Enough is Enough...

[deafdyke]

rick, I do understand that....it's part of the full toolbox approach.It does seem like the debate is over which language should be a deaf kid's first language.
And it is true that some Deaf schools or programs may not be able to provide really good speech therapists or enough speech therapy. I really do think that the oral programs/schools and Deaf Schools need to team up and share their resources.
Oral schools and programs really should stop demonizing ASL or seeing it as a "crutch", but rather as a tool that could HELP their kids.
Granted they're a lot more openminded about suggesting that kids may need ASL sooner rather then later. Which is good..but they're still " Oh it's a last resort"
I think too maybe that now that deaf kids may not need very intense oral instruction (ie like when your daughter and I were young and even just five years ago, enrollement in the higher grades of CID and Clarke and St. Joseph's and DePaul, were BOOMING. The dorms were overflowing as a matter of fact! There were 45 borders at Clarke! ) that maybe they could have the option of learning ASL as a second language earlier.
Maybe then, Deaf Schools and programs could offer a true bilingal option......more like for hoh kids.....it would have ASL programming but ALSO speech therapy.

As far as the "full toolbox" approach, it sounds good in theory and I would never advise parents to outright disregard a method especially for a young child but there does come a point in time wherein you have to make choices for your child's education. You simply cannot utilize every single approach all the time and the reality is that if you pay attention to your child, if you monitor their growth and progress and if you keep involved in their development, then it will help you to elect the right approach or approaches for your child.

Oh very true. But it does seem like a lot of the parents who chose oral only seem to think that their kid will automaticly get the same education that a hearing kid will if they are mainstreamed. That really seems to be what is driving oral only....the hope that they'll get an on par (comparable to hearing kids) education. That can and does happen. But so often, kids are given minimal accomondations or lumped in with the resource room (LD and behavorial disabilties mostly) kids, and they doggie paddle, without even the benifit of a formal dhh program. (which can be amazing for hoh kids) I mean it is a fact that oral kids do OK until around 4th or 5th grade...not to mention that its beyond common for oral only kids to have severe social emotional issues.

 

[Hohtopics]

What makes me wonder even more is... when a kid gets picked on, do they have different reactions based on who they are?

Bully: "You're stupid."

"Normal" white kid: "This guy is really mean!"

Black kid: "He's doing this because I'm black."

Gay kid: "He's doing this because I'm gay."

Deaf kid: "He's doing this because I'm deaf."

And so on.

I even see it in adults. Sometimes people say "I know he hates me because I'm black.". I am sure sometimes (or maybe even most of the time) it is true... but I am also sure that sometimes it is not.

Good point. In another word, some people perceive themselves as the "victim".

 

[flip]

We can all argue till we're blue in the face whether the ability to hear and to speak is of value, or provides benefits to a person but the reality is that it ultimately is a parental decision that parents have the right to make on behalf of their children. You may not like that but it always has, always is and always will be the right of parents to make decisions on behalf of their children.

Wish thinking from a hardcore oralist.

A lot of things that were allowed before is not now. Modern history have restricted parental rights, while the childrens rights have increased. This is expected to continue.

If there were no cases of abuse and tragedies, no one would have to chant "parental choice" while closing the eyes and putting the fingers in the ears. Though I admire your effort to become deaf blind.

 

[rick48]

Wish thinking from a hardcore oralist.

A lot of things that were allowed before is not now. Modern history have restricted parental rights, while the childrens rights have increased. This is expected to continue.

If there were no cases of abuse and tragedies, no one would have to chant "parental choice" while closing the eyes and putting the fingers in the ears. Though I admire your effort to become deaf blind.

It is only those few who trot out the old child abuse chants every time there is a mention of parental rights who have long closed their mind to reality and seek to continue an argument that has long been decided. Only the few hardcore Deaf cultists like yourself and another on this forum remain who would link the parental cochlear implant decision to child abuse or call the surgery torture.

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community and that the number of parents choosing cochlear implants for their children is ever increasing. Time and the kids with cochlear implants will continue to prove how out of touch with reality you are, have been and will continue to be.

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!

Rick

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

rick, I do understand that....it's part of the full toolbox approach.It does seem like the debate is over which language should be a deaf kid's first language.
And it is true that some Deaf schools or programs may not be able to provide really good speech therapists or enough speech therapy. I really do think that the oral programs/schools and Deaf Schools need to team up and share their resources.
Oral schools and programs really should stop demonizing ASL or seeing it as a "crutch", but rather as a tool that could HELP their kids.
Granted they're a lot more openminded about suggesting that kids may need ASL sooner rather then later. Which is good..but they're still " Oh it's a last resort"
I think too maybe that now that deaf kids may not need very intense oral instruction (ie like when your daughter and I were young and even just five years ago, enrollement in the higher grades of CID and Clarke and St. Joseph's and DePaul, were BOOMING. The dorms were overflowing as a matter of fact! There were 45 borders at Clarke! ) that maybe they could have the option of learning ASL as a second language earlier.
Maybe then, Deaf Schools and programs could offer a true bilingal option......more like for hoh kids.....it would have ASL programming but ALSO speech therapy.

As far as the "full toolbox" approach, it sounds good in theory and I would never advise parents to outright disregard a method especially for a young child but there does come a point in time wherein you have to make choices for your child's education. You simply cannot utilize every single approach all the time and the reality is that if you pay attention to your child, if you monitor their growth and progress and if you keep involved in their development, then it will help you to elect the right approach or approaches for your child.

Oh very true. But it does seem like a lot of the parents who chose oral only seem to think that their kid will automaticly get the same education that a hearing kid will if they are mainstreamed. That really seems to be what is driving oral only....the hope that they'll get an on par (comparable to hearing kids) education. That can and does happen. But so often, kids are given minimal accomondations or lumped in with the resource room (LD and behavorial disabilties mostly) kids, and they doggie paddle, without even the benifit of a formal dhh program. (which can be amazing for hoh kids) I mean it is a fact that oral kids do OK until around 4th or 5th grade...not to mention that its beyond common for oral only kids to have severe social emotional issues.

you never answer this question dd, so i'll ask again. HOW does a child successfully learn fluent spoken language (not "oral skills" but the ability to understand open set conversational spoken language) if they aren't exposed to it or use it? If the goal is have ASL as their mode of communication at school and at home (which IS the goal of bi bi education) how do they learn spoken english?

 

[jenniifer]

You do indeed have the right and your response was justified and warranted. I know several adoptive parents and no one pretends their child was not adopted, in fact, quite the opposite: they are very open and upfront about it with their children. I think it is wonderful that these families are so open about it.

As far as the "grief" issue, yes I know parents who let it take over their lives instead of moving on to help their kids. Also know many who accepted their child's newly discovered deafness as a part of who their child is and moved on. I think this whole "grief" issue is exaggerated and used as yet another excuse to justify opposition to children getting cochlear implants.

The image of the grief stricken parent as the mindless zombie unable to resist the false promises of doctors and audiologists rushing to get their poor deaf children implanted may work in some small minded pockets of the Deaf community but it is so far from reality and not one embraced by the larger deaf community. That Deaf parents themselves are seeking the cochlear implant for their own children in ever increasing numbers shatters that myth.

Parents considering implants for their kids, and I have known hundreds over the last quarter of a century, are out there seeking advice, getting information and making decisions for their child after considerable time effort and deliberation. They are not paralyzed by "grief" but doing what they are supposed to be doing: acting as parents for their children.

Rick

For the record I never said that adoptive parents "pretend" their children are not adopted in the sense that they are confused about or deny the reality of where their kids came from. I said that they are not immune to the same ideals of natural parents, and that getting a newborn as opposed to an older child fits better into some adoptive parents wish that the child be theirs and ONLY theirs, and that it is common for them to be in denial that the child IS part of another family as well. They know it is true, but choose to go along as if it doesn't matter, sort of the nurture wins out over nature type of attitude. These same types of parents several decades ago often never even told their children they were adopted...but today, that is pretty much unheard of, because people are smart enough to realize now that it is just wrong to do such a thing to a kid.. and, things have changed considerably in the adoption business/world. It would be very difficult today to hide it.

If someone takes offense to what I said, or feels that they need to defend adoptive parents everywhere, that is fine. I am all for different opinions, it is what makes life, and forums where we discuss these things, interesting. Things would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything. I am not into long drawn out arguments, and this is all I am going to say about this. The member who didn't like what I said is entitled to her say as well, and I respect that, even if she thinks I am not entitled to mine.

 

[flip]

It is only those few who trot out the old child abuse chants every time there is a mention of parental rights who have long closed their mind to reality and seek to continue an argument that has long been decided. Only the few hardcore Deaf cultists like yourself and another on this forum remain who would link the parental cochlear implant decision to child abuse or call the surgery torture.

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community and that the number of parents choosing cochlear implants for their children is ever increasing. Time and the kids with cochlear implants will continue to prove how out of touch with reality you are, have been and will continue to be.

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!

Rick

Oh, yes, I'm effecting you a as a parent, else you wouldn't write emotional posts like this. Man, you need some self insight. Ok.. outta here, before I'm accused for effecting you so much that you yet again enter a state of uncontrolled rage and this thread is locked. Think positive!

 

[posts from hell]

It is only those few who trot out the old child abuse chants every time there is a mention of parental rights who have long closed their mind to reality and seek to continue an argument that has long been decided. Only the few hardcore Deaf cultists like yourself and another on this forum remain who would link the parental cochlear implant decision to child abuse or call the surgery torture.

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community and that the number of parents choosing cochlear implants for their children is ever increasing. Time and the kids with cochlear implants will continue to prove how out of touch with reality you are, have been and will continue to be.

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!

Rick

lol, and you took the time to reply like this.

BTW: Post reported.
Four years of your views is enough, truly.

 

[KristinaB]

This is getting too deep for me.

 

[Rampratt]

Well, I grew up with a litte spending on my old HAs during my childhood and teenhood, yet I turned out okay. I don't believe in soundless have no meaning or signing/deafness is less important and unsafety than speaking/hearing. So I don't see how the deafness is not safety or less meaning for our lives when there are more successful non-HA/CI Deaf people somewhere in USA and other countries... you know, there are various ways to communication between hearing and the deaf...

OK, let me ask you. What is unsafety about signing and deafness? You got me wonder...



First I'm not trying to imply that by being deaf you can not be successful. I am saying it is a handicap. A person that is deaf has to relay on his/her eyesight much more than a hearing person. Accidents among hearing happen way too often and the excuse given is that I did not hear the siren, train or what ever. Hearing people sometimes relay to often on their ears and don't pay attention as they/we should. Those of us that drive have to be a bit more alert as we don't always have the ability to hear warning sighs. The ambulance or police car siren from the rear comes to mind, or upon coming to an intersection and not being able to hear the siren coming from around the corner. In my case and state I have to have mirrors on both sides of the vehicle or I'm not legal to drive. That is in addition to inside mirror. Most vehicles come that way nowadays but they did not used to even have outside mirrors not to many years ago.
If I've stepped on some toes, I apologize. I'm not trying to belittle anyone but I am trying to state things that I have observed in the last 70+ years and believe to be true. Both as hearing and deaf as I am late deaf. In fact I guess I'm not deaf as I have a CI and can hear reasonably well with that. Due to get another one on other side shortly.

 

[jillio]

Wish thinking from a hardcore oralist.

A lot of things that were allowed before is not now. Modern history have restricted parental rights, while the childrens rights have increased. This is expected to continue.

If there were no cases of abuse and tragedies, no one would have to chant "parental choice" while closing the eyes and putting the fingers in the ears. Though I admire your effort to become deaf blind.

I believe that the referenced poster suffers from a unique form of environmentally caused deafness. It is the result of having one's head up one's azz for extended periods of time.:P

 

[jillio]

It is only those few who trot out the old child abuse chants every time there is a mention of parental rights who have long closed their mind to reality and seek to continue an argument that has long been decided. Only the few hardcore Deaf cultists like yourself and another on this forum remain who would link the parental cochlear implant decision to child abuse or call the surgery torture.

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community and that the number of parents choosing cochlear implants for their children is ever increasing. Time and the kids with cochlear implants will continue to prove how out of touch with reality you are, have been and will continue to be.

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!
Rick

Obviously it has an effect on you since you keep coming back to hear it over and over again.

 

[Beowulf]

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!

Rick

Those are fighting words, bub.

 

[deafdyke]

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community

rick48 were you aware that back in the day Deaf people were anti HA? CIs are pretty much accepted, and have been for quite awhile! Deaf people are realizing that they'll have as much impact on cultural Deafness as hearing aids did.
The ONLY impact that CIs have had is to lessen the number of kids who are voice off Sign There are still plenty of CI kids in TC programs and Schools for the Deaf you know (and not just Clarke, Sunshine Cottage, CID, DePaul etc)

you never answer this question dd, so i'll ask again. HOW does a child successfully learn fluent spoken language (not "oral skills" but the ability to understand open set conversational spoken language) if they aren't exposed to it or use it? If the goal is have ASL as their mode of communication at school and at home (which IS the goal of bi bi education) how do they learn spoken english?

That's easy. Offer an early childhood/early intervention program (meaning up to 2nd grade) where half the day is spent with spoken language, and the other half with signing. They have an early intervention preschool like that at Govenor Baxter.
Plus, as long as kids get quality consistant speech instruction, they will take what they learned in class and apply it in real life. And I know you had a crappy experiance with speech at your Deaf School, but PLEASE stop extrapolarating that to ALL Deaf Schools!
Check out this school as a matter of fact! It is the NY State School for the Deaf and serves.....*gasp* deaf kids who are good HA/CI users!!!!! Kids have auditory oral classes every single day......About Us : NYSSD : Special Education : P-12 : NYSED
There is more then what your state school offers!

 

[rebeccalj]

It is only those few who trot out the old child abuse chants every time there is a mention of parental rights who have long closed their mind to reality and seek to continue an argument that has long been decided. Only the few hardcore Deaf cultists like yourself and another on this forum remain who would link the parental cochlear implant decision to child abuse or call the surgery torture.

But it is good to know that you and your friend are an ever dwindling minority even within the Deaf community and that the number of parents choosing cochlear implants for their children is ever increasing. Time and the kids with cochlear implants will continue to prove how out of touch with reality you are, have been and will continue to be.

Nothing you say or will write has had an effect on parents and that is the best news there is!

Rick

This is where you are wrong. You see, nothing *you* say or will write will have an effect on parents and this is very good news indeed.

 

[ryancher]

Was the title of this thread not clear???

Enough is Enough!

 

[Calvin]

Mod note:

The title says it all...

I think this thread needs a break... so this thread is closed.