ASL vs ESL

[Taylor]

ASL vs SEE

[EDIT]Corrected Title from ASL vs ESL to ASL vs SEE because of my own ignorance on the definitions of each [/EDIT]

I just wanted to get some opinions from members regarding the use of ASL or ESL from a hearing persons perspective. I've been studying ASL, but the contact I've had with people in the deaf community seem to be signing standard English phrases using English grammar. When it comes to learning sign language, would it be better to focus on ASL or ESL.


From a hearing persons standpoint, I would think that ESL would be easier as one would already be familiar with English Grammar. Learning ASL is like learning a complete new language with its own rules, same as one learning Spanish or French.

While studying sign language, which is more practical to learn and which version should resources be focused on? On a similar note, does knowing one of them mean you could communicate with someone who was more familiar with other. My impression is (and correct me if I'm wrong) the same signs are used, but the difference lies in grammar and sentence structure. Would that be a correct assumption?
An older thread I read really stands out in regards to the usage of ASL
http://alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=8453&highlight=english+sign+language

Lastly, is one more highly regarded than the other among the deaf community. I see ASL mentioned more, so would an ESL user be shunned?

 

[johnesco]

Esl?

I thought ESL meant "English as a Second Language"

Do you mean SEE? "Signed Exact English"

 

[VamPyroX]

ESL or SEE... I think either is best used for educational purposes and encouraged while communicating. Once they develop good grammar skills after graduating from high school, they can move on with ASL.

 

[Reba]

OK, this is from a hearing person (interpreter) perspective.

First, a few questions for you.

What is the age group of the Deaf community with whom you interact? It does make a difference. I will explain later.

What is your goal for learning sign language? Do you want to be a social signer, or do you plan on becoming a professional interpreter?

Where are you learning sign language? As part of a colleger interpreter training program, or in community non-credit classes?

Who is your instructor? Not the person's name, but what kind of qualification does the instructor have? Certified interpreter? CODA? Deaf?

Do you know the different terms for describing sign language? Here are some basic definitions:

ASL: American Sign Language; an actual language with its own vocabulary, grammar, and syntex. The "sentence" structure is not the same as spoken/written English.

SEE 1 and SEE 2: Sign language systems, not natural languages, developed by hearing educators for teaching English language in school settings. These systems use English word order. (I can link you to more detailed descriptions and history, if you are interested.) Incorporates word/sign "endings" rather than classifiers and non-manual markers.

PSE: Pidgin (NOT "pigeon", smile) Signed English. A "contact" language that bridges communication between ASL and SEE users. This form of communication varies on the sign language continuum. If you picture strict SEE on the far left point of a line, and pure ASL on the far right point, PSE fills the whole range in between. Some users have a higher percentage SEE, some have a higher percentage ASL. Mixes some English word order with some ASL signs and classifiers. More initializing used than ASL signs.

CASE: Conceptually Accurate Signed Language. The current term that has replaced PSE. This system uses ASL conceptual signs but in English word order. Is more conceptual than SEE. More initializing than ASL.

Some of the points I give you vary by geographical area, so a lot depends on where you live. These are general statements:

1. Older Deaf who were exclusively educated at residential schools tend to prefer ASL. (There are some exceptions.) Older Deaf also socialized more exclusively with each other at Deaf Clubs and thru TTY, therefore maintaining a close-knit community with common language and goals.

Younger Deaf, educated thru "mainstream" programs grow up without the tight Deaf community to reinforce common language and goals. They usually don't join Deaf clubs and prefer to communicate with friends thru email and IM, rather than TTY or Relay. They very rarely even see an adult Deaf role model while attending school. They learn sign language from hearing educational terps (of varying degrees of fluency) and their peers. There is no uniformity of sign language kind or skill throughout the U.S. school districts. Very few mainstream programs actually use full ASL. These Deaf tend to use CASE/PSE.

Some younger Deaf attended residential school or day programs where they got more Deaf kid socialization and ASL reinforcement.

Some mainstream-trained Deaf become more ASL if the attend Gallaudet, or become socially active with Deaf groups.

When it comes to learning sign language, would it be better to focus on ASL or ESL.

Just a gentle correction. "ESL" is incorrect if you mean "English Sign Language". In the education field, ESL means "English as a Second Language" and refers to foreign language speakers who learn English. SEE (Signing Exact English) or Signed English is the term you should use when referring to the Engish signed system. Signed English is not a language as real languages are defined.

From a hearing persons standpoint, I would think that ESL would be easier as one would already be familiar with English Grammar. Learning ASL is like learning a complete new language with its own rules, same as one learning Spanish or French.

Yes, signed English is easier than ASL for hearing people to learn. Easier does not mean better. Learning to ride a bike with training wheels is easier but it is not a better way to learn for the long term. If you had to learn college level Spanish you would take a Spanish course, not a TexMex course.

While studying sign language, which is more practical to learn and which version should resources be focused on?

That depends on your goals. That is why I asked you the above questions. After you reply, I will give you further info.

On a similar note, does knowing one of them mean you could communicate with someone who was more familiar with other.

You could probably "get by" with limited communication. Most Deaf people are skilled at "code switching" which means they can adapt their signing style to fit the level of the hearing person's signing.

My impression is (and correct me if I'm wrong) the same signs are used, but the difference lies in grammar and sentence structure. Would that be a correct assumption?

Not exactly. If you compare signs in an ASL dictionary with signs in a Signed English dictionary, many of them would look similar (with more initializing of the English signs). But there is much more to sign language than a list of signs. Signs and words are not a one-on-one substitution.

Like I said, you could "get by" that way. It would be like travelling to a foreign country and depending on pointing out words in a foreign language dictionary for communication. It's a start but that's all.

I will be glad to give you more info, if you are interested.

 

[tobetaxfree]

thank you -and maybe you can guide me also.

My name is Ed,and I am new to alldeaf, and have come here because I want to learn ASL. I also want to teach my son(wife and daughter) ASL if possible. This is how I got to this point: I have wanted to learn ASL for some time now, ~15 years.
I have a 3 year old hearing son who is very bright. He was watching a show where some people would talk and sign, or sing and sign etc. He showed a lot of interest and repeated the signs correctly several days later.
I thought it would be great to learn "sign language" with him.
In Cincinnati, I believe there is a program that tries to connect HOH/deaf children with hearing children. I would like for him, and myself to be able to communicate with the deaf community.
I don't have a problem with language structure being different myself, since I have studied Latin and Spanish. I would like to know if it would be better to teach my son ASL from the beginning, or go with SEE, and proceed from there.

Also are there any particular resources we could tap into for help here locally, that you might be aware of? Thank you for your time

 

[Taylor]

Ed,
Welcome to AD and I hope you (and the family) enjoy the stay. I'm sure one of the members more knowledgable will be able to answer your questions.

Thanks to all who took the time to reply to my questions. Thank You also for pointing out and clarifying the things I had incorrect.

The proper term would have been ASL vs SEE. The few people that I've seen signing to each other are signing words in the order in which they are spoken in English. I was told (although incorrectly) that is what ESL, when in fact it was 'Signed Exact English' or SEE. I apoligize for my ignorance of the subject and thanks for correcting such a mistake.

What is your goal for learning sign language? Do you want to be a social signer, or do you plan on becoming a professional interpreter?

Actually, its a little bit of both. Sign language is a very interesting language and I've been having fun with what I've learned so far. So, some of my interests are founded from a social aspect. From a professional aspect, the profession I'm in could use a few interepreters, or at least someone who has an idea of whats taking place.

In fact, an incident happened today where someone was trying to communicate with someone who was deaf, but could not write either. In the past, we could sucessfully communicate via writing messages to each other and a few gestures. This caused a minor hiccup and an interpreter was called in. Although our department has very little contact with the deaf community, it would be nice to have someone on staff who could work as an interpreter when needed.

What is the age group of the Deaf community with whom you interact?

The age group would vary quite a bit, but I can say most will be over the age of 18 (probably most over 25 to 30 y/o).

Where are you learning sign language? As part of a colleger interpreter training program, or in community non-credit classes?

I'm awaiting the next round of classes at our local community college. ( I just missed the fall enrollment). One of the problems I will have with going to school is my work schedule. We have a rotating schedule where for four days we are working overnights (midnight shift), another four days we are doing day work, and on another rotation would be evenings. This causes quite a problem because this week I may be working days and can attend evening classes, but next week I'll be working evenings. After that, I'll be sleeping during the day and working at night...and then the cycle starts over again. Its difficult to fit any college classes into that type of work schedule.

Reba, Thank You so much for the other answers, clarifications, corrections and statements you've provided. It has been quite helpful and corrects a few misunderstandings that I've had. I'm sorry that my above answers are so vague, but should give you an idea of where I'm going. Whether my signing is social or professional, I hope to make some friends out of learning it and I do picture myself using it more socially than professionally. Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of contact with our deaf community. I know there are some as I see them in my line of work, and have seen people at the mall signing away to each other (and of course, I remember not to stare )

 

[Margie]

Go for it Ed!

Hi Ed,
Thats great! That your son is interested in learning ASL.
On our website we have some books, dvd's and vhs tapes to can get to teach your son more ASL.
Also if you have a cc tv( Closed Caption) that will help him learn to read.
Heres our website:deafadvoacy.org
Good luck!
Margie

 

[rjr2006]

I started Signed English when I was two years old then I learned ASL through the interpreter because she only interpreted using ASL. Signed English is my primary language with my family. I know both languages well but, I prefer Signed English.

 

[Silentcougar]

ASL is best!

I know it is hard for hearing people to learn ASL. However, if they practice hard, they will sucessed.

I agree that ESL is not properly word to use for Sign Exact English. Here in Gally, ESL means English as second language. Sorry.

However, if I can learn Spanish language and Spanish sign language. Then you can learn ASL.

Let me to give you one different view: ASL is Deaf's language, that is why it is different from SEE.

SEE is what the hearing people create for deaf. But the irony thing is that even that you learn SEE. How come that you sign SEE and no hearing people can understand it? Well, it is not their language, period. Hearing people can't use SEE, even if it is English, they have to learn it and after that. What is next?

ASL is only language that is for deaf, because it is their true language.

 

[jillio]

My name is Ed,and I am new to alldeaf, and have come here because I want to learn ASL. I also want to teach my son(wife and daughter) ASL if possible. This is how I got to this point: I have wanted to learn ASL for some time now, ~15 years.
I have a 3 year old hearing son who is very bright. He was watching a show where some people would talk and sign, or sing and sign etc. He showed a lot of interest and repeated the signs correctly several days later.
I thought it would be great to learn "sign language" with him.
In Cincinnati, I believe there is a program that tries to connect HOH/deaf children with hearing children. I would like for him, and myself to be able to communicate with the deaf community.
I don't have a problem with language structure being different myself, since I have studied Latin and Spanish. I would like to know if it would be better to teach my son ASL from the beginning, or go with SEE, and proceed from there.

Also are there any particular resources we could tap into for help here locally, that you might be aware of? Thank you for your time

Give St. Rita School for the Deaf a call. Their LOFT program is the one I am certain you are referring to.