CI on 6 year old.

Hello Cole'smom,

I realize you and others like Rick45 and Cloggy are trying their best to raise your deaf children.

However, many deaf have had bad experiences with the oral only approach and hence why they're rather bitter. A lot if not all parents of CI kids tend to be oral only.

My personal concern is that the child gets good language skills and I'd recommend either ASL/BSL/etc or Cued Speech. My bias is for sign but I realize that not everyone wants to learn sign hence why I suggested Cued speech. As far as I'm concerned, these two will help with language skills via visual means. I'm well aware of the converstory regarding cued speech.

Although I have a sense of disquiet regarding the fact that Lotte is slightly delayed in her language skills, it could be due to the fact she's bilingual. I do not know how hard it is for deaf children to learn either Dutch or Norwegian. I'd think that Lotte's family would be on the alert and step in before she gets too far behind. I'd hope that neither of the languages is as hard to learn as English or Chinese.

I should note here that according to my kindergarten, first grade and second grade reports, I was also delayed in language skills but I started to catch up with my hearing peers around 3rd grade and I was able to surpass them by the time I was in the fifth grade.


While I have excellent oral skills, I also realize that oral skills do not come to others easily which is why I suggest either Sign or Cued speech. You could even use both and I think I know of someone who uses both ASL and cued speech.

I am sure that Jillio is just concerned for the welfare of other deaf even if she can come across as hostile.

People can and do change minds; I joined Alldeaf in order to debate against CIs but when I read the forums, I realized I had no good arguments against them so I joined 'em.
 
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“Just reread post # 50 that you refered to--no names mentioned. You assume I was talking about you and cloggy. Oops--I suppose you forgot that the world doesn't necessarily revolve around you.”


Well here is what I wrote:

She does not know me, my wife, who by the way I give all the credit for raising our daughter….


Here is what you wrote:

We've got one parent whose child is still so young ….and nother (sic) who tells us what a wonderful successs he has had parenting a deaf child, then in another thread says he gives all the credit to his wife


I can safely say that the world does not revolve around me. Can you truthfully say that you were not talking about me and/or Cloggy?

Who is that other ci parent who gives his wife all the credit for raising a wonderful daughter? I would like to meet him, we appear to have a lot in common!

Despite your little self-serving speech about having all the “approval” you need, attacking someone else’s child and the relationship between that parent and their child is as low as it gets.

I am done with you and the games you play.

Happy trolling!
Rick
 
deafskeptic said:
Hello Cole'smom,

I realize you and others like Rick45 and Cloggy are trying their best to raise your deaf children.
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deafskeptic,

Cloggy and I know I do too, care about other deaf children as well. My wife and I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort helping other families with their ci decision and making certain that the ci remains an option for all deaf people.
Rick
 
rick48 said:
deafskeptic,

Cloggy and I know I do too, care about other deaf children as well. My wife and I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort helping other families with their ci decision and making certain that the ci remains an option for all deaf people.
Rick
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Just out of curiousity, are you providing non bias information like cue speech, ASL, total communication, and any other source too along with CI?
 
beetarehoh said:
Just out of curiousity, are you providing non bias information like cue speech, ASL, total communication, and any other source too along with CI?
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Cloggy did sign with his daughter ..he says they are not anymore cuz there was no need for it. Hope I got that right...

Rick said his daughter is now learning sign language with her deaf friends.

Again, if I am wrong..let me know. It is hard to keep track of who said what..but I believe those two are supportive of sign language but I get the feeling that to them according to their POVs, oral language is more important while sign language is more imporant to me which is probably how this whole bickering got started.

Again, pls correct me if I assumed wrong. Thanks
 
shel90 said:
Cloggy did sign with his daughter ..he says they are not anymore cuz there was no need for it. Hope I got that right...

Rick said his daughter is now learning sign language with her deaf friends.

Again, if I am wrong..let me know. It is hard to keep track of who said what..but I believe those two are supportive of sign language but I get the feeling that to them according to their POVs, oral language is more important while sign language is more imporant to me which is probably how this whole bickering got started.

Again, pls correct me if I assumed wrong. Thanks
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it's not "not anymore" it is "using less" that's way I see eventhough he says otherwise. To say "not anymore" means never
 
shel90 said:
Cloggy did sign with his daughter ..he says they are not anymore cuz there was no need for it. Hope I got that right...

Rick said his daughter is now learning sign language with her deaf friends.

Again, if I am wrong..let me know. It is hard to keep track of who said what..but I believe those two are supportive of sign language but I get the feeling that to them according to their POVs, oral language is more important while sign language is more imporant to me which is probably how this whole bickering got started.

Again, pls correct me if I assumed wrong. Thanks
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Oh ok. Thanks. Honestly, I think I want the bickering to end and try to remain to have good feedbacks with all of you.
 
jillio said:
beetarehoh,

The way I see it you are correct in your interpretations of what everyone is trying to do. And, please continue toshare your experiences, because the saring of your experiences only allows me better understanding sothat I can better serve and advocate for the deaf who come to me for assistance.
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Ok.
 
Deafskeptic, you are right, language is and should be the goal for all deaf kids. I appreciate your experience and honesty in the CI debate. I know that signing is very natural for our son, he "gets" it. As much as he likes hearing (sometimes, he has already learned to chuck it when he is sneaking off to get into his sister's stuff), signing is a much easier way for him to communicate.

The unfortunate thing about this debate is that for the parents that need to hear this message, the one's who's kids are struggling because the parents think that it is some "magic cure", and that they aren't deaf anymore, and that are language delayed, aren't going to hear this message. That is the true shame in this on this board. I think that those parents, and I have talked to some who's kids don't know a single sign, and are struggling in the mainstream environment, really need to see that sign can be helpful for some CI kids, aren't going to even hear this side because they are convinced that their kids are fine. I don't know how, other than through example in our small world, that we help those kids. I think that just by thinking through and reading these posts, any parent should be looking at themselves a little and making sure that they are doing the best they can for their kids. Whether it is portraying a very anti-CI attitude, or a strictly "oral only" attitude.
 
I'm sorry you feel discouraged Colesmum. I think there is indeed a lot of frustration on these boards.

However, opinions are very fluid with time, people have been known to mellow and even change their minds. That's why you have to stay centred on Cole - not on other people who you don't even know. You'll most likely find that when Cole comes of age, that CIs on kids will be less controversial and more "normal" in the deaf community. Many of his same age peers will be like him.

I think that your efforts in trying to hear both sides and in learning sign language will be very much appreciated by Cole when he is grown. You are obviously a very caring and sensitive mum and that's all I want for any deaf child, whatever communication method they end up with.
 
jillio said:
Actually, the argument that the child should be able to choose is very valid, not just for the posters on this board, but for many in the D/d community who do not post on this board. Your posts about Lotte are not in the least threatening, because, if they are true, are certainly the exception to the rule, and not what is seen in the majority of deaf students and toddlers--with or without CI. And yes, ASL is the answer, because without access to a visual language, a deaf child will be forever language deprived. It is the only language to which a deaf child has unimpeded access at all times. The ATV therapy required following implantation almost guarantees language delays because of the sheer effort and amount of time spent in developing auditory and verbal skills in an artificial learning environment.
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Thanks for bringing all this up, and showing that you have no clue!

jillio said:
And it has been said before, and I will say it here again, Lotte is still very young. You have yet to embark on an educational career with her, and therefore, have no idea of what the future holds for her educationally. You cannot possibly predict the future with any certainty. The children that shel and I deal with have surpassed Lotte on that front, and therefore what we report is based on reality, not hopeful prediction or wishful thinking. So hang onto that hope cloggy, and I hope you will not need it in the future. History, however, says you will.
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Funny how I cannot, but you can predict the future....
About "History, however, says you will.".... History doesn't deal with CI. However, statistics do..

jillio said:
No one ever said that Lotte would blame you for giving her a CI--
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On the contrairy...
jillio said:
....what was said was it was just as likely that a child would blame aparent for not implanting as for implanting. Again, you are twisting words to suit your own purpose. Just as you tell us that Lotte can now hear, and is perfectly fine in her adjustment and development, yet on her blog, and another post on thsi board, you fully admitted that she did indeed suffer language delay.
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Well summarised.... She did suffer a language delay, she still does, she's catching up, and she's perfectly fine in her adjustment and development.....
What part is contraditing to you.. .or should I ask, what part don't you like..??

jillio said:
....That might seem minor to you at this point in time, but the true consequences of that will be seen when she arrives at school, and so much attention has to be given tothose language dlays that she is not receiving adequate education in ther subjects.
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Again, do not project the CI-children you see to all children...
Remember Rick... guess you forgot.. I'll refresh your memory.... his daughter has CI for a while now and is really doing everything you hold for impossibe....
I must be really stupid that I listen more to him than you....

jillio said:
....You speak too often of things you have no knowledge of, and are operating from your own limited viewpoint and experience. And then you wonder why people are rude to you.
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Jillio, you speak too often of things you have no knowledge of, and are operating from your own limited viewpoint and experience. And then you wonder why people are rude to you.
 
R2D2 said:
I'm sorry you feel discouraged Colesmum. I think there is indeed a lot of frustration on these boards.

However, opinions are very fluid with time, people have been known to mellow and even change their minds. That's why you have to stay centred on Cole - not on other people who you don't even know. You'll most likely find that when Cole comes of age, that CIs on kids will be less controversial and more "normal" in the deaf community. Many of his same age peers will be like him.

I think that your efforts in trying to hear both sides and in learning sign language will be very much appreciated by Cole when he is grown. You are obviously a very caring and sensitive mum and that's all I want for any deaf child, whatever communication method they end up with.
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You tell her to not listen to other people, but tells here what you think and that CI is good. This is another possible start of a long bashing thread, that I will contribute with a bit here.

This bashing from pro-CI/oralists toward our ASL/deaf culture experts, honestly reminds me of teenagers bashing their parents, because they are depedent on them.

If I was an administrator, I would ban Cloggy a long time ago for insulting, rude comments, trolling and lying. But, on the other side, he is giving us all a bad impression of oralism, both deaf and hearing parents, so perhaps we should keep him here, as an perfect example.

I am outta those CI threads due to lack of time.

Keep up the great work all of you here standing against audism, no names in fear of missing out anyone, but you know who you are!

See you at deafread.com(few captious oralists there due to ASL content :)
 
flip said:
You tell her to not listen to other people, but tells here what you think and that CI is good. This is another possible start of a long bashing thread, that I will contribute with a bit here.

This bashing from pro-CI/oralists toward our ASL/deaf culture experts, honestly reminds me of teenagers bashing their parents, because they are depedent on them.

If I was an administrator, I would ban Cloggy a long time ago for insulting, rude comments, trolling and lying. But, on the other side, he is giving us all a bad impression of oralism, both deaf and hearing parents, so perhaps we should keep him here, as an perfect example.

I am outta those CI threads due to lack of time.

Keep up the great work all of you here standing against audism, no names in fear of missing out anyone, but you know who you are!

See you at deafread.com(few captious oralists there due to ASL content :)
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The craziest thing of all, in my mind, is that you appear to actually believe that all the bashing is coming from "pro-CI/oralists". I see repeated, seemingly unprovoked rudeness and attacks coming the other way.

And no one has explained yet where Cloggy has lied. I'd simply like to see what he lied about so I can understand why he is attacked (I'm guessing it must have started and continues from those prior lies).
 
Cole's mom said:
The unfortunate thing about this debate is that for the parents that need to hear this message, the one's who's kids are struggling because the parents think that it is some "magic cure", and that they aren't deaf anymore, and that are language delayed, aren't going to hear this message.
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Just curious (not just the quoted poster, but anyone), do you know any parents of CI children who think the CI is a 'magic cure'? I haven't met any, and I was wondering if anyone had actually met one of these people who has come out and said they expected their child to be cured of deafness after the CI?

I know plenty of people who are NOT the parents (relatives, friends, etc) who think that, but then they haven't done the research prior to implantation (that the parents do) to know what it is and what it does. All of the parents of CI children that I've met or had conversations with are very knowledgeable about the subject and are the first to tell people the CI is NOT a cure, merely a tool. I've had to correct people on that numerous times myself.

I think there are probably some people who don't get the desired outcome they were hoping for, but that doesn't mean they were misinformed to begin with, only unrealistic.

I, frankly, like these types of discussions. Since we live in an area with no deaf community I think it's interesting to see everyone's opinions on controversial subjects, even if they don't agree with mine.
 
I do get what you are saying, Momtodeafchild, that the extended family doesn't get that it isn't a magic cure. I know that a lot of Cole's extended family think it is, and partly that is because this whole thing is new and they haven't spent enough time with him to see him the situations where it doesn't work well, like restaurants, walking along busy streets, etc. And partly to feel excused from having to learn sign to communicate with him. Which honestly is one reason why we implanted him, so he could communicate orally.

But, at the TC program here in my community, I was very shocked and disappointed in the level of language skills in the preschool program when I visited. I dropped in one day to check it out, and the implanted kids I saw in that class were very behind, even to my "uneducated" eye. I asked and was told that some of the families don't use any sign, and the kid wears the CI inconsistently at home, which means they are missing tons. I guess I can't speak for these parents and say they think it is a magic cure, but I just took that from their actions.

I do try and keep the focus on Cole, but I really enjoy reading the posts on AD. I want my son to feel a part of the deaf world, if he chooses, as well as the hearing. And I do know that out there, there are people who will support us and our son, and I enjoy this debate as well.
 
deafskeptic said:
Although I have a sense of disquiet regarding the fact that Lotte is slightly delayed in her language skills, it could be due to the fact she's bilingual. I do not know how hard it is for deaf children to learn either Dutch or Norwegian. I'd think that Lotte's family would be on the alert and step in before she gets too far behind. I'd hope that neither of the languages is as hard to learn as English or Chinese.

I.
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Well to me Norweigan looks worse then English. :eek3: My dad took it as his foreign language class and had a college book for the class in the house when I was in hs. Looked hard to me, for him it probably wasn't that hard since his grandparents immigrated and spoke the language at home. Since Norwegian is Lotte's native language I'm sure that she has no more difficulty learning it then my kids had learning english.
 
Cole's mom said:
Feeling like I may have gone a bit overboard. I think that the opinions are all valid on this board. Jillio, that you are doing everything you can to educate and be an advocate for those who chose sign is wonderful, however, you come across as one who is extremely intolerant of anyone who has had a positive experience with CI. Beetarehoh, you're opinion means a lot because it is your own personal experience and you can at least admit honestly that others may have a way that is positive as well. Once again, I like this board, and I think that this debate is great for all sides, as both have very good points that the other should acknowledge. Shel, as always, I think that you bring a great balance of pointing out truth while being open to others.
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You misunderstand. I am not intolerant, nor have I aever been intolerant of anyone who has had a positive experience with a CI. As said before on numerous occasions, I work with deaf students at the college level who have CIs, my son has pesoanl friends who have CIs and I know a few adults who use CIs. It is not the implantation that I am intolerant of. I am, however, intolerant of the view that the CI somehow makes one less deaf, and with the CI, sign is no longer necessary for the full and complete language acquisition of the deaf child. As you are obviously continueing to use sign with your son, and state that he is still very reliant on sign for communication, you obviously do not fall into this category.

What you have mistaken for intolerance of those who have chosen another way is frustration over the attitude directed toward those who offer the evidence for another way other than the CI that can be just as successful. I sim0ply cannnot, for the life of me, after having been directly involved for over 20 years on a personal and for the last 5 at a professional level, how anyone can still advocate that the separation of a deaf child from Deaf culture and langauge is sound educational or social policy.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, and will continue to say it. I do not oppose the CI. I oppose the attitude that too often surrounds it, and that is the medalized perspective of deafness as pathology and something to be treated and overcome. That is the perspective that has kept deaf individuals disabled for too many years. It is the perspective that defines them as partially hearing, rather than wholly deaf. And I refer to that not in the sense of auditory funciton, but in the self perception and in the perception of others. I am refering to issues that lead to mental health issues that do require treatment--not because of the deafness, but because of the social issues that lead to marginalized status for the deaf individual. I watch these forces at sork on a daily basis, and have devoted my master's level wrok, and now my doctorate level, to research on these issues.

If you will go back and check my posts previous, I believe you will find that I have indeed supported you, and other parents who come here to learn about the issues, whether their child has been implanted or not. The implant is not the issue with me. It is the well being of those deaf children. It doesn't matter to me what level their says they perceive sound, or what frequencies. What matters to me is that they are deaf, some with CI, come not, still deaf. And it matters to me that they are given the fair opportunity to thrive and be successful that all children have. Unfortunately, that is too often not the case. They are handicaped not by their deafness, but by the attitudes of those that believe that the only natural and useful language is an auditory verbal language, and that ALL must adapt to and adjust tothe linguistic environment of the whole. That is not integration, it is assimmilation, and it destroys the very systems that can help to support and encourage the deaf child in the face of the wider society's marginalization.

When you begin to deal with issues such as schooling for your son, and have the experience of attempting to obtain services that you know are necessary for your child to thrive in an educational environment, and run up against those systems that are insensitive at best, at worst downright uncaring, when you encounter the situation of funding being more important than the proper education of your deaf child, when you see individual teachers allowing him to sit in the back of the room to grasp whatever he can by sheer effort on his part becasue they have neither the training nor the time to work with him on his own terms--after some of these experiences you may change your mind and see me as justified in my intolerance.

I do not advocate for those who only use sign. I currently have under my office, 4 oral students as well. I advocate for them, as they as well, need special support services to insure that they receive equal opportunity for education that is equal to that provided the hearing students.

When you see my responses to some of the posters who continue to insist that deaf children with CI can now hear and therefore have no use for deaf culture or sign language, you perhaps judge my beliefs and my convictions on those posts alone. Deaf children with CI can hear, and some deaf children with HA can hear, and some deaf children even receive benefit from personal FM systems. However, they are all still deaf, and they all still need to be recognized as such. It is the distinctive communication needs, and the distinctive experience that they all share that unites. And they share another experience as well. No matter that they are thrown into the world of the hearing, and perhaps are never in contact with another deaf individual, they will always be the one that stands out as being, in some fundamental way, different. And because of that, they will strive to be more and more like those around them, but will never quite be able to achieve that for which they strive. This is what has such a negative effect on the development of self esteem, on the ability of the deaf child to see themselves as valuable and equal to their hearing peers. The only way to combat that, in a proactive way, is to allow thaose children exposure to deaf adults and children so that they may have role models that they can relate to and friends who share what the hearing peers never can. Instead, it seems to be the standard to spend their childhood trying tomake them as near totheir hearingpeers as we can, and then, when they become teenagers and young adults, start to deal with the problems that we have created for them.

I have taken the time to post this as it would appear to me that you are truly open minded and trying to weigh all of the issues. Pleasse continue to do that. Do not become one of those parents that shuts out any inforamtion that doesn't agree with the view that they currently hold. All I ask is that you recognize the possibilities that the future hold, not just negative, but positive as well; and understand that as that child grows and develops, the issues also change.
 
Cloggy said:
Thanks for bringing all this up, and showing that you have no clue!

Funny how I cannot, but you can predict the future....
About "History, however, says you will.".... History doesn't deal with CI. However, statistics do..

On the contrairy...

Well summarised.... She did suffer a language delay, she still does, she's catching up, and she's perfectly fine in her adjustment and development.....
What part is contraditing to you.. .or should I ask, what part don't you like..??

Again, do not project the CI-children you see to all children...
Remember Rick... guess you forgot.. I'll refresh your memory.... his daughter has CI for a while now and is really doing everything you hold for impossibe....
I must be really stupid that I listen more to him than you....


Jillio, you speak too often of things you have no knowledge of, and are operating from your own limited viewpoint and experience. And then you wonder why people are rude to you.
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You know, I am finished feeding the trolls. My time is much better spent aimed toward those who are actually educable and open minded.:wave: Bye, bye!
 
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