Audism at its peak in deaf school

rockdrummer said:
this happens all the time and I don't feel disrespected nor do I feel they are talking about me. I work in a highly diverse workplace where we do have many people from different cultures and several of them use their native langage and switch between that and English and personally I don't see a problem with it.
Click to expand...

But you can learn the language and then have full access to it once you learn it. Deaf people dont.
 
rockdrummer said:
this happens all the time and I don't feel disrespected nor do I feel they are talking about me. I work in a highly diverse workplace where we do have many people from different cultures and several of them use their native langage and switch between that and English and personally I don't see a problem with it.
Click to expand...

I'm going with how the original poster described the situation, which is that hearing people switch languages not because they're more comfortable in another language, but because they want to talk about others in their presence.

I live in New York, and people switch languages all the time. That's life.

In my field, it's assumed that people speak more than one language. Our common language is English, but if, say, two people who speak Spanish happen to end up in the same spot, they might switch to Spanish because they're comfortable with that. And if someone has a problem with that, they really need to get over themselves!

Everyone in the room can tell the difference between sharing common ground and deliberately excluding others. (It's body language -- pointing at other people, or looking pointedly at them, for example. Also, you learn the insulting words. I don't speak Spanish, but I now the insults, and if I hear my name and the rude words, I know what's going on.)

And there's another thing. Some -- by no means all -- but some hearing people do treat deaf/HOH people as lesser than them. How? By deliberately waiting until the deaf/HOH person is not looking to make fun of them. By deliberately leaving deaf people out of the conversation by speaking quickly or muttering. Or by saying something rude, then claiming they said something else.

When I was fully hearing, I saw and heard people do that to my deaf relatives. I have students who do that to me now that I'm HOH.

AND there is the whole awful history of oralist schools, where it was assumed that hearing people were better teachers because they could hear. The OP didn't say, but I wonder if these hearing teachers think that too.

So there is:
a. a double standard involved, as switching into another language specifically to talk about others in their presence is rude among hearing people, and doesn't become less rude in a deaf environment
b. valid reason for deaf/HOH people to be suspicious of some hearing people deliberately excluding them
c. a long and painful history of hearing people being automatically assumed to be better teachers than deaf people.

I think the original poster has good reason to question these people's behavior.
 
ms_redcat said:
I'm going with how the original poster described the situation, which is that hearing people switch languages not because they're more comfortable in another language, but because they want to talk about others in their presence.

I live in New York, and people switch languages all the time. That's life.

In my field, it's assumed that people speak more than one language. Our common language is English, but if, say, two people who speak Spanish happen to end up in the same spot, they might switch to Spanish because they're comfortable with that. And if someone has a problem with that, they really need to get over themselves!

Everyone in the room can tell the difference between sharing common ground and deliberately excluding others. (It's body language -- pointing at other people, or looking pointedly at them, for example. Also, you learn the insulting words. I don't speak Spanish, but I now the insults, and if I hear my name and the rude words, I know what's going on.)

And there's another thing. Some -- by no means all -- but some hearing people do treat deaf/HOH people as lesser than them. How? By deliberately waiting until the deaf/HOH person is not looking to make fun of them. By deliberately leaving deaf people out of the conversation by speaking quickly or muttering. Or by saying something rude, then claiming they said something else.

When I was fully hearing, I saw and heard people do that to my deaf relatives. I have students who do that to me now that I'm HOH.

AND there is the whole awful history of oralist schools, where it was assumed that hearing people were better teachers because they could hear. The OP didn't say, but I wonder if these hearing teachers think that too.

So there is:
a. a double standard involved, as switching into another language specifically to talk about others in their presence is rude among hearing people, and doesn't become less rude in a deaf environment
b. valid reason for deaf/HOH people to be suspicious of some hearing people deliberately excluding them
c. a long and painful history of hearing people being automatically assumed to be better teachers than deaf people.

I think the original poster has good reason to question these people's behavior.
Click to expand...

U got it right on the spot.

RD, no offense but I really think you are seeing this from a hearing perspective rather than from a deaf perspective hence your views.
 
ms_redcat said:
I'm going with how the original poster described the situation, which is that hearing people switch languages not because they're more comfortable in another language, but because they want to talk about others in their presence.

I live in New York, and people switch languages all the time. That's life.

In my field, it's assumed that people speak more than one language. Our common language is English, but if, say, two people who speak Spanish happen to end up in the same spot, they might switch to Spanish because they're comfortable with that. And if someone has a problem with that, they really need to get over themselves!

Everyone in the room can tell the difference between sharing common ground and deliberately excluding others. (It's body language -- pointing at other people, or looking pointedly at them, for example. Also, you learn the insulting words. I don't speak Spanish, but I now the insults, and if I hear my name and the rude words, I know what's going on.)

And there's another thing. Some -- by no means all -- but some hearing people do treat deaf/HOH people as lesser than them. How? By deliberately waiting until the deaf/HOH person is not looking to make fun of them. By deliberately leaving deaf people out of the conversation by speaking quickly or muttering. Or by saying something rude, then claiming they said something else.

When I was fully hearing, I saw and heard people do that to my deaf relatives. I have students who do that to me now that I'm HOH.

AND there is the whole awful history of oralist schools, where it was assumed that hearing people were better teachers because they could hear. The OP didn't say, but I wonder if these hearing teachers think that too.

So there is:
a. a double standard involved, as switching into another language specifically to talk about others in their presence is rude among hearing people, and doesn't become less rude in a deaf environment
b. valid reason for deaf/HOH people to be suspicious of some hearing people deliberately excluding them
c. a long and painful history of hearing people being automatically assumed to be better teachers than deaf people.

I think the original poster has good reason to question these people's behavior.
Click to expand...

Thank You! I've been mocked and made fun of too many times too. Top of it all, they brush you off as if you are being silly or ridiculous when in fact, many of my hearing friends will confirmed I'm not imagining it. People really do treat you that way. It's also terrible when someone is a teacher and they don't care because that teacher is excluded too because she is deaf.

Ever had a group of doctors talk about your condition in medical jargon but they neglect to tell you anything because you are just a case study and not human to them? I'm trying to get you to understand.

Just a few ago, I decided to do an RSS reader to deaf group blog, and I was reading about how a girl who saw all these people whispering.. She couldn't understand them and yet everyone, including the teacher, heard what's going on. She wanted to know what's going on so she decided to ask if anyone tell her what's going on. for a while, everyone hesitate to let her know because it was really a taboo or hush hush and yet everyone is talking about it. So one girl stood up and announced, there a rumor about school shooting. Would that be awful if that girl was left out of the rumor just because she couldn't hear the whispering? Thank goodness that girl stood up and include the deaf girl in the rumor.
 
shel90 said:
The hearing staff are fluent in ASL and if deaf people are chatting in ASL, those hearing staff have access to it but when they chat in spoken language, deaf people dont have access it. It is disrespectful especially at a deaf school.
Click to expand...

i find this real strange, i mean while in NZ, its a rarity to find a hearing teacher/staff who are fluent in sign language. Now all the while (at this point in time, in New Zealand half the those in the 'community' and/or those in 'the education profession or those in research or politics or whatnot, says 'we need more fluent signers to facilitate pedagogical transmissions' but this thread tells me that even so that in the United States there are hearing teachers/staff whose are fluent but it is apparently not successful because the sheer ignorance prevailed, even worse, (hearing) staffs/teachers continues to fail to realise this. This is dreadful, now I, and probably along with many observant members of AD would see this as a worrying cause for despair that audism has not been dealt with. More to the point, we got cultural politics, we got sign language interpreters and 'standards' for these professions in place, yet all this only goes so far, it doesnt even touch audism, or any of its ways how to address this very problems of audism. DeafBajagirl had more a strong point which we shouldnt and couldnt afford to ignore. This seems to suggest we should look at what is the weak point of cultural movements - which in my view the lucrative aspects of these "professions" is downplayed - and often away the attention of the d/Deaf population this begs a question to how we might need to consider how to attach a different form of 'rights' dialogue to assert our expectations, to put simply; we need to stand and say 'this is enough' we have taught you sign languages, now we expect you to USE it to include us, do we want more failing d/Deaf students in the future merely because your ignorances have continue to hurt students feelings?' THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, in fact in my own opinion, it ought to be against the law to switch at will in such an environment; teachers have too much power.

I will leave the rest to you to discuss it further, because for all I know, I am not sure if any of you might understand my post here fully, or that am I trying in vain say something too different, which quite possibly be a waste of time to elaborate at this point. However, this is how I see it, and indeed Audism is something we all ought to seriously think long and hard again about what is really means, its not something from the 1970's its is now and everywhere.
 
shel90 said:
U got it right on the spot.

RD, no offense but I really think you are seeing this from a hearing perspective rather than from a deaf perspective hence your views.
Click to expand...

hmm, Shel i think she's speaking from a feelings that is sentient perspective, in other words a human perspective. Deaf people arent the only ones facing audism, just like racism it doest just affect dark skinned negroes, it affect celebrities also (think Halle Berry) she's a very pale black women , we can be sure she'd face some from of unfavourable social reactions because she's not white....
on the other hand, she could be 'acting and speaking' more like whites taking roles as a 'rich and famous white actress, similariy Barack Obama, might be half-black - he isnt immune from any form of racism either, coming back full circle, a 'high functioning Hoh' (now dont get shitty and start on this one) this Hoh is still going to face and be hammered by many similar (and different shapes) of Audism as does to a Deaf (regardless of whether he/she is highly qualified or poor and uneducated- doesnt matter really) . The crux is, audsim is still audism, full stop, there's nothing about being more deaf or lesser hearing about it, it is audism pure and simple. Ms Redcats logical deductionalism has nothing to do with being 'more hearie' its just she's pretty bright and being real, nothing more and nothing less. But, (starting a sentence with a but is really bad style but fuk it, its not an essay) I can 'see' where youre coming from too, just this post was to say 'hold it, consider this take too. that's all a freindly reminder, we're all humans too with real feelings, not some textual species in the nets who have a spooky boo quality, waving the flag of idealism.
 
shel90 said:
U got it right on the spot.

RD, no offense but I really think you are seeing this from a hearing perspective rather than from a deaf perspective hence your views.
Click to expand...
No offense taken Shel. It's just an observation. I tend to try and see things from all points of view and I believe this just like many things in life have to be considered on a case by case basis. That said, I do agree that if the hearing teachers are doing this maliciously then that is wrong. But consider this. There are times that people don't want to involve others in conversations and there may be legitimate reasons for that. In teaching they may be discussing grades or test strategies or something along those lines. Those are just examples or it may even be something personal. The problem with sign language is that everyone can see your conversation. How do you whisper in sign language?

Personally, to be fair I can't draw a conclusion unless I know what the reasons are. As I said, if the motivation is of a malicious nature then I completely agree that it's wrong. The problem is that people tend to draw conclusions based on speculation of what the motivation is. I don't like to do that. There are always two sides to a story. Sometimes three. And we have discussed before how some people throw audisim around loosely. I am not suggesting that the OP has done this but it does happen.
 
isn't whispering consider rude in the hearing world?

whisper.jpg
 
There are times that people don't want to involve others in conversations and there may be legitimate reasons for that. In teaching they may be discussing grades or test strategies or something along those lines. Those are just examples or it may even be something personal. The problem with sign language is that everyone can see your conversation. How do you whisper in sign language?
Click to expand...
hmmm, in my public school, alot of kids hear their teachers talk about this sort of thing. it doesn't mean they always listen to it. whenever a teacher disrupt a class to talk to another teacher, those kids ALWAYS listen to it because the teachers drew attention to them that way. That's why they talk about this privately. Just because teachers sign it doesn't mean the kids pay attention to it if the kids are busy playing or talking with each other... Personally, it's a good social skills to learn how to carry a conversation for deaf kids because they don't get the same opportunity as hearing kids. Hearing kids tend to overhear their parents' conversation to learn how to carrry a conservation. I figure that out from my own hearing son. Everything I say or do, he does the same thing.


Personally, to be fair I can't draw a conclusion unless I know what the reasons are. As I said, if the motivation is of a malicious nature then I completely agree that it's wrong. The problem is that people tend to draw conclusions based on speculation of what the motivation is. I don't like to do that. There are always two sides to a story. Sometimes three. And we have discussed before how some people throw audisim around loosely. I am not suggesting that the OP has done this but it does happen.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter what their motive are... like the picture I showed, those girls could be talking about you, or they are talking about something else like a surprise party.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I think deaf people would have worried about that a long time ago. It haven't stopped them from signing.
Click to expand...
I don't understand your answer. There must be times when deaf people want to have a private conversation in the presence of others. Do they just turn away? Would that be considered rude? :dunno:
 
I am saying they don't worry about it too much. If the conversation really THAT private they should just go to a private room. But most conversations are not private enough to do that and no one really pay attention to it. I mean, other hearing teachers who walk by can hear them, but not deaf teachers.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I am saying they don't worry about it too much. If the conversation really THAT private they should just go to a private room. But most conversations are not private enough to do that. I mean, other hearing teachers who walk by can hear them, but not deaf teachers.
Click to expand...
I agree but that is not always possible. It's also why I personally believe these types of things need to be considered on a case by case basis.
 
I think they are taking advantage of these kids' deafness to believe they can talk about anything they want. Maybe we should put some hearing kids in their class and they will stop.

I wonder why hearing people so worry about deaf people seeing their conversation so much.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I think they are taking advantage of these kids' deafness to believe they can talk about anything they want. Maybe we should put some hearing kids in their class and they will stop.

I wonder why hearing people so worry about deaf people seeing their conversation so much.
Click to expand...
I for one won't draw a conclusion based on speculation. There are conversations that are not intended for others and it has nothing to do with hearing people worrying about deaf people seeing their conversations. I am sure it applies in both directions. I am not siding with anyone here. I'm just trying to be fair about it.
 
even if it not intended for others, I think it is very wrong to justify not signing because you think deaf people are nosy and they can see their conversation. So many hearing people worry about this and think they should use their voice instead.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
even if it not intended for others, I think it is very wrong to justify not signing because you think deaf people are nosy and they can see their conversation. So many hearing people worry about this and think they should use their voice instead.
Click to expand...
I am not sure why you would choose to conclude that hearing people are thinking deaf people are nosy. It's obvious that if you are using sign language that anyone within eyeshot will be able to see your conversation. Again, I am not defending anything here but only trying to be fair. I would love to find out from one of these teachers first hand what has motivated them to do this as opposed to speculating.
 
It's obvious that if you are using sign language that anyone within eyeshot will be able to see your conversation.
Click to expand...
If you don't think deaf people are nosy, then you wouldn't worry about being within eyeshot.
 
Back
Top