Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

[jillio]

With the assumption that manuel meaning ASL. I was given the opportunity to learn it growing up. Finally learned it at 28 years old.

If the CI is capable of allowing the profoundly deaf children the ability to acquire spoken language then why were many profoundly deaf people, like me, were able to acquire spoken language and many implanted children not able to acquire spoken language? I think it all depends on the children themselves not the device but for those who have the mechanics to acquire spoken language, then the CI would make it easier, sure but not improve their lives. It is all about how one views him/herself.

BINGO!

 

[rick48]

With the assumption that manuel meaning ASL. I was given the opportunity to learn it growing up. Finally learned it at 28 years old. That doesnt make me a proponent of a deaf child being exposed to both. I was denied exposure to Deaf culture cuz the specialists told me that I was too smart for them and didnt need ASL so I believed them. That was very unethical of them and I wish I knew what I know now back then cuz I would have reported them.

If the CI is the only thing capable of allowing the profoundly deaf children the ability to acquire spoken language then why were many profoundly deaf people without CIs, like me, were able to acquire spoken language and many implanted children not able to acquire spoken language? I think it all depends on the children themselves not the device but for those who have the mechanics to acquire spoken language, then the CI would make it easier, sure but not improve their lives. It is all about how one views him/herself.

So now you are not a proponent of children being exposed to both a manual and a spoken language? So you are against oral only but support sign only. Interesting.

Do you really believe that there are many profoundly deaf children without implants who acquire spoken language and especially to the degree that implanted children do? How many children have you been around who have been implanted at an early age and received oral speech and language therapy and who have not acquired spoken language? I know some but they are a very distinct minority. Have you not listened to the adults on this board who have told us the vast difference between what they hear now with their cis versus what they heard with their HAs?

You just want to play semantics, a child who benefits from a ci so that he can acquire spoken language has it "easier" but it does not really improve his life. Ok gotcha.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Alot of hearing parents robbed the child out on the ability to learned about it's deaf culture and sign language.

A lot of deaf parents robbed the child of ability to hear and speak by not implanting them on time and keeping in deaf culture only.

Having hearing is not requirement to live an independence life or to have a bright future. There are many deaf people who live an independence life and had a bright future.

I never said it was.

Hearing parents have no knowledge of the deaf when they bring a deaf child in the world,

And the deaf parents have no clue how valuable a hearing is.
When faced with their born deaf child, they are scared of CI so badly they are afraid to take the responsibility of implanting on time, and push the decision on the child, who is too immature to think for itself for many years to come, let alone to know if they need an implant or not.
(For god's sake if you ask the kid what it wants for dinner it will want chocolate cake. and you want it to decide about CI.)

Most Deaf parents who have hearing children being raised in a Deaf household would raise in a hearing world because the child itself is hearing.

yes, but it is not beacuse the deaf parents are so wonderfully tolerant and understanding parents who bend backwards to provide the hearing world for their hearing children, they simply ARE in hearing world,
so it simply is NATURAL for the hearing child to go to a HEARING SCHOOL, to play with HEARING children of the neighbours, to HEAR hearing people everywhere.

It certainly is not because the deaf parents chose the ORAL ways of communication, or to have ONLY hearing friends in order to provide hearing enviroment for their child.
On the contrary, all the deaf parents I knew and know, they are fully immersed in the deaf culture, their children communicate with them via sign language. Not only that, these children since young age are forced to be convenient interpreters for their deaf parents.

If a hearing parent only want to explore their deaf child into a hearing world only, that means they're selfish parents who don't think of their deaf child. Sorry to say that but it's the truth.

No more selfish than the deaf parents who deny their deaf children an opportunity to hear, and procrastinate when it's the best time to implant and thus keep them in their deaf world only.

And I think one thing that people seem to ignore hee.....there is a lot going on developmentally for a child when they are a baby and young child besides language acquisition. When you have to spend so much time and energy on drilling spoken language into that child, and teaching them to "hear", those other developmental needs to not get addressed, and that child ends up with delays other than just language. Is having a child that speaks so well that they can pass as hearing so important that you are justified in neglecting their other developmental needs?

I respectfully disagree. If the child is implanted early enough, with enough determination on the parent's side everything can be accomplished very well. It just takes good organization. I don't see Lottie (Cloggy's daughter) being "drilled" into having spoken language, nor do I think she is in other ways being developmentally delayed.

Besides CI is designed not for "passing" as a hearie, but just as an assistive device. No, of course it's not intended to hinder any other development.

The real question is not whether they can communicate with hearing society, but on whose terms

Exactly, Jill. I can tell you on whose terms - on HEARING PEOPLE's terms. ALWAYS.

I want them to be oral if possible so that when they were teenagers or adults they can chose for themselves what world they want to live in. You see my children can now chose to live in the Deaf culture if they want they just take off their devices and that is it. But if I raised my children solely with sign language and then they wanted to be oral in their teenage years they wouldn't be able too. I know some of my daughter sigining only friends wish they were able to talk but it is too late for them

I wish more people would understand that...

Actually, the initial post is about some unidentified woman in a school. We are not even told what her position is. She is in fact, talking about an individual child with a cochlear implant.

What about it. Go back and re-read the post and you will see that what we are being told is the author's perception of what she overheard (remember that the author is HOH so can you really be certain that she heard the entire conversation correctly?). We are also getting her perception filtered through her personal bias against cochlear implants and I will bet that she is also against mainstreaming.

You know what Rick you ABSOLUTELY got a point here.
We should all remember that before we get our panties in a tight wad...

Did you not read my post. I am the parent of deaf children that have implants I have lived through this have you.

Jackie, some people are NOT interested in learnign anything, only in bashing CI.

Jackie...what Jillo just said goes the same for me. It is the attidudes that I am very much against and usually the parents (the ones I have encountered) got the CIs cuz they heard stories about it making deaf children talk and hear like hearing children. Many of them said that they were told that the CI will open doors for them.

And because of some people's attitude the deaf children should NOT have an opportunity to be able to hear with CI?

they kept saying how CIs "open" more doors for deaf children.

Can you honestly say that they absolutely don't? Not in the littlest bit??

I agree with you that the closer a parent chooses to implant their child to the onset of that child's deafness, the greater the probablility there will be that the child will receive more benefits from the implant. However, I would not go so far as to say that there is practically no point in implanting a child born deaf past the age of three for I know many kids who fall into that category who are doing very well with their implants.

You are right Rick, after all I am the one who says CI is a good thing at ANY age, and not so far ago while discussing with Shel I also insisted that any sound heard with CI as opposed to NONE before is a success.
I guess in my haste to shock some people into realising how important early implantation is, how BIG a difference a time of implantation makes, I worded my message rather badly.

You told it much better what I meant - that the parent who states that generally he is "not against CI" yet leaves the decision to the child (in the the popular chorus here "let the child decide") for much later - by doing this this parent rendeers the idea practically pointless.

Because, why chose now to implant later if the RIGHT time for it is RIGHT NOW????
That is why I compared it to using last year snow to make a snowman today.
My saying "there is no point" was specifically about pointless concept "let the child decide".
yeah right.. after when the best time have passed irrevocably?

That of course does not mean that CI per se is not worth having at any time. It IS, but the best opportunity for receiving the greatest benefits from it is before the age of three, and should not be missed.
like you say- to ""let the child decide""" is bogus, and an evidence of lacking an education about human language development.
sadly too many seem NOT to understand it.

If the CI is the only thing capable of allowing the profoundly deaf children the ability to acquire spoken language then why were many profoundly deaf people without CIs, like me, were able to acquire spoken language and many implanted children not able to acquire spoken language?

Shel, first of all what exactly do you mean by "spoken language", is it purely an ability to speak, and clearly at that, or is just good understanding of spoken language and thus as good understanding of written language, in our case- written English?

because in the case of being able to speak, if the child was born truly profoundly deaf it is very unlikely that it will be able to speak later, even with HA.
My guess is you must have not been born as profoundly deaf as you are now and in additon to that you were raised in hearing enviroment, these things make an enormous difference.

And we already have discussed once the benefits of early implantation and the risks of having a late one, and the importance of providing speech therapy after implantation, and also the willingness of an individual to work toward understanding sound and learning to speak, and the difference between being deafened prelingually and postligually etc. - that is why some CI children are not able to acquire spoken language.

There is this underlying message that getting a CI would improve lives of many deaf children.

Because it does. But it's also important to know what exactly one thinks of as "an improvement". Being able to finally hear a fire alarm is not an improvement?

Why is there no point? I have seen children who got implanted after 3 and were able to benefit greatly from them just as I have see children who got implanted before 3 but couldnt benefit much from them.

Please see my reply to Rick.
What I meant there is no point for the parent to delay implantation, rather that no point in implanting per se. I just expressed myself badly.

But anyway the children who got implanted with good results after the age of three would have received even greater benefits if implanted earlier. Wasn't it still a waste, then, to delay the implantation time? remember my money saving comparison. time lost is time never recovered.

As for the children who were implanted before the age of three but not received as great results- remember, we already speculated what could have gone wrong, starting with inadequate therapy after implanting,
ending with the possibility of hearing loss being more serious and different than previously thought.

As I've said there sure is always an explanation, only we don't know what.

Fuzzy

 

[Cloggy]

That's BS Cloggy. Most members here had explored and still explores in both worlds.

..........

Most members cannot hear. So without hearing, living in both worlds would be like being American, living in china, but only speaking english... Are you then really living in two worlds??

Children with CI really experience the hearing world. And if they choose, they can experience the deaf world as well. TO me that sounds like a REAL choice.

 

[shel90]

So now you are not a proponent of children being exposed to both a manual and a spoken language? So you are against oral only but support sign only. Interesting.

Wow, u must have missed the countless posts that I have stated that I support the use of both oral and sign for all children which is called BiBi.

Do you really believe that there are many profoundly deaf children without implants who acquire spoken language and especially to the degree that implanted children do? How many children have you been around who have been implanted at an early age and received oral speech and language therapy and who have not acquired spoken language? I know some but they are a very distinct minority. Have you not listened to the adults on this board who have told us the vast difference between what they hear now with their cis versus what they heard with their HAs?

You just want to play semantics, a child who benefits from a ci so that he can acquire spoken language has it "easier" but it does not really improve his life. Ok gotcha.

One of my students this year got implanted and she can easily use spoken language just as the same with my other student who was referred from the oral program who has no implant. He can speak well enough too.

My best friend is profoundly deaf since birth and she can talk on the phone. No implants. My other friend who was born deaf speaks fluent Spanish due to growing up in Puerto Rico..she has no implants. There are so many more..

Yes, it makes it easier but if one's life's quality is measured on how well they can hear then that means there is the assumption that all deaf people who dont have implants lead a poor quality life. Interesting.

Hey everyone, our quality of life depends on how well we can hear!!! Wow! I didnt know that!

 

[shel90]

Most members cannot hear. So without hearing, living in both worlds would be like being American, living in china, but only speaking english... Are you then really living in two worlds??

Children with CI really experience the hearing world. And if they choose, they can experience the deaf world as well. TO me that sounds like a REAL choice.

Wow...that is so amazing.

Hey deaf users without CIs, we have no "real" experiences with the hearing world. We have been living a lie!!!!

 

[shel90]

These kinds of views like how CIs improve deaf people lives, deaf people without CIs dont really experience the hearing world or cant explore both worlds, and that deaf parents are selfish for not implanting their deaf children show utter lack of respect for those who dont have implants. I dont think u really have ever met successful and happy deaf people who dont have CIs. U all really dont have a clue about the Deaf community.

Again, it is the parents' or families' personal decision whether to implant the child or not and none of us should bash them which includes the ones who decide to implant AND the ones who decide not to implant.


All children whether implanted or not should be given the opportunity to experience both worlds and use both languages. That is MY belief. I do believe that will bring people together and the CI shouldnt be the deciding factor but with that view, it will be. :roll:

 

[Cloggy]

Wow...that is so amazing.

Hey deaf users without CIs, we have no "real" experiences with the hearing world. We have been living a lie!!!!

So... you cannot answer the question I guess...
Can we fully experience deafness when we can hear. Can you really experience hearing when you are deaf??

 

[shel90]

So... you cannot answer the question I guess...

I have no idea what is your definition of living in the "real" hearing world so I cant answer. That just does not make sense. LOL!

 

[Cheri]

Most members cannot hear. So without hearing, living in both worlds would be like being American, living in china, but only speaking english... Are you then really living in two worlds??

Children with CI really experience the hearing world. And if they choose, they can experience the deaf world as well. TO me that sounds like a REAL choice.

Lol! This is so non-sense, Cloggy.

You know those who can hear is like living life in a construction, Living the world of silence is much better than a noise pollution. Thank you very much.

Having hearing is not even important as it is as language, which is necessary for learning, In the real world, You have to know how to communicate, not necessary for hearing sounds.

It sounds to me you don't even have enough confidence in yourself or in your daughter, because of that you think having hearing is the only way to live in society. You refused to determined to see how we can live life in both worlds without hearing. It's how we manage our life to develop language communication to have connected to the world and we also have technological aids such as TTYs, captioning, fax machines, and vibrating or flashing alarms and interpreters.

In the society, the fact they already have a population living among themselves black, Hispanic, Asiatic and native. Do they have to be white to live in the society? The answer is no, either does having hearing. In this world it's allow to have different communication styles.

This world belongs not only to hearing persons but also to deaf and hard of hearing, blind, handicapped, list goes on. We do have a choice to exposed in which world. Thank you very much.

 

[shel90]

Lol! This is so non-sense, Cloggy.

You know those who can hear is like living life in a construction, Living the world of silence is much better than a noise pollution. Thank you very much.

Having hearing is not even important as it is as language, which is necessary for learning, In the real world, You have to know how to communicate, not necessary for hearing sounds.

It sounds to me you don't even have enough confidence in yourself or in your daughter, because of that you think having hearing is the only way to live in society. You refused to determined to see how we can live life in both worlds without hearing. It's how we manage our life to develop language communication to have connected to the world and we also have technological aids such as TTYs, captioning, fax machines, and vibrating or flashing alarms and interpreters.

In the society, the fact they already have a population living among themselves black, Hispanic, Asiatic and native. Do they have to be white to live in the society? The answer is no, either does having hearing. In this world it's allow to have different communication styles.

This world belongs not only to hearing persons but also to deaf and hard of hearing, blind, handicapped, list goes on. We do have a choice to exposed in which world. Thank you very much.

I couldnt believe the comments that were made about how deaf people who are not implanted dont really have a choice of exploring both world. That was orginal!

 

[dreama]

I didn't mind being sent away to deaf school because I had problems with my family so I was glad I didn't have to deal with them every day.

I can understand that. My parents were always arguing and throwing major tantrums which me and my brother found very stressful. My brother spent a lot of time round at his friends place just to escape them.

 

[Cheri]

A lot of deaf parents robbed the child of ability to hear and speak by not implanting them on time and keeping in deaf culture only.

A lot of hearing parents robbed a deaf child of ability to be deaf and don't believed that deaf children could live productive lives with various of communication to choose from. Nobody said anything about keeping the child in the deaf culture only, Many of us have said to exposed the child in both worlds. Don't start twisting words around.

Most hearing parents are too lazy to spare the time and day to learn sign language as another form of communication with their child. They always seem to find the easy way out as having their child to reply on speech only because of that, that's what kind of language of communication they use in the household.

It is important to understand the full nature of their child, not by "fixing me to be hearing" What's more important is to work with deaf children on language development by a speech-language specialist. A child can do that without even needed of an implant. If I learned it, any deaf can too.

 

[dreama]

Why is there no point? I have seen children who got implanted after 3 and were able to benefit greatly from them just as I have see children who got implanted before 3 but couldnt benefit much from them.

I'm glad you said that since your work involves deaf children who are implanted before AND after age 3 so you should know what you are talking about and I think your experience is worth a lot more then a lot of these pro CI studies. Many of which were conducted using animal models. Since humans and other animals react differantly a lot of what they come up with is not true anyway. For one thing in the case of most other animals they develop at a far greater rate, even taking into consideration their shortened lifespan.

I would be very curious to know from your own personal experience with your pupils have you noticed any cut off point after which a child fails to benifit from CI's?

 

[Cloggy]

I couldnt believe the comments that were made about how deaf people who are not implanted dont really have a choice of exploring both world. That was orginal!

YOu don't have to prove you don't understand... we get it.....

Lol! This is so non-sense, Cloggy.

You know those who can hear is like living life in a construction, Living the world of silence is much better than a noise pollution. Thank you very much.

.... and that sentence shows you do not experience the hearing world..
For some reason you need to convince yourself that hearing is bad... otherewise, you wouldn't need sound-pollution as an example. For some reason, you need to discard all the beautiful sounds in the world..

So, thank you for showing that you are not experiencing the hearing world..

Having hearing is not even important as it is as language, which is necessary for learning, In the real world, You have to know how to communicate, not necessary for hearing sounds.

It sounds to me you don't even have enough confidence in yourself or in your daughter, because of that you think having hearing is the only way to live in society.

Wrong interpretation.... I do not believe it's the only way. Why would you want to pin that on me.....

You refused to determined to see how we can live life in both worlds without hearing. It's how we manage our life to develop language communication to have connected to the world and we also have technological aids such as TTYs, captioning, fax machines, and vibrating or flashing alarms and interpreters.

Another misinterpretation... I have not even hinted that.... Why are you so desperate to put all this nonsens in my mouth...
Read my statement again....

In the society, the fact they already have a population living among themselves black, Hispanic, Asiatic and native. Do they have to be white to live in the society? The answer is no, either does having hearing. In this world it's allow to have different communication styles.

This world belongs not only to hearing persons but also to deaf and hard of hearing, blind, handicapped, list goes on. We do have a choice to exposed in which world. Thank you very much.

Agreed....
The world belongs to all of us...
But to continue with your example... can you live the life of a black person - you cannot. An indian - you cannot, a hearing person .... you cannot.

That is my point.
I cannot live the life of a black person, an indian, a deaf person...

 

[Angel]

Lol! This is so non-sense, Cloggy.

You know those who can hear is like living life in a construction, Living the world of silence is much better than a noise pollution. Thank you very much.

Having hearing is not even important as it is as language, which is necessary for learning, In the real world, You have to know how to communicate, not necessary for hearing sounds.

It sounds to me you don't even have enough confidence in yourself or in your daughter, because of that you think having hearing is the only way to live in society. You refused to determined to see how we can live life in both worlds without hearing. It's how we manage our life to develop language communication to have connected to the world and we also have technological aids such as TTYs, captioning, fax machines, and vibrating or flashing alarms and interpreters.

In the society, the fact they already have a population living among themselves black, Hispanic, Asiatic and native. Do they have to be white to live in the society? The answer is no, either does having hearing. In this world it's allow to have different communication styles.

This world belongs not only to hearing persons but also to deaf and hard of hearing, blind, handicapped, list goes on. We do have a choice to exposed in which world. Thank you very much.

Well said sis, I was speechless when I read Cloggy's post..

 

[shel90]

YOu don't have to prove you don't understand... we get it.....

.... and that sentence shows you do not experience the hearing world..
For some reason you need to convince yourself that hearing is bad... otherewise, you wouldn't need sound-pollution as an example. For some reason, you need to discard all the beautiful sounds in the world..

So, thank you for showing that you are not experiencing the hearing world..


Wrong interpretation.... I do not believe it's the only way. Why would you want to pin that on me.....


Another misinterpretation... I have not even hinted that.... Why are you so desperate to put all this nonsens in my mouth...
Read my statement again....

Agreed....
The world belongs to all of us...
But to continue with your example... can you live the life of a black person - you cannot. An indian - you cannot, a hearing person .... you cannot.

That is my point.
I cannot live the life of a black person, an indian, a deaf person...

Oh geez...u dont want us to judge how you and your daughter lives so better not start judging on how we, deaf people, live our lives. My god!

 

[Tousi]

Shel, maybe your exterminator this morning exterminated the wrong thing.

 

[Cheri]

and that sentence shows you do not experience the hearing world..

Is that correct? I supposed my previous and presents jobs are based on one big lie huh? I supposed I never step a foot out on the real world huh? Because of that I have no experience in the real world just like you stated.

Whatever you say, Cloggy.

 

[shel90]

Shel, maybe your exterminator this morning exterminated the wrong thing.

LOL! He exterminating too much hearing view so I am surrounded by ghosts telling me ASL is bad, work harder on your speech!!!!, u are deaf and dumb, PAY ATTENTION to class stop daydreaming, and relay hung ups. LOL!

U know it is funny..since I learned ASL and finally be around others like me, I dont face as much discrimination in the hearing world like before. Probably cuz of how I carry myself now...with confidence.