Grammar

Ribs said:
In ASL is there a specific pattern you are supposed to follow? if so what?
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Yes there is. When asking a question put at the end a question sign. Like, for example, "your-name-what". That would be used in order to ask someone his or her name. That is called a WH question.

There is also Object verb format. An example would be, cup-want. Like if you want a cup or you are shopping for cups and are looking at a specific one you want. Object verb is more like English, but its still valid ASL.

Negation is also another way of signing. You negate whatever you are signing. Like, for example, apples-have-none. Meaning, you have no apples or you need to get some apples.

Remember when signing to use facial expressions. Facial expressions are a huge part of ASL grammar and many forget to use them.

There is a lot more, but that should get you started. :)
 
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Not if you are using passive voice.

The way I described is the way I was taught by native Deaf signers.
 
jasin said:
ASL is not English!!! ASL is a separate language!!!
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Right, it's as simple as that!

Anyone has to remember that the ASL was invented by a French man (Clerc, I think) so hence as why it's used much like French that it's English... and still does.

Although I probably say it's quite odd as why didn't they adapt it to mere like English that French sometime in the past (say well after the ASL invention), however... ain't that rather bit strange? Do anyone notice that?
 
web730 said:
Right, it's as simple as that!

Anyone has to remember that the ASL was invented by a French man (Clerc, I think) so hence as why it's used much like French that it's English... and still does.

Although I probably say it's quite odd as why didn't they adapt it to mere like English that French sometime in the past (say well after the ASL invention), however... ain't that rather bit strange? Do anyone notice that?
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Thomas Gallaudet was asked by his neighbor to travel Europe to find a tutor for his deaf daughter, Alice. While Gallaudet was doing this, he met Abbe Sicard, head of the Institution Nationale des Sourds-Muets a Paris (National Institution of Deaf-mute in Paris) who invited him to come and study their methods of education. Here he learned sign language and he was impressed with their results and was able to convince of the graduates of the school, Laurent Clerk, to help Gallaudet with the deaf education in America. The two were able to raise enough money to open a school for Alice to attend with six other deaf students and hearing students.
 
Ribs said:
Thomas Gallaudet was asked by his neighbor to travel Europe to find a tutor for his deaf daughter, Alice. While Gallaudet was doing this, he met Abbe Sicard, head of the Institution Nationale des Sourds-Muets a Paris (National Institution of Deaf-mute in Paris) who invited him to come and study their methods of education. Here he learned sign language and he was impressed with their results and was able to convince of the graduates of the school, Laurent Clerk, to help Gallaudet with the deaf education in America. The two were able to raise enough money to open a school for Alice to attend with six other deaf students and hearing students.
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I've never heard of Alice Gallaudet though I certainly have heard of Alice Cogswell the daughter of Dr. Manson Cogswell.
 
jillio said:
Not if you are using passive voice.

The way I described is the way I was taught by native Deaf signers.
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There is some debate about whether or not ASL even has passive voice. The current consensus among linguists is that it doesn't. For example, the English sentence "The house was built 20-years ago" doesn't have an ASL equivalent because you need a subject to do the action. The ASL sentence "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE BUILD FINISH" makes it look like the house did the building, so you have to invent a subject such as "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH".
 
web730 said:
Anyone has to remember that the ASL was invented by a French man (Clerc, I think) so hence as why it's used much like French that it's English... and still does.
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He didn't invent ASL though he was instrumental in guiding its early development. He brought FSL to America but noticed that a rudimentary form of signed communication had already begun to develop spontaneously among American Deaf, so he help craft a pidgin of sorts between FSL and American "home signs", and as the language matured it became what we know today as ASL.
 
Mountain Man said:
There is some debate about whether or not ASL even has passive voice. The current consensus among linguists is that it doesn't. For example, the English sentence "The house was built 20-years ago" doesn't have an ASL equivalent because you need a subject to do the action. The ASL sentence "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE BUILD FINISH" makes it look like the house did the building, so you have to invent a subject such as "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH".
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There is ongoing debate, but native users will also demonstrate passive voice in conversation through markers and grammar.
 
jillio said:
There is ongoing debate, but native users will also demonstrate passive voice in conversation through markers and grammar.
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Yes, passive voice can be demonstrated in ASL through various techniques, but my understanding is that passive voice as an actual grammatical feature doesn't exist in the language.
 
Mountain Man said:
Yes, passive voice can be demonstrated in ASL through various techniques, but my understanding is that passive voice as an actual grammatical feature doesn't exist in the language.
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Janzen, Terry.
O'Dea, Barbara.
Shaffer, Barbara.
The Construal of Events: Passives in American Sign Language
Sign Language Studies - Volume 1, Number 3, Spring 2001, pp. 281-310

Gallaudet University Press

The possibility of a passive construction existing in ASL has been alluded to from time to time in the literature on ASL grammar, but discussion is infrequent, and the usual conclusion is that a passive does not, in fact, exist. We contend, however, that a particular configuration of ASL grammatical features surrounding an otherwise transitive verb qualifies as a fully passive construction, and that these passives are more frequent in ASL discourse than may have been realized. This discussion continues and expands upon an earlier proposal in which we identify grammatical and functional characteristics of passive constructions in ASL discourse
 
Mountain Man said:
Yes, passive voice can be demonstrated in ASL through various techniques, but my understanding is that passive voice as an actual grammatical feature doesn't exist in the language.
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If it can be demonstrated, then it exists grammatically. Not perhaps as a single feature, but through combinations that make it possible. However, as long as those combinations are consistently used, then they can be considered a grammatical feature. Kind of like saying that past tense does not exist in ASL because the same root sign is used for present and past, and a combination of signs must be used to create past tense.
 
Bottesini said:
Janzen, Terry.
O'Dea, Barbara.
Shaffer, Barbara.
The Construal of Events: Passives in American Sign Language
Sign Language Studies - Volume 1, Number 3, Spring 2001, pp. 281-310

Gallaudet University Press

The possibility of a passive construction existing in ASL has been alluded to from time to time in the literature on ASL grammar, but discussion is infrequent, and the usual conclusion is that a passive does not, in fact, exist. We contend, however, that a particular configuration of ASL grammatical features surrounding an otherwise transitive verb qualifies as a fully passive construction, and that these passives are more frequent in ASL discourse than may have been realized. This discussion continues and expands upon an earlier proposal in which we identify grammatical and functional characteristics of passive constructions in ASL discourse
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That's one opinion. Of course there are other opinions, which is why it's a subject of some controversy.
 
Bottesini said:
Janzen, Terry.
O'Dea, Barbara.
Shaffer, Barbara.
The Construal of Events: Passives in American Sign Language
Sign Language Studies - Volume 1, Number 3, Spring 2001, pp. 281-310

Gallaudet University Press

The possibility of a passive construction existing in ASL has been alluded to from time to time in the literature on ASL grammar, but discussion is infrequent, and the usual conclusion is that a passive does not, in fact, exist. We contend, however, that a particular configuration of ASL grammatical features surrounding an otherwise transitive verb qualifies as a fully passive construction, and that these passives are more frequent in ASL discourse than may have been realized. This discussion continues and expands upon an earlier proposal in which we identify grammatical and functional characteristics of passive constructions in ASL discourse
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Agreed, Bott. Even Stokoe many years ago identified passive voice in ASL structure. Many linguists since then have, as well.
 
jillio said:
If it can be demonstrated, then it exists grammatically.
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Not necessarily. Like the example I gave, "The house was built 20-years ago." It's my understanding that ASL can demonstrate passive voice after a fashion but only with an active voice construct by inventing a subject, i.e. "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH" or probably more properly "HOUSE (topic) 20 YEARS PAST MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH".

I admit I'm still pretty much a newbie when it comes to ASL, but I'm curious how that sentence could be signed in true passive voice with an object but no subject. Or if that example is not suitable then perhaps you could provide another? I'm always open to learning something new. :)
 
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Mountain Man said:
Not necessarily. Like the example I gave, "The house was built 20-years ago." It's my understanding that ASL can demonstrate passive voice after a fashion but only with an active voice construct by inventing a subject, i.e. "20 YEARS PAST HOUSE MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH" or probably more properly "HOUSE (topic) 20 YEARS PAST MAN ix-he BUILD FINISH".

I admit I'm still pretty much a newbie when it comes to ASL, but I'm curious how that sentence could be signed in true passive voice with an object but no subject. Or if that example is not suitable then perhaps you could provide another? I'm always open to learning something new. :)
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Through the use of directionality with verbs. It is done all the time. The English sentence, "She follows him." would be signed simply "She follow" using directionality to indicate the "him". The English sentence "He saw it." can signed simply using the sign for "see" with directionality and pointing to indicate the "he".

The informal use of any language differs from the formal use. The grammatical "rules" that you read in a book are rarely applied in that specific way in informal conversation. That is why, if one wants to become truly fluent in ASL, one needs to interact with people who use the language. Many people learn a foreign language, and consider themselves to be fluent because they have learned grammatical rules and vocab. But when they visit a country that actually uses the language, discover that they cannot communicate with a single soul. Same with ASL.
 
jillio said:
Through the use of directionality with verbs. It is done all the time. The English sentence, "She follows him." would be signed simply "She follow" using directionality to indicate the "him". The English sentence "He saw it." can signed simply using the sign for "see" with directionality and pointing to indicate the "he".
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But that's not really passive voice because the subjects and objects are implied, and in practical use they will have been indexed previously in the conversation.

jillio said:
The informal use of any language differs from the formal use. The grammatical "rules" that you read in a book are rarely applied in that specific way in informal conversation. That is why, if one wants to become truly fluent in ASL, one needs to interact with people who use the language. Many people learn a foreign language, and consider themselves to be fluent because they have learned grammatical rules and vocab. But when they visit a country that actually uses the language, discover that they cannot communicate with a single soul. Same with ASL.
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I agree. It's the difference between learning a language and acquiring it.
 
Mountain Man said:
But that's not really passive voice because the subjects and objects are implied, and in practical use they will have been indexed previously in the conversation.
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So basically you are telling us that ASL and English are not identical? :hmm:
 
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