Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

[neecy]

Nobody here has ever said that a deaf person can't lead a normal health happy life.

CI's are about giving opportunities to make that life EASIER....but its not saying that a deaf person can't be happy or successful (I know many successful deaf people, so I KNOW what's possible.)

Nobody says deaf people MUST hear - but when you consider the number of deaf people who wear hearing aids - if they don't need to hear - why are they even bothering with HA's? With your statement, Pommie - one would assume that even HA's are bad because they amplify sound - why does a deaf person need amplified sound?

See how ridiculous that statement is? The same goes for CI's - nobody says anybody HAS TO HEAR...but hearing has the opportunity to make a child or adult's life easier. Yes its still a lot of work - nobody said getting a CI was a cakewalk - and if that's the attitude that somebody takes when getting one (there have been a few we've spoken to about that kind of attitude here,) then they don't deserve the CI in the first place. Its not some contraption you can implant, slap on then expect perfect hearing from. It takes hard work, and dedication by the patient/parents. If they aren't willing to make that effort then YES - you will see the failures that are continuously brought up here.

 

[Cloggy]

There are many hearing people who are fully in the deaf world. Since u dont participate in the deaf world, it is not surprising that u wouldnt know.

Again, you jump to conclusions. You should stop that. One of our close friends is a CODA and knows fluent sign. And even though he is inside Deaf culture, he is still able to hear. He does not experience deafness.

The deaf world has deaf, hoh, and hearing people of all races, sexual orienation, and with additional needs.

It is just not limited to deaf people only.

and about gaining confidence, I was denied my deafness and ASL and forced to live like a hearing person. That ruined my confidence...a CI has nothing to do with it because I dont have one and I dont think having a CI would really solve all my problems that I had in the hearing world. U and fuzzy really missed my point.

CI would not solve our problems. I agree. Question is; why would you deny a child to hear..... based on your own experiences???

 

[Cheri]

Methinks that Cloggy and shel90 should kiss and make peace with each others.

 

[shel90]

Again, you jump to conclusions. You should stop that. One of our close friends is a CODA and knows fluent sign. And even though he is inside Deaf culture, he is still able to hear. He does not experience deafness.


CI would not solve our problems. I agree. Question is; why would you deny a child to hear..... based on your own experiences???

U tell me not to jump to conclusion. That goes for the same for u too about asking me why should I deny a child to hear. Where did I say that? I am about respecting the parents' decision to implant or not to implant. If u dont want me to make assumptions then dont do it either.

If u are saying that some people want to deny the child to hear, ask those people, not me. I cant speak for them.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

A lot of deaf parents robbed a deaf child of ability to hear and speak and don't believed that deaf children could live productive lives with various of communication to choose from. Nobody said anything about keeping the child in the hearing culture only, Many of us have said to exposed the child in both worlds.

Simple question:

Would you consider a lot of deaf parents robbed their deaf children to hear and speak that´s because they wear HA, not CI... correct?

Cheri´s post
Most hearing parents are too lazy to spare the time and day to learn sign language as another form of communication with their child. They always seem to find the easy way out as having their child to reply on speech only because of that, that's what kind of language of communication they use in the household.

Fuzzy´s post
Most deaf parents are too lazy to spare the time and day to learn spoken and written language as another form of communication with their child. They always seem to find the easy way out as having their child to reply on sign only because of that, that's what kind of language of communication they use in the household.

You mirrored Cheri´s post... - but you missing one point...is:

Cheri´s post is refering a hearing parents of DEAF children - Cheri view that the hearing parents are too lazy to learn more about deaf world and how to communicate with deaf child but "fix" them to "hear" and want them to speak to be like them.

I has to give Cheri right about this because it´s common to see hearing parents like that. I know what I am saying because my parents are one of them. They are too lazy to learn where I come from and never take me to deaf community... too lazy to correct my speech... Speech therapy at school are the one who train me to speak...

Have you see anything that deaf parents "fix" their hearing children to not hear and want them to sign to be like them? Too lazy? How? I have seen many deaf parents sign with voice to their children. They send their children to hearing school... to hearing world... I am one of them because I beleive that my children should know what I am instead of change myself for them but myself... and know what my chlidren are... Lazy? *scratch my head*

It is important to understand the full nature of their child, not by "fixing me to be deaf" What's more important is to work with deaf children on language development by early implantation and a speech-language specialist. A child can do that FAR MORE BETTER with an implant. If many learned it, any deaf can too.

Fuzzy

Oh I see that HA children of deaf parents are lazy because they did not implant their HA children with CI.

I beleive that you know my many posts that CI itself do not develop deaf children´s language and speech skill but their own moviation.

 

[shel90]

Methinks that Cloggy and shel90 should kiss and make peace with each others.

LOL! I dont have a problem with that.

 

[shel90]

Simple question:

Would you consider a lot of deaf parents robbed their deaf children to hear and speak that´s because they wear HA, not CI... correct?



You mirrored Cheri´s post... - but you missing one point...is:

Cheri´s post is refering a hearing parents of DEAF children - Cheri view that the hearing parents are too lazy to learn more about deaf world and how to communicate with deaf child but "fix" them to "hear" and want them to speak to be like them.

I has to give Cheri right about this because it´s common to see hearing parents like that. I know what I am saying because my parents are one of them. They are too lazy to learn where I come from and never take me to deaf community... too lazy to correct my speech... Speech therapy at school are the one who train me to speak...

Have you see anything that deaf parents "fix" their hearing children to not hear and want them to sign to be like them? Too lazy? How? I have seen many deaf parents sign with voice to their children. They send their children to hearing school... to hearing world... I am one of them because I beleive that my children should know what I am instead of change myself for them but myself... and know what my chlidren are... Lazy? *scratch my head*



Oh I see that HA children of deaf parents are lazy because they did not implant their HA children with CI.

I beleive that you know my many posts that CI itself do not develop deaf children´s language and speech skill but their own moviation.

I agree with u. Growing up, I was the only one who could fully understand my brother's terrible oral skills so I ended up as the terp for him between him and my parents, family members and friends. If they, especially my parents, realized that my brother couldnt develop oral skills, then they should have learned sign language instead of relying on me to interpret for him. As a result, my brother is not very close to our family except for my mom. He finally became close to her when she started learning some basic sign language but it shows that even knowing some sign really makes a big difference for the deaf children. My aunts and uncles always blamed my brother if things went missing or broken at whoever's house during a family gathering. If they really took the time to get to know him, they wouldnt be so quick to blame him for everything.

It is ALL about meeting each other needs instead of the deaf constantly having to meet the hearing needs!!! That's the whole point.

 

[jillio]

"mentioned somewhere that she gained confidence only after she started participating in the deaf culture." is an excellent example how one is not fully into the hearing world when one is deaf. Just as one cannot be fully in the deaf world when hearing...

Exactly, cloggy. And a CI implanted person is not a hearing person, but a def person who hears some, to use your words. Therefore, that child hears, but is not hearing, and cannot fully experience the hearing world. So why would you deny them that environment which they can fully relate to?

 

[Cloggy]

tsk tsk Cloggy, That wasn't even polite or respectful for what you said.

That was not the intention, But even so, could you make sense out of it... ???
Apart from insulting AudioFuzzy, she said nothing. Just put a lot of characters and icons/smilies in the post.
But feel free to interpolate Sweetminds post.... .looking forward to it...

 

[Cloggy]

Exactly, cloggy. And a CI implanted person is not a hearing person, but a def person who hears some, to use your words. Therefore, that child hears, but is not hearing, and cannot fully experience the hearing world. So why would you deny them that environment which they can fully relate to?

Nice abbrevation - def....

You are not deaf, so you cannot fully experience the deaf world. Still, you are comfortable there.

A person that can hear with CI is just as hearing as a hoh person. Are you telling me that a hoh person cannot feel at home in a hearing environment, but only in a deaf/silent environment.

You are wrong!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

]


I agree with u. Growing up, I was the only one who could fully understand my brother's terrible oral skills so I ended up as the terp for him between him and my parents, family members and friends. If they, especially my parents, realized that my brother couldnt develop oral skills, then they should have learned sign language instead of relying on me to interpret for him. As a result, my brother is not very close to our family except for my mom. He finally became close to her when she started learning some basic sign language but it shows that even knowing some sign really makes a big difference for the deaf children. My aunts and uncles always blamed my brother if things went missing or broken at whoever's house during a family gathering. If they really took the time to get to know him, they wouldnt be so quick to blame him for everything.

It is ALL about meeting each other needs instead of the deaf constantly having to meet the hearing needs!!! That's the whole point.

Yes I know what you mean.

My hearing parents rely my one year younger hearing sister to interpret me for them since we were little girls. My sister is the one who can sign and speak and get well with my deaf friends. She died of drug overdose last year ... I took it very badly because she alway told me everything about family situation and anything... we are closed ... I depend on her because she can sign, not my parents. My Dad repeated to admit his mistake and learn to know me better... We contact more and more... My Dad & siblings started to learn to know me last year without my sister. What a sad... My hubby´s family understood me prefect with no complicate (they speak with oral and bit sign with me) but my own parents... ???


One thing, I am surprised that you and your brother are deaf but you both are being treat different by your parents... it got me wondering because you both are deaf. ?

 

[jillio]

I see, thanks.

But I think if you think about it, you'll agree with me that it has very little to do with deafness. or hearing. per se, 9O% or even 99% with psychology.

If a child has high self esteem, and is not ashamed of its disability, it projects confidence, which in turn attracts respect and acceptance.
Deaf children are not the only ones that are treated this way - anyone who's "different" in any way is subjected to bullying, rejection, teasing.
Actually the saddest examples in history of someone 'not fitting in' and who ended up commiting suicide or was killed by a mob are of whole, able people.

As for the bullies, teasers, "ignorants" - they do same to all kind of people. You dress at walmart - you are their object of discrimination. You are underweight, overweight, have acne, wear glasses, wear braces, are considered a "geek' - there is always some azzwhole out to get you.
My mom thaught me that, and not to take note of or put an importance on such dumbsters.

I was growing HoH. I wasn't rejected because of my hearing loss, I myself shyed away from people because of my h/loss. People rather didn't gave me an impression of "me not fitting in" - EYE (I) felt different from others on my own. Many times people actually wanted to be with me, get to know me, but I distinctly distance myself from others.
My brother who'se hearing and speaking ability was considerably worse than mine - had higher self-esteem, and in consequence he was not only well accepted at regular school - he was popular. He was always with the "top dogs", both ways- hearing and deaf.


Why I believe it's how we project ourselves, that's our self esteem that maters - I could see how I and my deaf friend were being treated differently by the same people. I am projecting myself with confidence, even if I don't have it, and will force myself to not to step down from an argument. It cost me but in return I gain respect. I will ask people with dead serious face - what's so funny? don't like my accent? Most times it does the trick.
My friend when upset gets irritated, jittery and incoherent on the account that when he is upset his speech got worse. So people are not treating him as seriously as they should. But if he was more sure of himself, he would get so jittery, and in turn, incoherent.
Oh yeah - and it is extremely important to treat OTHERS with respect to receive respect. I am reminding myself always that the hearing person might be not accustomed to dealing with deaf person and may need longer than others to understand me. I try to be always pleasant when I have to repeat myself ad nauseam.

Shel, for example, mentioned somewhere that she gained confidence only after she started participating in the deaf culture. To me, it means she already lacked confidence BEFORE, and so most likely she was treated the way she was projecting herself. Perhaps if she was always confident, in her hearing enviroment also, she would have had different experiences.
True, what helped her to gain confidence was the ability to communcate- but that doesn't matter in this aspect. You either are confident or you don't.

I am curious - is your son confident, Jill? Does he feels rejected by hearing peers, if he has any?

Fuzzy

Why, yes, fuzzy, he is very confident. I attribute that to his being exposed to an environment, during the years when it was most important, where deafness was the norm. A child is not able to become confident and develop healthy self esteem and self concept if they are in an environment where they are constantly attempting to live up to standards to which they cannot possible adhere. A deaf child will never be a hearing child, and to place them in an environment where all they see are others that are different from themselves, even in some small way, accentuates the difference for that child rather than illustrating the positive. Confidence does not come ffrom being able to hear, or being told that one is capable. Self esteem and positive self concept are not the product of our parents telling us that we are wonderful, and that our disability is nothing to be ashamed of. It comes from being placed in situation in which we are allowed to succeed, and to relate to others on an equal level. A child must experience competence in order to become confident. A child must experience sameness in others in order to have the realistic heuristics on which to base their definition of success. A child must experience acceptance from others in their environment....most specifically peers and other significant adults....in order to develop self acceptance. These are all psychological constructs that have a tremendous impact not just on the child, but on the adult that child is to become. And these constructs cannot develop fully in a vacuum, or in isolation from the environment that allow that development to occur.

And to answer your third question, of course my son experienced rejection from, and discrimination from, hearing peers. We did not live in an all deaf neighborhood. He was not isolated without exposure to others who were hearing. From an early age, when peer relationships are beginning to develop, he experienced the same rejection from hearing peers that all deaf children experience...usually those experiences that a parent determines is "no bi deal" and tries to mitigate by simply telling the deaf child, "Oh, don't worry. It doesn't mattter. You are just as good as those kids are. They just don't know any better."

Well, I'm sorry, but it does matter. It matters tremendously to that child and to their self esteem and self concept. No matter how a parent tries to tellthat child that it doesn't matter, no matter how much a parent wants to believe that being excluded from a game of hide and seek with the neighborhood kids is inconsequential, it has a tremendous impact on that child. Children are very much aware of even slight differences in the way they are perceived and the way others respond to them. And unless they are provided the experience of being the same, of developing relationships with others fromwhom thery are not different, they will use those slights as the basis for determining their own self worth. And they will come up wanting.

You cannot mitigate the effects of this with a hug and a "Way to go!" You must provide them the environment that allows them to experience it first hand from peers and other adults. They use these experiences as a mirror that reflects back to them who they are and how competent they are. The experiences of rejection that my son experienced in his early dealings were mitigated by attending a deaf school and being placed in just such an environment. The deaf school, and exposure to Deaf culture, gave him another mirror through which to view himself. And that effectively permitted him to develop confidence in himself as a capable person. Those are the skills that have allowed him to develop healthy relationships with hearing peers today. He does have hearing friends, and he does have relationships with other hearing people. However, they are healthy relationships, and they are founded not on his need to fit and and be accpeted by hearingpeople, but on the natural interaction that occurs in an integrated environment. If a hearing persontoday treats my son as less than an equal, he simply avoids that particular person. He has learned to choose his friends wisely, because he was exposed to an environment that permitted a healthy development of self efficacy.

And, if this were not a constant that remains true, I would not be couseling deaf teenagers who have been isolated from the deaf community on a daily basis. These are the very issues that these kids deal with in group.

 

[shel90]

Nice abbrevation - def....

You are not deaf, so you cannot fully experience the deaf world. Still, you are comfortable there.

A person that can hear with CI is just as hearing as a hoh person. Are you telling me that a hoh person cannot feel at home in a hearing environment, but only in a deaf/silent environment.

You are wrong!

Really then explain this....

http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/45080-tired-being-middle-hoh-woman-cali.html

This is not the only thread started by a hoh person feeling like they dont fit in anywhere. I have many friends who are hoh and are happy that they have found ASL and the Deaf community after struggling with the hearing world only. They have expressed, like me, wishes of having both instead of just only the hearing world only growing up.

 

[shel90]

Why, yes, fuzzy, he is very confident. I attribute that to his being exposed to an environment, during the years when it was most important, where deafness was the norm. A child is not able to become confident and develop healthy self esteem and self concept if they are in an environment where they are constantly attempting to live up to standards to which they cannot possible adhere. A deaf child will never be a hearing child, and to place them in an environment where all they see are others that are different from themselves, even in some small way, accentuates the difference for that child rather than illustrating the positive. Confidence does not come ffrom being able to hear, or being told that one is capable. Self esteem and positive self concept are not the product of our parents telling us that we are wonderful, and that our disability is nothing to be ashamed of. It comes from being placed in situation in which we are allowed to succeed, and to relate to others on an equal level. A child must experience competence in order to become confident. A child must experience sameness in others in order to have the realistic heuristics on which to base their definition of success. A child must experience acceptance from others in their environment....most specifically peers and other significant adults....in order to develop self acceptance. These are all psychological constructs that have a tremendous impact not just on the child, but on the adult that child is to become. And these constructs cannot develop fully in a vacuum, or in isolation from the environment that allow that development to occur.

And to answer your third question, of course my son experienced rejection from, and discrimination from, hearing peers. We did not live in an all deaf neighborhood. He was not isolated without exposure to others who were hearing. From an early age, when peer relationships are beginning to develop, he experienced the same rejection from hearing peers that all deaf children experience...usually those experiences that a parent determines is "no bi deal" and tries to mitigate by simply telling the deaf child, "Oh, don't worry. It doesn't mattter. You are just as good as those kids are. They just don't know any better."

Well, I'm sorry, but it does matter. It matters tremendously to that child and to their self esteem and self concept. No matter how a parent tries to tellthat child that it doesn't matter, no matter how much a parent wants to believe that being excluded from a game of hide and seek with the neighborhood kids is inconsequential, it has a tremendous impact on that child. Children are very much aware of even slight differences in the way they are perceived and the way others respond to them. And unless they are provided the experience of being the same, of developing relationships with others fromwhom thery are not different, they will use those slights as the basis for determining their own self worth. And they will come up wanting.

You cannot mitigate the effects of this with a hug and a "Way to go!" You must provide them the environment that allows them to experience it first hand from peers and other adults. They use these experiences as a mirror that reflects back to them who they are and how competent they are. The experiences of rejection that my son experienced in his early dealings were mitigated by attending a deaf school and being placed in just such an environment. The deaf school, and exposure to Deaf culture, gave him another mirror through which to view himself. And that effectively permitted him to develop confidence in himself as a capable person. Those are the skills that have allowed him to develop healthy relationships with hearing peers today. He does have hearing friends, and he does have relationships with other hearing people. However, they are healthy relationships, and they are founded not on his need to fit and and be accpeted by hearingpeople, but on the natural interaction that occurs in an integrated environment. If a hearing persontoday treats my son as less than an equal, he simply avoids that particular person. He has learned to choose his friends wisely, because he was exposed to an environment that permitted a healthy development of self efficacy.

And, if this were not a constant that remains true, I would not be couseling deaf teenagers who have been isolated from the deaf community on a daily basis. These are the very issues that these kids deal with in group.

Thank you!!! That is exactly what I am talking about on how I gained my confidence and now I dont have to worry about being constantly in an environment or around people that treat me like a 2nd class citizen. My hearing husband respected my deaf needs and worked hard to meet them and I respect his hearing needs. That is ALL it TAKES!!! Implanting children wont make those problems go away completely.

 

[jillio]

"Tell the parents I said, "Help your child; you are the adult, you bear the burden of resposibility to give the child all the possibilities life can give" - Definitely not Harlan Lane



Do you realise you make no sense at all...
Get someone to translate your ASL into writing.... and post it again...

Don't you dare to criticise another posters language usage. Until you become perfect in your usage of the language, you have no right to criicse any one else. That is the most childish and unfeeling behavior possible. If it were directed at your child, who, by the way, is language delayed according to your reports, you would be indignant. If you want your own deaf child to be treated with respect, then you must treat others with the same respect. If you want others to show empathy for your child's situation, then you must demonstrate that empathy. This behavior is completely unacceptable, and if this is what you are demonstrating in your home, then you are giving your children a very dangerous message. This is how bigots are created.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I'm not. That's the whole point...



Deaf children without cochlear implants don't have free will to choose, Parents make the choice which world the child should explore to, while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds, don't you think it'll be fair for the child to know both worlds?

Cloggy that is also why I chose to raise my children orally with CIs so that when they older like they are now they could choose what world they wanted to live in.

 

[jillio]

I could hear so much sounds via my has.. but I've never consider myself 'being hearing'.. I've had a wish of being more close to deaf world than hearing but this seems imposssible due to some reasons.. what a crock :| anyways,I'm trying to do fine.. I'm just me not regarding whatever world I live in

Yes, highlands, that is exactly what I was talking about. You judged what you were able to hear through your HAs based onthe way that hearing people were, not on hwat other deaf were able to hear through HAs. You needed a different mirror in which to see yourself.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I don't care if your children were born hearing or deaf or whatever Cheri.
As I already explained to Angel it's the INTENT that counts not factual situation. Suppose your children were born deaf, what would you do?
Don't shove that pretty head of yours into the sand, have a decency to answer truthfully considering BELOW:

~ do you CHERI understand that it is early implantation that provides best outcome from having CI, and once you MISS this window of opportunity before the child is two, it will never be recovered?
That means the theory "let the children decide" is as good as last year snow to make snowman TODAY. If you decide, decide NOW now when the child is NOT YET over two.





And hearing parents even more so can can give a child both choices WITHOUT robbing a child from an opportunity to hear,
like it sadly a lot of deaf parents do.




I am glad too You are right, plus I tend to think it's also our temper that gets the better of us

Fuzzy

So True Fuzzy, this is why as a teacher I love the age that I work with because I help parents realize that no matter what apporach they use they need to really focus on it during this age span. Also my son has done a lot better in school then my daughter because he was diagnosis younger, implant younger, and place in oral language rich envirnoment at younger age. And my daughter has a higher IQ, she does well in school but puts a lot more effort then my son does.

 

[shel90]

Don't you dare to criticise another posters language usage. Until you become perfect in your usage of the language, you have no right to criicse any one else. That is the most childish and unfeeling behavior possible. If it were directed at your child, who, by the way, is language delayed according to your reports, you would be indignant. If you want your own deaf child to be treated with respect, then you must treat others with the same respect. If you want others to show empathy for your child's situation, then you must demonstrate that empathy. This behavior is completely unacceptable, and if this is what you are demonstrating in your home, then you are giving your children a very dangerous message. This is how bigots are created.

Yep and that behavior is a perfect example of the many discriminationatory behavior by hearing people towards deaf people. And hearing people wonder why deaf people are angry? Hello, there is a perfect example...criticizing one's English skills when it wasnt the deaf person's fault due to not having full access to language during the first 5 years of life.

 

[jillio]

There are many hearing people who are fully in the deaf world. Since u dont participate in the deaf world, it is not surprising that u wouldnt know.

The deaf world has deaf, hoh, and hearing people of all races, sexual orienation, and with additional needs.

It is just not limited to deaf people only.

and about gaining confidence, I was denied my deafness and ASL and forced to live like a hearing person. That ruined my confidence...a CI has nothing to do with it because I dont have one and I dont think having a CI would really solve all my problems that I had in the hearing world. U and fuzzy really missed my point.

The whole point is that a child needs to experience an environment where they are able to develop self esteem and confidencde from the experience. Parents cannot give them self confidence. The child must develop it, and they can be in an envirnment that impedes it, or they can be inan environment that fosters it. That, too, is a choice that parents must make. Choosing CI or not choosing CI is only the beginning. It doesn't end there, despite the fact that so many hearing parents think that is the only decision they need to make regarding their child's experience with deafness. That "as long as I decide to implant, and they can hear something, everything else will be fine." is a harmful, destructive attitude. Again, I say, look at the whole child, not just their ears and their mouth.