"English" signs? I'm confused.

[Bebonang]

Deaf people locally don't always sign the same. For example, some of them came from other states.

In the past, I used to try to sign in different states. I got mixed up with different signs from different states (Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois) than I used in Minnesota (Ameslan).

The National Theater for the Deaf got the idea that when they traveled cross country and learned that the Deaf Community could not understand what the plays was about (I could not understand what they were signing in the plays about). So the hearing actor who was very fluent in signing and invented the American Sign Language with the help from his Deaf actors so that every one can understand the signs better from coast to coast including Canada and some other countries. So that is how ASL were born.

 

[Reba]

In the past, I used to try to sign in different states. I got mixed up with different signs from different states (Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois) than I used in Minnesota (Ameslan).

The National Theater for the Deaf got the idea that when they traveled cross country and learned that the Deaf Community could not understand what the plays was about (I could not understand what they were signing in the plays about). So the hearing actor who was very fluent in signing and invented the American Sign Language with the help from his Deaf actors so that every one can understand the signs better from coast to coast including Canada and some other countries. So that is how ASL were born.

I'm a little confused.

I watched the NTD perform, and I met several members of the cast at the home of my sign language teacher (a CODA). It was around 1968. We were already using ASL at that time (although it wasn't abbreviated or called "ASL" at that time). It was Lou Fant, a CODA, interpreter, teacher, and actor, who coined the phrase AMESLAN as a contraction for American Sign Language. Later, it was abbreviated further to ASL. It was his book that we used for a text in our signing class.

I'm not doubting that the NTD made revisions in their performances after their national tour. (Their theater and headquarters were in my hometown, Waterford, at that time.) However, they didn't "invent" American Sign Language.

 

[Bebonang]

I'm a little confused.

I watched the NTD perform, and I met several members of the cast at the home of my sign language teacher (a CODA). It was around 1968. We were already using ASL at that time (although it wasn't abbreviated or called "ASL" at that time). It was Lou Fant, a CODA, interpreter, teacher, and actor, who coined the phrase AMESLAN as a contraction for American Sign Language. Later, it was abbreviated further to ASL. It was his book that we used for a text in our signing class.

I'm not doubting that the NTD made revisions in their performances after their national tour. (Their theater and headquarters were in my hometown, Waterford, at that time.) However, they didn't "invent" American Sign Language.

Reba, that is exactly correct what you are saying in the first paragraph. I had trouble remembering Lou Fant. It was a long time ago. I was there in Minneapolis, Minnesota around that year time before or after 1968. I watched the performance. Beautiful but hard to understand some of the signs that are different.

On the second paragraph, do you have any idea who invented ASL beside Ameslan? I still thought Lou Fant was the one who taught us how to sign ASL instead of Ameslan. I guess I was wrong.

 

[tuatara]

On the second paragraph, do you have any idea who invented ASL beside Ameslan? I still thought Lou Fant was the one who taught us how to sign ASL instead of Ameslan.

Ameslan is just an earlier label for American Sign Language (ASL). They used the first letters from each word:

American: Ame. Sign: s. Language: lan. Put them together: Ame + s + lan = Ameslan.

Eventually, people stopped using the name Ameslan and started saying ASL or just American Sign Language. ASL isn't a different language from Ameslan.

If it seems different, maybe this is because languages change/evolve, so earlier usage of American Sign Language (while people called it ameslan) might have differences you notice from more current use of American Sign Language (now being called ASL). But the differences are just the natural evolution of one language. ASL and Ameslan are just the new and older names for that one language.

 

[tuatara]

Bebonang, I want to make sure you know I'm just trying to explain my understanding of the subject. I know one time before you thought I was insulting, but I am not trying to insult you or anyone. This is just what I think I understand.

That idea of languages changing over time makes sense to me. I've read about it, but more personally, I notice it. I volunteer with Deaf teenagers, and I have some Deaf friends in their 20's/30's, some in their 40's/50's/60's, and some in their 70's/80's/90's I really notice different ways of signing in those four groups. Every time I found myself in a new environment with people of a different age group, I had to get used to their way of signing, and ask alot of questions at first. I still struggle to understand the teenagers sometimes. They have to slow down for me, or repeat, but they're very nice about it

 

[CoffeeFiend]

Hi CoffeeFiend,

It can seem strange at first, but some initialized signs have been accepted into ASL and others haven't. You really have to learn them as you go along. You sign "team" with a t, but (at least in certain environments around here) signing "try" with a t will get you sternly corrected. I don't even mean in a class.

It can also seem confusing that they want you to fingerspell but not do things they label as English. It can seem like spelling is *more* English-y. But I think the idea is that ASL is a real language that exists, with signs that are part of it and signs that aren't. If you get to a word that doesn't have an ASL sign, you can try to describe the thing, act it out, or maybe fingerspell, and you're sort of acknowledging that ASL doesn't have a sign for that. But if you use a sign from another system (like English based signing) then a boundary starts to blur, and it's a boundary that's very important to some.

So, basically, learning ASL is like walking through a minefield? Step on a mine, use the wrong sign and get blown up at? :P

I see what you’re saying though.

IMO:

In a classroom situation where you're being graded/tested, use whatever sign the instructor shows you.

In the real world, use the signs that are common within your local community.

If you sign with people outside your community, by on-line video, be flexible.

Makes sense. Confusing, but it makes sense.

 

[tuatara]

So, basically, learning ASL is like walking through a minefield? Step on a mine, use the wrong sign and get blown up at? :P

Depends on who you hang out with:0

 

[dogmom]

I've always had great experiences with people - people have been patient.
Biggest thing I found was - leave any oral/English preconceptions "at the door".
Try to be open to thinking about things in a different way than maybe you did before.

For me, I'm used to it cuz I have learning disability and speech differences and have always done things differently. I also tend to be very holistic, conceptual and visual thinker.

Example - yesterday a co-worker helped with a tire that was low on air. It was dark and we were both going to go home from work. He was kind to help me.
I asked him about it and described the tire in question as "smushy" because when I saw what came into my head right away was a picture of a squishy bubble and the sign ORANGE <squishy oranges>

 

[CrazyPaul]

So, basically, learning ASL is like walking through a minefield? Step on a mine, use the wrong sign and get blown up at? :P

No, no, don't worry, you will be fine really.

 

[atmannel]

It depends on what and where you are signing there is a difference between ASL and SEE (Signed Exact English) signs for example. My boyfriend signs juice differently from our friend's husband who uses SEE.

 

[atmannel]

Just ask other Deaf people around you and it also depends on what decade your teacher is from my old "ASL" was a HUGE SEE user.

 

[SBirn]

Complicated information for a complicated question

English sign and ASL sign is different-- English signs have more signs, ASL has fewer. Hope that helps.

For example, one might say, " I finished my homework", while in ASL it's signed as "homework finished".

True but I want to take this further.
1. American Sign Language = different grammatical structure and many different signs from (see 2.). I have an ASL book and there are "qualifiers" for some of the words (as in the word begins with the English letter for that word). BUT I've seen other ASL books where this is not the case.
2. Signing Exact English (SEE), which is tediously English accurate to signing articles (a, the, etc.) and adding beginnings and endings (ing, ed, etc.) as they exist in English and uses qualifiers.
-- SEE tends to use qualifiers for the words. So, future in SEE begins with
an "f" and in ASL it is just an open hand. Both movements are the
same. I'm sure there are many other examples that I've forgotten.
I began using the combo through semi-novices in the 1980s. One guy
was no novice. He worked at IBM and had gone through polio. He
wrote a book on Computer Signs.
3. Pigeon (and correct my spelling if I got that wrong) sign. This is what I've evolved to using. It is a combination of ASL (signs, not structure) and SEE ... sometimes I use a qualifier and sometimes I don't. It shortcuts the tedium of actual English structure.

My two classes in sign language in the last couple of years used both pigeon and ASL structure. We chose what we wanted to learn. We had a focus and were taught both.

Last thing to confuse the issue. When I married, a deaf teacher from the Freemont School for the Deaf in CA, taught me, "The Wedding Song," which I signed at my wedding in memory of a woman who got me into signing and it had nothing to do with my inability to hear well. The song was a lovely combo of ASL and pigeon. I didn't understand that then but it became obvious many years later.

Sorry, I grew up hearing. I am no expert. I am simply telling you what I've learned.

It is definitely confusing.

 

[CrazyPaul]

True but I want to take this further.
1. American Sign Language = different grammatical structure and many different signs from (see 2.). I have an ASL book and there are "qualifiers" for some of the words (as in the word begins with the English letter for that word). BUT I've seen other ASL books where this is not the case.
2. Signing Exact English (SEE), which is tediously English accurate to signing articles (a, the, etc.) and adding beginnings and endings (ing, ed, etc.) as they exist in English and uses qualifiers.
-- SEE tends to use qualifiers for the words. So, future in SEE begins with
an "f" and in ASL it is just an open hand. Both movements are the
same. I'm sure there are many other examples that I've forgotten.
I began using the combo through semi-novices in the 1980s. One guy
was no novice. He worked at IBM and had gone through polio. He
wrote a book on Computer Signs.
3. Pigeon (and correct my spelling if I got that wrong) sign. This is what I've evolved to using. It is a combination of ASL (signs, not structure) and SEE ... sometimes I use a qualifier and sometimes I don't. It shortcuts the tedium of actual English structure.

My two classes in sign language in the last couple of years used both pigeon and ASL structure. We chose what we wanted to learn. We had a focus and were taught both.

Last thing to confuse the issue. When I married, a deaf teacher from the Freemont School for the Deaf in CA, taught me, "The Wedding Song," which I signed at my wedding in memory of a woman who got me into signing and it had nothing to do with my inability to hear well. The song was a lovely combo of ASL and pigeon. I didn't understand that then but it became obvious many years later.

Sorry, I grew up hearing. I am no expert. I am simply telling you what I've learned.

It is definitely confusing.

#3 is called PSE. Deaf people know the differences between those three methods. Anyway if this post of yours is to reply to the OP, that's good info, even though the OP may already know.

 

[SBirn]

Thanks, CP

#3 is called PSE. Deaf people know the differences between those three methods. Anyway if this post of yours is to reply to the OP, that's good info, even though the OP may already know.

lol 30 years later, I learn that first that which was called ASL and SEE became pigeon and I spelled that wrong for a while. Now it's PSE. Makes sense.

Yes, I went beyond what was asked. I figured it didn't hurt and I did integrate the confusion of the mixture of the same signs for ASL and SEE and different signs as well . Thanks for teaching me more.

-- Sheri

 

[Reba]

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

The pigeon is a bird.

Pidgin

 

[Bottesini]

Qualifiers? Do you mean classifiers?

 

[hoichi]

Ditch SEE.

 

[Reba]

True but I want to take this further.
1. American Sign Language = different grammatical structure and many different signs from (see 2.). I have an ASL book and there are "qualifiers" for some of the words (as in the word begins with the English letter for that word). BUT I've seen other ASL books where this is not the case.

What book is that, please?

...I began using the combo through semi-novices in the 1980s. One guy was no novice. He worked at IBM and had gone through polio. He wrote a book on Computer Signs.

Which book?

BTW, just because someone has been signing a long time that person is not necessarily an expert in the language.

I'm not saying that's the case here but just a heads up that use and expertise are not the same thing.

3. Pigeon (and correct my spelling if I got that wrong) sign.

The word is pidgin.

This is what I've evolved to using. It is a combination of ASL (signs, not structure) and SEE ... sometimes I use a qualifier and sometimes I don't. It shortcuts the tedium of actual English structure.

You shouldn't use terminology that you're not familiar with that might misinform people who are seeking accurate help.

My two classes in sign language in the last couple of years used both pigeon and ASL structure. We chose what we wanted to learn. We had a focus and were taught both.

Sigh...

...Sorry, I grew up hearing. I am no expert. I am simply telling you what I've learned.

Understood. It would be a good idea to put that statement up front so no one will be misled.

 

[tuatara]

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

The pigeon is a bird.

Pidgin

 

[tuatara]

Qualifiers? Do you mean classifiers?

Seems like she's talking about initialization.