Flip and Exodus 4

I do know the religion section is banned ...

The link to the Jewish paper - they're not dicussion Sign Language and a mode of speech they're discussing the rather complicated linguistic issue of "to be a sign to" - we see difficulty again in Abram and Sarai ... but I digress ... it has nothing to do with visual language.

The link to the BBC article makes me question whether totally crappy, non-intellectual rambling disguised as theology aren't one of the greatest stumbling blocks for those investigating, or considering returning to their given faith. The writer of the article clearly needs to bother picking up a Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible , or Koran ... and actually reading it prior to speculating on the topic. YIKES !!!
 
Anij said:
I do know the religion section is banned ...

The link to the Jewish paper - they're not dicussion Sign Language and a mode of speech they're discussing the rather complicated linguistic issue of "to be a sign to" - we see difficulty again in Abram and Sarai ... but I digress ... it has nothing to do with visual language.

The link to the BBC article makes me question whether totally crappy, non-intellectual rambling disguised as theology aren't one of the greatest stumbling blocks for those investigating, or considering returning to their given faith. The writer of the article clearly needs to bother picking up a Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible , or Koran ... and actually reading it prior to speculating on the topic. YIKES !!!
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Ok, too bad religion is banned. We are diccussin the disability of Moses, and how the Abrahamic God handles that, so not sure if we are diccusing disability in western history or religion. But let's try to keep it in the history perspective, avoiding the religious part?

That guy did not make up all this by himself. There are some articles done on this earlier, I don't have access to them, but for those who have:

1999, Speech disorders in Biblical times – Moses: “a heavy mouth and a heavy tongue,” HaRefuah, 136:908-910

1992, The speech defect of Moses, J. Royal Soc. Med., 85:632-633.

2003, Moses: Did he inherit spondylarthritis of the pharaohs? Arthrit. Rheumat., 49:142-148

The last one can explain why Moses used a staff.

The link I provided to the jew, you are right it's not about sign language, but the use of the word "sign" in hebrew and the translation to english. I wanted to show some people here that it's perhaps not right that Moses was facilicated with signs to prove God was with him. If the signs are the three transformations that God shows Moses, it leaves us with the question, what did God then mean when he said:"And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs."?

Perhaps I am wrong, but I see no clear evidences of Moses not beeing disabled by reading the Bible. I am not trying to degreade the holyness of the Bible here, but the Bible is a major source of culture and history in the western society. The gospels about Jesus in the new testament is more accurate than many non-belivers think, thanks to new findings and knowledge about how the Bible was put togheter.
 
Raykat said:
Neither did I but then I never go into the religion forum. Your right about off topic, but then my spoken conversations rarely stay on one topic so go figure.

By the way, what happened to R2D2, she started this thread then scarpered, probably just reading our inane comments and giggling to herself :giggle:
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:ty: It probably got too off topic to follow for R2D2.
 
flip said:
Ok, too bad religion is banned. We are diccussin the disability of Moses, and how the Abrahamic God handles that, so not sure if we are diccusing disability in western history or religion. But let's try to keep it in the history perspective, avoiding the religious part?

That guy did not make up all this by himself. There are some articles done on this earlier, I don't have access to them, but for those who have:

1999, Speech disorders in Biblical times – Moses: “a heavy mouth and a heavy tongue,” HaRefuah, 136:908-910

1992, The speech defect of Moses, J. Royal Soc. Med., 85:632-633.2003, Moses: Did he inherit spondylarthritis of the pharaohs? Arthrit. Rheumat., 49:142-148

The last one can explain why Moses used a staff.

The link I provided to the jew, you are right it's not about sign language, but the use of the word "sign" in hebrew and the translation to english. I wanted to show some people here that it's perhaps not right that Moses was facilicated with signs to prove God was with him. If the signs are the three transformations that God shows Moses, it leaves us with the question, what did God then mean when he said:"And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs."?

Perhaps I am wrong, but I see no clear evidences of Moses not beeing disabled by reading the Bible. I am not trying to degreade the holyness of the Bible here, but the Bible is a major source of culture and history in the western society. The gospels about Jesus in the new testament is more accurate than many non-belivers think, thanks to new findings and knowledge about how the Bible was put togheter.
Click to expand...

The bold bit above only refers to speech defects, which can be present without deafness. So until I read in Bible that Moses was in fact deaf I will continue to believe he had speech problems alone.

How would Moses inherit anything from the Pharaohs? arithitis or such, he was no blood relation to them.
 
Boult said:
R2D2, I don't mean to offend or upset you....

what does this thread have to do with HA/CI section? it mainly talk about exodus and disability. this thread could have been created in other section of AD but as per Alex's decree that any form of debate about religion are not allowed on AD since the religion section was locked up.
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Oops sorry. I did not know that religion had been banned on AD and I did wonder after I had created the thread whether it was the right place to place it. Flip suggested we started a new thread in a CI discussion and so it seemed the most natural place.

Should I report myself? :giggle:

Seriously, if mods want to lock it I have no problem with that. No one came to blows and we all exchanged info and thoughts. I might not agree with Flip, but I find him to be very polite.
 
Raykat said:
The bold bit above only refers to speech defects, which can be present without deafness. So until I read in Bible that Moses was in fact deaf I will continue to believe he had speech problems alone.

How would Moses inherit anything from the Pharaohs? arithitis or such, he was no blood relation to them.
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My point here is only that it's questionable to use the Bible to claim that disabilities are a bad thing according to God. It's also questionable to claim that God want people to be disabled, by reading both the New Testament and the Old Testament. This diccussion started with a poster claiming God is against CI, and other posters claiming that Jesus is all for CI, in case some here forgot!

I don't know why the article use the word "inherit". Moses was second generation immigrant in Egypt, and perhaps the Pharaos is to blame for an infection, making doctors use the sensationsal words "inherit". Too bad this article not is available for us mere mortals.
 
R2D2 said:
Oops sorry. I did not know that religion had been banned on AD and I did wonder after I had created the thread whether it was the right place to place it. Flip suggested we started a new thread in a CI discussion and so it seemed the most natural place.

Should I report myself? :giggle:

Seriously, if mods want to lock it I have no problem with that. No one came to blows and we all exchanged info and thoughts. I might not agree with Flip, but I find him to be very polite.
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No prob, let's lock this thread, so I get the last word.:smoking:
 
Ok, too bad religion is banned. We are discussing the disability of Moses, and how the Abrahamic God handles that, so not sure if we are discussing disability in western history or religion. But let's try to keep it in the history perspective, avoiding the religious part?
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Other than being "slow of speech" - implying either something physical, or that he has difficulty expressing himself eloquently in public stressful situations ...
There's absolutely nothing to imply that Moses was otherwise disabled.
The authors statement (implied or explicit) that Moses was put at 3months of age in the basket in the Nile because he was disabled, and that this was "Common" shows a distinct lack of understanding the context of that narrative.

That Moses Carried a Staff - is common, and (concretely) means nothing other than he was a traveller.


Interesting conversation ... I think ? ~ anyways ... I have to get back to writing my Theology papers...
 
Raykat said:
Moses was a shepherd before leading Israel out of Egypt, every shepherd carried a rod, useful for clambering over rough ground and rocks I woudl think.

I have just read Ex 14.21 Moses strecthed out his hand and the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind, The Israelites went thru with a wall of water on their left and a wall or water on their right
Verse 26, The Lord said to Moses, stretch out your hand, and the water went back to its place (my words for brevity)

nothing here about the seas drying up, simply the waters parting then returning to drown the egyptians.

I think every scholar of the Bible understands "signs" to be physical signs of Gods power, burning bushes, parting seas, making the blind to see again and the lame to walk. If it meant sign language there would be reference to it as communication.

As for Moses being deaf, the way I read Ex 14 is that he was not a fluent public speaker, there is only reference to speech. nothing about hearing, which I am sure woudl be mentioned if that was the case.
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That is what I have always assumed. It's quite possible he had a stutter or something.
 
Anij said:
Other than being "slow of speech" - implying either something physical, or that he has difficulty expressing himself eloquently in public stressful situations ...
There's absolutely nothing to imply that Moses was otherwise disabled.
The authors statement (implied or explicit) that Moses was put at 3months of age in the basket in the Nile because he was disabled, and that this was "Common" shows a distinct lack of understanding the context of that narrative.

That Moses Carried a Staff - is common, and (concretely) means nothing other than he was a traveller.


Interesting conversation ... I think ? ~ anyways ... I have to get back to writing my Theology papers...
Click to expand...

I agree there are few other signs of disability, and we can only speculate on the speech disorder.

It's brave by you to claim that the staff means nothing other than he was a traveller. Artifacts in stories often have symbolic purposes, even in the Bible.

What really happened on the mountains of sinai and the whole person Moses, is no "of course" to many people, like it perhaps is to you by reading the english version of the bible only?

I assume you aren't interested to know that the ten commandments Moses got have a striking similarity to a list in an older egyptian text, known as Book of the Dead, and this leaves us with new possibilities when interpreting the book of Moses?
 
I did some time reading through the religious posts here on AD, and now understand why that subforum is locked. Perhaps we better stop this thread as well, and find other religious forums if we want to further explore our knowledge of the Bible?
 
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