Do you think transpositional(high freq---> low freq) HAs will be popular soon?

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deafdude1

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I was thinking about that the other day. Faire Jour says im missing the high frequencies and most of the mids. That is true but what if transposition could "pull" those down to the lows? Many of us severely-profoundly deaf people have enough residual low frequency hearing to benefit. Many of us have 110db+ loss above 1000Hz including cochlear dead regions in the highs and even the mids.

With transposition algorithms, HA wearers can access the highs by having them shifted downwards. Can't hear the birds sing? Have the 3000Hz shifted down to 1500Hz, 1000Hz, 500Hz, whatever works best for your hearing. Most of us have little or no idea what high frequencies sound like so it won't sound strange to us. We will notice that we can hear more environmental sounds but those sounds will be familiar, they just will emit from unfamiliar sources.

Speech should improve. The high frequency S, F, TH, CH, SH, K sounds likewise can be shifted down till it's easily heard. Plurals will be able to be heard. In fact I can somewhat hear plurals as the S sound is not a puretone but has some lower frequency overtones. With transposition, ill hear the S much better and louder.

Transposition won't help the profoundly deaf who have 90db+ loss at any frequency, even the lows. There has to be enough residual hearing at 500Hz and below. It will help greatly if you have some residual hearing in the 750Hz to 2000Hz range which compose of the mid frequencies.

I will be having transposition programmed on my HAs along with more gains and other programs. I am prepared to give my brain time to get used to transposition and make it work for me. I will need sounds to be transposed down to a range between 500Hz and 1000Hz. I will also have a different program without transposition(my HAs can store up to 4 programs selectable with the push of a button)

I look forward to hearing all the keys on the grand piano in my parent's house. Currently, I can't hear the last dozen or so keys. Using vitrual piano on my computer, I can't hear the last two octives. I also look forward to hearing birds, crickets and even knowing when a hinge is squeeky so it can be oiled. We will no longer be missing out on sounds, they simply will sound different to us than to hearing people.
 
Do I think it will become popular? No.

1. I think that most people who use hearing aids are hearing people who have lost their hearing, so it will bother them.

2. I think that CI's are becoming more popular for people with profound losses. I think that that is where the market is headed.

I think there will always be hearing aid users, but I do not think that this particular feature will become a "huge hit".
 
transposition hearing aids have been out for quite some time like the AVR aid Impact for example. I have not seen transposition hearing aids become very popular.
 
deafdude1 said:
Transposition won't help the profoundly deaf who have 90db+ loss at any frequency, even the lows. There has to be enough residual hearing at 500Hz and below. It will help greatly if you have some residual hearing in the 750Hz to 2000Hz range which compose of the mid frequencies.
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Hmm...so that would be that transpositional aids don't help me...but they do. So once again we have some proof that your claims are wrong.
 
I am curious.... if you shift all the high frequencies sounds to the low freq area, doesn't this mean most sounds will sound similar since you're jamming a lot of sounds in a smaller freq range?
 
JennyB said:
Hmm...so that would be that transpositional aids don't help me...but they do. So once again we have some proof that your claims are wrong.
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Id be curious to know what frequencies are being transported into what frequencies. Also how low a frequency can be transported? Id like to learn more about this. Im also curious how much it helps you, perhaps I was wrong about this.
 
deafdude1 said:
Id be curious to know what frequencies are being transported into what frequencies. Also how low a frequency can be transported? Id like to learn more about this. Im also curious how much it helps you, perhaps I was wrong about this.
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SoundRecover is set as strong as it can be on my aids. I believe that means that everything above 1500Hz is brought down to a more audible range.

I get full benefit from it. One thing you need to remember, Deafdude, is that "benefit" is an individual definition. I get exactly what I want from it and I definitely hear much more than I do without it.
 
I was going to be nice earlier and not respond at all but seeing as Jenny and I are good friends I couldn't resist any longer.

Deafdude- I don't understand how much more that ppl can tell u that a ha is not one size fits all and nor is a hearing loss. If Jen takes off her hearing aids I can tell u that the convo is going to be a tad harder for her and I to communicate just cuz she won't hear as much, she mostly lip reads anyway so ha or not she still knows usually what I'm saying, but when she has them on she gets great benefits with them...and she is DEAF so for u to say that it doesn't help ppl with a 90dB pluss loss is stupid, plain and simple. Furthermore to add to ur question is there a market for transpositional aids, no. My audi told me that the transpositional is for ppl with profound losses, yes, but most of the time ppl won't bother with them as they take time to get used to as well as many adjustments and such and that's where there isn't ALOT of transpositional aids out there because not ALOT of ppl use them.

I think many ppl would "benefit" from you not saying certain things, but I think you would beg to differ ...cuz like Jenny B said benefit is an individual definition.
 
AliciaM said:
I was going to be nice earlier and not respond at all but seeing as Jenny and I are good friends I couldn't resist any longer.

Deafdude- I don't understand how much more that ppl can tell u that a ha is not one size fits all and nor is a hearing loss. If Jen takes off her hearing aids I can tell u that the convo is going to be a tad harder for her and I to communicate just cuz she won't hear as much, she mostly lip reads anyway so ha or not she still knows usually what I'm saying, but when she has them on she gets great benefits with them...and she is DEAF so for u to say that it doesn't help ppl with a 90dB pluss loss is stupid, plain and simple. Furthermore to add to ur question is there a market for transpositional aids, no. My audi told me that the transpositional is for ppl with profound losses, yes, but most of the time ppl won't bother with them as they take time to get used to as well as many adjustments and such and that's where there isn't ALOT of transpositional aids out there because not ALOT of ppl use them.

I think many ppl would "benefit" from you not saying certain things, but I think you would beg to differ ...cuz like Jenny B said benefit is an individual definition.
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Exactly! For one person enviromental sounds is benefit, for another it is speech awareness or aid with lipreading. But to some other people, that isn't good enough and they want speech understanding.
 
faire_jour said:
Exactly! For one person enviromental sounds is benefit, for another it is speech awareness or aid with lipreading. But to some other people, that isn't good enough and they want speech understanding.
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Right. I don't care about speech understanding. I honestly don't need it. I can speech read if I need to and I use ASL 90% of the time anyway. I get a lot of benefit in the sense that I can hear the fire truck that is about to run me over as it zooms through the intersection, or I can perceive voices and maybe (If I know the person really well) catch the odd word. Do I want to hear at 0db? No! I am totally happy where I am and I notice a huge difference with how much I can hear with and without the transposition. For me, that is benefit!
 
JennyB said:
SoundRecover is set as strong as it can be on my aids. I believe that means that everything above 1500Hz is brought down to a more audible range.

I get full benefit from it. One thing you need to remember, Deafdude, is that "benefit" is an individual definition. I get exactly what I want from it and I definitely hear much more than I do without it.
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Ive read around and it appears that your cutoff has been set to 1500Hz. What range are sounds above 1500Hz brought down to? I know that transposition does not affect the low frequencies. Id like transposition to bring sounds down to a range of 500Hz and 1000Hz. I wonder if the cutoff can be set somewhere between 1000Hz and 1500Hz as I quickly begin to have trouble hearing sounds above 1000Hz.

Yes I already know everyone is different and that not everyone can benefit from transposition. No arguments there, all I am saying is that everyone should try it for themselves, including me. Right now im learning all I can and will share this knowlege with my audie so he can set transposition the way I want it and the way that benefits me the best. It may be different for others.

Thanks for correcting me. I was wrong when I said profoundly deaf people couldn't benefit from transposition. It appears that some still can and you are a such example. That is exciting and shows that transposition has alot of potental for at least some people. To others replying, yes I am willing to take the time to get used to transposition and am willing to have it reprogrammed till it's right. I just need to learn more. It's also a new experience for my audie and I may be his first person who he's programming transposition on. See below for example image, makes sense.


060508_soundrecfig45.jpg
 
Frequency transposition (shifting) and frequency compression (what phonak uses in sound recover) are different technologies. Frequency compression encompasses a shift and reduction of bandwith, transposition is simply shifting and hence produces distortions. Most patients would not tolerate true transpositional hearing aids if they weren't fit with them early on as a child.

Phonak aids are not transpositional, they are standard hearing aids that have the ability to compress higher frequencies down to 1500Hz at a maximum ratio of 4:1.
 
SteveAUD said:
Frequency transposition (shifting) and frequency compression (what phonak uses in sound recover) are different technologies. Frequency compression encompasses a shift and reduction of bandwith, transposition is simply shifting and hence produces distortions. Most patients would not tolerate true transpositional hearing aids if they weren't fit with them early on as a child.

Phonak aids are not transpositional, they are standard hearing aids that have the ability to compress higher frequencies down to 1500Hz at a maximum ratio of 4:1.
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Thanks for the heads up. Can they compress to below 1500Hz? JennyB has no residual hearing above 1000Hz, yet she benefits from it. I don't have enough residual hearing above 1000Hz so I need the frequencies to be shifted to around 1000Hz.
 
deafdude1 said:
Thanks for the heads up. Can they compress to below 1500Hz? JennyB has no residual hearing above 1000Hz, yet she benefits from it. I don't have enough residual hearing above 1000Hz so I need the frequencies to be shifted to around 1000Hz.
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Because she has a different definition of benefit than you do.
 
See my above question:

Thanks for the heads up. Can they compress to below 1500Hz? JennyB has no residual hearing above 1000Hz, yet she benefits from it. I don't have enough residual hearing above 1000Hz so I need the frequencies to be shifted to around 1000Hz.
 
deafdude1 said:
See my above question:

Thanks for the heads up. Can they compress to below 1500Hz? JennyB has no residual hearing above 1000Hz, yet she benefits from it. I don't have enough residual hearing above 1000Hz so I need the frequencies to be shifted to around 1000Hz.
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No, not the Phonaks.
 
Perhaps Jenny can ask her audiologist how did they manage to get the Phonaks to transport to low frequencies so that Jenny could achieve benefit and hear the higher frequency sounds? I know her hearing is worse than mine and if she benefits, there's no reason I shouldn't benefit as well.

Id like to have the Phonak Naidas shift everything above 1000Hz down to 1000Hz and lower frequencies. 1500Hz is still too high for me(and Jenny)
 
deafdude1 said:
Perhaps Jenny can ask her audiologist how did they manage to get the Phonaks to transport to low frequencies so that Jenny could achieve benefit and hear the higher frequency sounds? I know her hearing is worse than mine and if she benefits, there's no reason I shouldn't benefit as well.

Id like to have the Phonak Naidas shift everything above 1000Hz down to 1000Hz and lower frequencies. 1500Hz is still too high for me(and Jenny)
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It is simple....she doesn't hear speech!
 
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