Languages

[jillio]

A hearing person got angry because I wouldn't talk while I signed. I tried to explain why I can't sign and talk at the same time. I told her that I have to sign it and then say it in English. I couldn't make her understand. I thought she was very unreasonable.

I agree. She is unreasonable. I can't simcom, either. My English and my ASL goes all to hell! A grammar nazi would have a field day with me!

 

[sallylou]

If you can Sim Com, hats off to you! That makes me crazy.

 

[deafskeptic]

A hearing person got angry because I wouldn't talk while I signed. I tried to explain why I can't sign and talk at the same time. I told her that I have to sign it and then say it in English. I couldn't make her understand. I thought she was very unreasonable.

I got that too in my warlock's old guild in World of Warcraft. Some hearing guy was complaining he was having a hard time with his ASL lessons because it was all voice off. I told him you're not supposed to sign and talk at the same time in ASL. I guess he dropped his class.

 

[jillio]

If you can Sim Com, hats off to you! That makes me crazy.

I would really, really like to see an instance of someone simcoming without either language suffering. There are those that claim they can...I am still skeptical until I see it done. Even the rhythm of the two languages are different. I am especially skeptical of those who say they can sign SEE correctly while speaking. They would have to slow their speech to the degree that it would be gibberish. Or drop the essential features of SEE. Either way, both modes are still being adulterated.

 

[Beach girl]

I wonder if it's easier or harder for people who have studied several languages to pick up ASL. I mean, every time you learn a language, you have to learn the rules, like gender agreement, the importance (or lack of importance) for word order, case endings where needed, etc. (If you read the article grendel posted, it goes into that sort of thing in depth.)

A language learner has to be able (or learn to be able) to approach each language as an entity in itself, which might have similarities to other languages, but is still its own system.

ASL uses the visual orientation instead of verbal, so that would be different. Otherwise, it's the same as any other language, looks like, with its own word order indicating importance (like what Jillio said about "tense first") and so on. Maybe people who are used to starting from scratch might already have that habit of knowing that "Ok, things are different here."

In my language classes, the people who had the most difficulty were always the ones who tried to insist on translating to and from English, instead of absorbing the new language for what it was.

 

[jillio]

I wonder if it's easier or harder for people who have studied several languages to pick up ASL. I mean, every time you learn a language, you have to learn the rules, like gender agreement, the importance (or lack of importance) for word order, case endings where needed, etc. (If you read the article grendel posted, it goes into that sort of thing in depth.)

A language learner has to be able (or learn to be able) to approach each language as an entity in itself, which might have similarities to other languages, but is still its own system.

ASL uses the visual orientation instead of verbal, so that would be different. Otherwise, it's the same as any other language, looks like, with its own word order indicating importance (like what Jillio said about "tense first") and so on. Maybe people who are used to starting from scratch might already have that habit of knowing that "Ok, things are different here."

In my language classes, the people who had the most difficulty were always the ones who tried to insist on translating to and from English, instead of absorbing the new language for what it was.

If they are oral/aural languages, it would probably be more difficult, as the tendency to use word as symbol is even greater.

ASL and all of its linguistic features adddress the needs of visual processing. Any aural/oral language and its linguistic features address the needs of aural processing. They have developed that way over time.

 

[Beach girl]

I wonder if it's easier for actors - including casual actors in community theater, that sort of thing - who are trained to express emotion through their bodies and movements and facial expressions.

 

[jillio]

I wonder if it's easier for actors - including casual actors in community theater, that sort of thing - who are trained to express emotion through their bodies and movements and facial expressions.

Grasping that particular feature is, yes. But they still have difficulty with other features, such as syntax and qualifiers because their basic communication is still word based rather than concept based. Anyone who tends to be very emotive gets the physical features down pretty quickly.

But then, I have even seen some native signers that are not as emotive as I would like to see in ASL. Their signing is boring. Like reading a sentence with no descriptives.

Add an edit here: when I see a deaf signing client suffering from depression, their ASL shows the same sort of impoverishment that is seen in the spoken language of hearing depressed clients.

 

[Berry]

Dunno about PFH but when I translate my pictures into English, most of the time I don't feel like I'm mentally translating my pictures. However, it's somewhat more difficult to translate all the details into prose. Most of the time I don't need to unless I'm doing creative writing and i want to build a certain atmosphere. It's easier to do this in ASL than in prose.

The trick here is to write v e r y s l o w l y . You will find you pick up more details because writing slowly gives you more time to look.

It may sound silly but try it, it works.

And yes, story telling and ASL go together like summer and love.

 

[Berry]

Mmmh, true, I hadn't thought of it as pictures as much as concepts, but maybe it's the same thing. I sometimes finding myself struggling to find the right words to express a concept I hold very clearly in my mind.

I always knew it was crap thinking that "You can't think a thing unless you have a word for it." But cultural difference was brought home to me when I was very young and trying to write a poem. The poem tried to describe the sense you have when you start to walk somewhere and you sort of drift into your mind and just keep going until you wake up and find yourself there. Nowadays it would be called "spaced out" or "brain fart" but there was no term at that time to describe it in English.

A Japanese kid looks at what I am doing and says, "Oh, you mean _____" and supplies a Japanese word for it.

Today there is an old book out called "They Have a Word For It" and I always check that before I go too far in trying to define a concept English lacks.

 

[Berry]

Visual-spatial here. I could "see" my outline during exams. Helps a lot!

Visual-Spatial Resource

Thank you for that link. I share a lot of those traits.

 

[Berry]

In ASL, Time is first if it is important. That is to establish the tense of the conversation.

But to give you a concrete example:

English sentence: The boy climbed the tree.

ASL: Show time by signing *past* Then tree (placed in your visual space), boy (placed in your visual space), climb.

Just as if you were painting a picture; the first thing that you would paint would be the tree. None of the other action can take place without it.

Aye, go from the biggest item to the smallest. I kind of think of it as one of those zoom shots at the beginning of a movie. First you see space with stars, then one star is zoomed in, which is ours, and the Earth to the side of it is focused on. As it zooms into the Earth you see the North American continent, then the states, then a state, then the city, then the apartment, then inside the window. Now you are faced with someone or some people doing something.

Helps me visualize it.

 

[Berry]

A hearing person got angry because I wouldn't talk while I signed. I tried to explain why I can't sign and talk at the same time. I told her that I have to sign it and then say it in English. I couldn't make her understand. I thought she was very unreasonable.

Unfortunately she was not so much being unreasonable as unable to understand why you were obstinately refusing to do what to her was a very reasonable request.

And most Americans are monolingual -- Most of them think other languages just use different words that mean the same as English. They have no concept that other languages are not "Just coded English" like SEE.

I get this about Spanish.

One day someone said something to me in spanish that ended in "Pendejo" and I replied, "No aye pendejo, soy pendejon."

Every one laughed.

My English speaking friend wanted me to translate. For the life of me I cannot. I can explain it, but I cannot translate it. And if I did it would not make sense. It certainly would not be funny.

He thought I just did not want to share the joke.

 

[Berry]

Yea, that's why I hate Sim-Com because it is linguistically confusing for me.

It does. But it sure comes in handy. And it helps me keep in practice when there are no Deaf around. And it helps when I need to interpret. And it drives ASL phobic hearies crazy (an added bonus).

 

[Berry]

I got that too in my warlock's old guild in World of Warcraft. Some hearing guy was complaining he was having a hard time with his ASL lessons because it was all voice off. I told him you're not supposed to sign and talk at the same time in ASL. I guess he dropped his class.

Full immersion, voice off, is the best way to learn.

But it scares the hell out of most hearies.

 

[Berry]

I would really, really like to see an instance of someone simcoming without either language suffering. There are those that claim they can...I am still skeptical until I see it done. Even the rhythm of the two languages are different. I am especially skeptical of those who say they can sign SEE correctly while speaking. They would have to slow their speech to the degree that it would be gibberish. Or drop the essential features of SEE. Either way, both modes are still being adulterated.

But you do improve.

I tend to code switch English. Like instead of saying, "The blue table" or "table blue" or switching ASL to pidgen I tend to say, "The table is blue." Which sticks to ASL grammar without destroying English.

But you make mistakes and when you don't do it for a couple of weeks you make more and so forth.

Anyway I like a challenge.

 

[Berry]

I wonder if it's easier or harder for people who have studied several languages to pick up ASL. I mean, every time you learn a language, you have to learn the rules, like gender agreement, the importance (or lack of importance) for word order, case endings where needed, etc. (If you read the article grendel posted, it goes into that sort of thing in depth.)

A language learner has to be able (or learn to be able) to approach each language as an entity in itself, which might have similarities to other languages, but is still its own system.

ASL uses the visual orientation instead of verbal, so that would be different. Otherwise, it's the same as any other language, looks like, with its own word order indicating importance (like what Jillio said about "tense first") and so on. Maybe people who are used to starting from scratch might already have that habit of knowing that "Ok, things are different here."

In my language classes, the people who had the most difficulty were always the ones who tried to insist on translating to and from English, instead of absorbing the new language for what it was.

Actually I would suggest learning ASL first. Here is why. People think I pick up on languages very quickly (Just wish I did not forget them twice as quickly when I don't use them) but very few have ever known that when learning a new language I ALWAYS hook the new words onto ASL signs and onto words in other languages I know. I personally think hooking a new word onto the physical memory of ASL gives me an advantage.

 

[Beach girl]

Aye, go from the biggest item to the largest. I kind of think of it as one of those zoom shots at the beginning of a movie. First you see space with stars, then one star is zoomed in, which is ours, and the Earth to the side of it is focused on. As it zooms into the Earth you see the North American continent, then the states, then a state, then the city, then the apartment, then inside the window. Now you are faced with someone or some people doing something.

Helps me visualize it.

From the biggest item to the largest? I don't understand that.

 

[Beach girl]

Actually I would suggest learning ASL first. Here is why. People think I pick up on languages very quickly (Just wish I did not forget them twice as quickly when I don't use them) but very few have ever known that when learning a new language I ALWAYS hook the new words onto ASL signs and onto words in other languages I know. I personally think hooking a new word onto the physical memory of ASL gives me an advantage.

Too late for me to learn ASL first.

I agree, you do have an edge by hooking the new words to physical signs. Any time you can get two modes of memory going, you have an advantage.

 

[GrendelQ]

Actually I would suggest learning ASL first. Here is why. People think I pick up on languages very quickly (Just wish I did not forget them twice as quickly when I don't use them) but very few have ever known that when learning a new language I ALWAYS hook the new words onto ASL signs and onto words in other languages I know. I personally think hooking a new word onto the physical memory of ASL gives me an advantage.

Agreed. I'm convinced that hooking English to her ASL framework was the reason Li moved so quickly from having zero English to being age-appropriate within 2 years of her first CI, without AVT or other intensive catch-up therapies. Her grammar remains a bit wacky, she often slips into ASL grammar, but in terms of building vocabulary, it's been a great help in developing a second language rapidly.