CI. He's going to reprogram my HAs for the best possible hearing.

That would make sense IF he could hear well with it, but he has said again and again that all he gets is enviromental sounds. I just guess because I'm hearing I don't see NR in high frequencies as usable residual hearing.

Hear again no longer hears high frequencies with her CIs, yet her speech reception/understanding remains the same. My dad has a moderate high frequency hearing loss and still has no problem understanding speech. I am sending those HAs back for reprogramming. Right now I get 72% correct on an easy online sentence speech test. Hear again gets about 90% so if I can get to 90%, id hear as well as she does with her CI.

Yes, for someone OBSESSED with getting to 0 db hearing, I would think that a CI could better reach that goal.

Ive been told I have a better chance to get close to 0db with HAs than with CI. My audiologist is reprogramming my HAs so I have normal or near normal hearing in low and mid frequencies.

I don't know anyone who hears at 0 dB. The best I've heard anyone with a CI hear is 15 dB which is what I hear in the low frequencies.

Actually, you hear 10db at 250Hz. Cyborg Queen also has 10db low frequency hearing with her bilateral CIs. But yea it's unusual to hear better than 30db with a CI. I would not be happy hearing only 30db when I can hear much better thresholds with HAs

That's very true...i don't think that he will ever be happy with anything unless he magically gets hearing and even then i think he wouldn't be happy or realistic expectations of anything

Id go for CIs if the odds were at least 90% that id hear better and louder. My audiologist says I have way too much residual hearing and does not recommend any CI using today's technology. I understand people with 110-120db+ HL getting CI(such as Hear Again, she has 120db loss at 750Hz, NR above that.) but I don't understand those with equal or more residual hearing than me. My audiologist claims he could program a HA to give those people better, louder, more aided hearing than what a CI can give. He said if my hearing was a few db better than what it's now, id hear perfect/normal with HAs.

how are you eligible for a ci if you can hear without it?

It used to be that you must have no residual hearing for a CI but now CI candidacy is getting incredibly lax. Those same people with the right HAs, with the right audiologist(like mine who says hes the expert) who knows how to program them would be hearing just fine aided.

I can hear pretty good with my aids on, but I hear almost nothing without them. I have always wondered about CI, and if it would help me hear even better than my aids do.

What's your unaided/aided audiogram? If it's equal or better than mine, id stick with HAs till your hearing gets worse and CI technology gets better.

 

[faire_jour]

Miss Kat's hearing was way better than yours and her CI is a miracle change. I think if you woke up tomorrow with a CI you would be dumbfounded by the things you didn't know you didn't hear.

Oh, and Hear Again is hearing in the high frequencies jusy at 60 db. That is unusual, but what are your results at 4000 hz? Miss Kat's is 15 db!

 

[Hear Again]

Your speech understanding remained the same despite not hearing above 2000Hz so high frequencies apparantly don't do much. Even my dad has no problem with speech and he has a moderate high frequency HL above 2000Hz.

Not true. High frequencies play a significant role in speech understanding. How can someone understand speech without consonants?

 

[Hear Again]

Oh, and Hear Again is hearing in the high frequencies jusy at 60 db. That is unusual, but what are your results at 4000 hz?

Exactly. The only reason I'm hearing 4000 Hz at 60 dB is because of the electrodes that were turned off.

However, I'm still hearing enough low and middle frequencies to understand speech well.

Also, when you think about it, hearing 4000 Hz at 60 dB is still hearing. It may not be the same as hearing at 20 or 30 dB, but it is hearing nevertheless.

 

[Hear Again]

Those same people with the right HAs, with the right audiologist(like mine who says hes the expert) who knows how to program them would be hearing just fine aided.

No offense to your audi, but if I had an audi who told me he or she was "the expert," they'd be fired right on the spot. Audis aren't the experts when it comes to hearing loss -- their clients are. I'm the one who knows how well I hear or don't hear -- not them.

 

[faire_jour]

Those same people with the right HAs, with the right audiologist(like mine who says hes the expert) who knows how to program them would be hearing just fine aided.

No offense to your audi, but if I had an audi who told me he or she was "the expert," they'd be fired right on the spot. Audis aren't the experts when it comes to hearing loss -- their clients are. I'm the one who knows how well I hear or don't hear -- not them.

I agree, the "proof is in the pudding", so to speak. Miss Kat had hearing aids for 4 years. She was aided as high as 15 db. She couldn't understand speech or learn to talk. She gets a CI and the NEXT DAY she is understanding speech better than she ever had before!

 

[Hear Again]

Actually, you hear 10db at 250Hz. Cyborg Queen also has 10db low frequency hearing with her bilateral CIs. But yea it's unusual to hear better than 30db with a CI. I would not be happy hearing only 30db when I can hear much better thresholds with HAs

You're right. I do hear 250 Hz at 10 dB. I didn't know that though until I saw my audiogram today. Prior to those audiograms, I was hearing 250 Hz at 15 dB which is why I said that.

 

[Daredevel7]

Actually, you hear 10db at 250Hz. Cyborg Queen also has 10db low frequency hearing with her bilateral CIs. But yea it's unusual to hear better than 30db with a CI. I would not be happy hearing only 30db when I can hear much better thresholds with HAs.

I am not sure where you are getting this information from? I don't know the statistics of a typical CI user but I can tell you that I hear better than 25 dB across ALL frequencies. I took out my latest audiogram with the CI only:

125Hz 20dB
250Hz 20dB
500Hz 10dB
1000Hz 20dB
2000Hz 25 dB
4000Hz 20 dB

It used to be that you must have no residual hearing for a CI but now CI candidacy is getting incredibly lax. Those same people with the right HAs, with the right audiologist(like mine who says hes the expert) who knows how to program them would be hearing just fine aided.

Just trying to get this straight. You want the CI to be for those who have no residual hearing at all? And do you mean residual hearing unaided or aided? I can't hear a THING unaided and can hear lots of environmental sounds aided. (I have 90-100db loss in one ear and 90-110dB loss in another, pre-CI)

 

[LadySekhmet]

My audiologist does not recommend a CI and believes ill be hearing environmental sounds much better than CI users and hear speech almost as good as a CI. He's going to reprogram my HAs for the best possible hearing.

Okay, I'm looking forward to see if you can hear birds, crickets, leaves rustling, certain dog's bark, cats mewing...those are environmental sounds. So, if you can hear them, you won't hear "better" than I can, you will be hearing the same.

Ive been told I have a better chance to get close to 0db with HAs than with CI. My audiologist is reprogramming my HAs so I have normal or near normal hearing in low and mid frequencies.

Are you serious? I have NEVER heard of ANYONE with hearing aids, even moderate loss, that can reach to 0db line across the board. It's almost impossible to reach that level. Maybe in the very lows, but I doubt it. There's a difference between being able to hear at a certain db and clarity. BIG difference.

Id go for CIs if the odds were at least 90% that id hear better and louder. My audiologist says I have way too much residual hearing and does not recommend any CI using today's technology. I understand people with 110-120db+ HL getting CI(such as Hear Again, she has 120db loss at 750Hz, NR above that.) but I don't understand those with equal or more residual hearing than me. My audiologist claims he could program a HA to give those people better, louder, more aided hearing than what a CI can give. He said if my hearing was a few db better than what it's now, id hear perfect/normal with HAs.

Even so, no hearing aid technology will give me the clarity that I need. I'm not saying that HA will not help me at all...it will certain help with the environmental sounds, but not the clarity. I have NR in the high frequencies. Aided will only bring it up to about 60 to 80 db line. That's so poor considering now I have the ability to reach the 10db (again, I had it lowered so it doesn't bother me as much). Having the clarity and hearing music a lot better made my decision easy.

It used to be that you must have no residual hearing for a CI but now CI candidacy is getting incredibly lax. Those same people with the right HAs, with the right audiologist(like mine who says hes the expert) who knows how to program them would be hearing just fine aided.

It's not "incredibly lax". There's a reason why. Take someone who have ABSOLUTELY no residual hearing, who doesn't wear hearing aids. And someone who has residual hearing, but doing poorly in sentence discrimination and good environmental sounds. Who do you think will have more success? The one who has residual hearing...because that person is used to what things sounds like. It may sound slightly different because they're gaining the extra sounds they never had in the first place. The first person who never had HA or residual hearing - it will be very overwhelming for them because they never heard it before. So, NO, I do not think it has become incredibly lax.

 

[Hear Again]

Are you serious? I have NEVER heard of ANYONE with hearing aids, even moderate loss, that can reach to 0db line across the board. It's almost impossible to reach that level.

When I had moderately-severe hearing loss, my aided scores were in the 10-20 dB range. I agree with you and don't think that's possible for someone who wears hearing aids.

Since deafdude's audi is "the expert," let's see if he can make that happen. I doubt it.

 

[Hear Again]

Originally Posted by deafdude1
But yea it's unusual to hear better than 30db with a CI.

No, it's not. Many people with CIs hear anywhere from 10-30 dB across all frequencies. Where are you getting this information?

 

[deafdude1]

Many people could be getting more gain from their HAs. Normal hearing is 0db to 25db, why settle for less?

More gain doesn't always equal greater clarity.

Of course not, but it still helps by amplification.

I don't get it, you are so obsessed with getting the maximum amount of hearing but you flatly refuse to even consider a CI. If you want the best possible hearing it is clearly a better choice. I am just confused.

My audiologist doesn't recommend CI. He's going to reprogram my HA for maximum gain, transposition and other features. He also says if I keep practicing my speech, itll be near perfect.

I bet that if deafdude decided to get a CI (totally implantable) in the future, he'd want to hear at 0 dB and would ask the audi to program and reprogram his CI in order to do that. CIs don't work that way. I don't know anyone who hears at 0 dB. The best I've heard anyone with a CI hear is 15 dB which is what I hear in the low frequencies.

Ive never seen anyone get a better CI result than LadySekhmet so I know 10db is the best possible. See my thread on average CI results.

That's very true...i don't think that he will ever be happy with anything unless he magically gets hearing and even then i think he wouldn't be happy or realistic expectations of anything

My audiologist is reprogramming my HAs to get me normal low frequency hearing and near normal mid frequency hearing. He will attempt to get transposition working so I "hear" high frequencies. Once he's done, he believes I can achieve a high percent of speech reception. How well did your audiologist program your HAs?

I thought I read somewhere that you no longer have to lose your residual hearing when you get your implants? Maybe I was dreaming that?

You still usually lose most or all of your residual hearing. This is why only those with very little residual hearing should risk it with CI. If CI does not work right or is worse than what you hear with HAs, you can go back to HAs if you get lucky and keep your residual hearing. The other reason is a hybrid CI. There's several more reasons to preserve residual hearing.

I can hear pretty good with my aids on, but I hear almost nothing without them. I have always wondered about CI, and if it would help me hear even better than my aids do.

What's your current audiogram? If it's better than mine, you should be hearing better than me, obviously. My own audiologist doesn't recommend a CI so unless your hearing is much worse than mine, many audies won't recommend a CI for you either.

 

[deafdude1]

Miss Kat's hearing was way better than yours and her CI is a miracle change. I think if you woke up tomorrow with a CI you would be dumbfounded by the things you didn't know you didn't hear.

Oh, and Hear Again is hearing in the high frequencies jusy at 60 db. That is unusual, but what are your results at 4000 hz? Miss Kat's is 15 db!

I posted this reply in another thread, ill ask again why she was doing so poorly with HAs once her hearing got to this point? Even I understand 80% of speech when my dad was talking to me in the car(lots of traffic noise) My parents also said I understood some speech when I was Miss Kat's age despite having worse hearing than her and wearing analog HAs.

I have no idea what I am not hearing in comparsion to CI wearers and especially compared to those with normal hearing. Ive talked to a few CI wearers and they say they hear more speech and sounds are clearer. I ask for their unaided/aided audiogram and find out they either do not have the best HAs or it's not programmed to max gains. My audiologist says once he reprograms my HAs, ill hear so much better, possibly to normal levels for several frequencies.

Hear again had her high frequency electrodes disabled that she hears poorly above 2000Hz, yet her speech has not suffered. My own dad has a moderate HL above 2000Hz and he also hears speech perfectly. Right now my aided hearing is poor above 500Hz, yet im hearing pretty good considering those aided scores. They should be way better when my HAs are reprogrammed.

Not true. High frequencies play a significant role in speech understanding. How can someone understand speech without consonants?

You tell me, your speech is the same without your high frequency electrodes.

No offense to your audi, but if I had an audi who told me he or she was "the expert," they'd be fired right on the spot. Audis aren't the experts when it comes to hearing loss -- their clients are. I'm the one who knows how well I hear or don't hear -- not them.

Well my audie is just going to reprogram my HAs, I asked for max gains and features and he's going to give me that. He believes I will hear much better afterwards and understand almost all speech.

I agree, the "proof is in the pudding", so to speak. Miss Kat had hearing aids for 4 years. She was aided as high as 15 db. She couldn't understand speech or learn to talk. She gets a CI and the NEXT DAY she is understanding speech better than she ever had before!

Didn't you say before she was aided to 40-45db before she got CI? My hearing was worse than hers since birth and I understood alot of speech and learned to speak clearly. I am happy CI works so well for her, but I am very confused why she was doing so badly with HAs despite having much better hearing than me?

I am not sure where you are getting this information from? I don't know the statistics of a typical CI user but I can tell you that I hear better than 25 dB across ALL frequencies. I took out my latest audiogram with the CI only:

125Hz 20dB
250Hz 20dB
500Hz 10dB
1000Hz 20dB
2000Hz 25 dB
4000Hz 20 dB

Very impressive scores! Are those the best possible scores? Im currently learning all the factors that determine CI aided scores and also why it's different for different frequencies. What factors got you to 10db at 500Hz but 20db in the other frequencies?

Just trying to get this straight. You want the CI to be for those who have no residual hearing at all? And do you mean residual hearing unaided or aided? I can't hear a THING unaided and can hear lots of environmental sounds aided. (I have 90-100db loss in one ear and 90-110dB loss in another, pre-CI)

No residual hearing or very little such as yours. Was your 90db loss starting at 250Hz? What was the highest frequency you could hear unaided in each ear? Maybe my 75db to 80db unaided at 250Hz makes a big difference? I have a thread with an article on "Low Frequency Residual Hearing Revisited. Great benefits." as a possible explanation.

Okay, I'm looking forward to see if you can hear birds, crickets, leaves rustling, certain dog's bark, cats mewing...those are environmental sounds. So, if you can hear them, you won't hear "better" than I can, you will be hearing the same.

Well I probably don't hear birds, I used to though. I will never hear as well as you with my HAs, well maybe at 250Hz and below. But then others with CIs don't hear as well as you do for the matter, your results/thresholds is the best ive ever seen!

Are you serious? I have NEVER heard of ANYONE with hearing aids, even moderate loss, that can reach to 0db line across the board. It's almost impossible to reach that level. Maybe in the very lows, but I doubt it. There's a difference between being able to hear at a certain db and clarity. BIG difference.

To be honest, me either. Im still trying to find out why. If a person has 60db loss at any frequency and you give him 60db gain, would he hear 0db aided? If not, why? No one has been able to answer this. As for clarity, I have no idea what others hear, only what I hear and what I will hear when my HAs are reprogrammed. My audiologist is just going to program my HAs to the max, how well I hear because of this is up to my ears and brain.

Even so, no hearing aid technology will give me the clarity that I need. I'm not saying that HA will not help me at all...it will certain help with the environmental sounds, but not the clarity. I have NR in the high frequencies. Aided will only bring it up to about 60 to 80 db line. That's so poor considering now I have the ability to reach the 10db (again, I had it lowered so it doesn't bother me as much). Having the clarity and hearing music a lot better made my decision easy.

If I remember right, your unaided audiogram was 75db, 105db, 110db, 120db, NR above 2000Hz. Your hearing at 500Hz was 15db worse than mine and about the same in the other frequencies. That 15db probably makes a huge difference. That 60db aided is a poor score, indeed. My audiologist hopefully can get me aided to 10db in the lows, 30db in the mids and 40db in the highs(after transposition) ill at least hear environmental sounds great and have decent speech comphrension(it's already 80% in some cases)

It's not "incredibly lax". There's a reason why. Take someone who have ABSOLUTELY no residual hearing, who doesn't wear hearing aids. And someone who has residual hearing, but doing poorly in sentence discrimination and good environmental sounds. Who do you think will have more success? The one who has residual hearing...because that person is used to what things sounds like. It may sound slightly different because they're gaining the extra sounds they never had in the first place. The first person who never had HA or residual hearing - it will be very overwhelming for them because they never heard it before. So, NO, I do not think it has become incredibly lax.

What about a person who lost most or all their residual hearing? They would still know what sounds were like before the loss, yet experience a huge benefit over HAs which have become nearly useless. If a person is getting moderate benefit from HAs, it makes sense to wait as there will be better technology and his hearing may get worse. Then he will see the huge difference when the time comes. You said your own hearing got worse and this made you decide to go CIs, how much worse did it get?

 

[Hear Again]

You tell me, your speech is the same without your high frequency electrodes.

I'm hearing 4K at 60 dB with my left CI. I'm also hearing 4K and 8K at 60 and 70 dB respectively with my right CI, so I'm not missing high frequencies entirely.

 

[Hear Again]

She gets a CI and the NEXT DAY she is understanding speech better than she ever had before!

faire_jour,

Miss Kat was relying on lipreading to aid in her speech understanding.

 

[Hear Again]

He believes I will hear much better afterwards and understand almost all speech.

You have a very optimistic audi.