About this Deaf Culture thing...

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

PFH , You not having something to say , in fact I was waiting on the edge of my seat for your response :P

Its like a chess match now. I need to be aware of what I am doing, and pick my battles wisely. Deaf on Deaf fighting of all sorts should stop.

I certainly had an opinion on that, but was it worth the energy to even bother in this specific case?

There was so much hypocrisy in what he had to say. When people didn't even respond to him and he had to come and point the question out again - that was the best thing that could have happened. He will eventually learn that his questioning/approach is not accepted in general.

Thats the approach I am taking now especially after taking the Alice Shrugged workshop and thinking about the grand picture.

You definitely have a point there.

 

[Frisky Feline]

this may be off the point but it still relates with "deaf culture". Over the years, I have been around between hearing, and deaf issue. Since I went to gally, and there were some oral deal kids or hoh, ( of course some of them are real cool) seem to learn so much about deaf culture. That is cool for me. One thing is that I learn something about HOH and oral deaf people that is their first favorite question, it seems so was that "oh you can hear some? with HAs?" with their frowning facial expressions. At first, I was sort of startle by their questions because it was all new to me. They are puzzle as to why I am an ASL user yet, and I use HAs. I was like, " yeah ?" While other deaf people who are the same as i do , and they don't bother to ask what HOH or oral deaf people ask a first very same question. That's how I would knew if they ask about "can you hear?" then they are learning about the deaf culture. Or they tend to tell me what do they mean or tell me what sentences mean when I did not ask for it because they saw my language that seems to be limiting to them when they thought I wouldnt understand while people with solid deaf culture that they wouldn't bother to, because they know I understand, no matter what if my english is not the same as them, and still understand them without asking " what do you mean by that?" They also know if some of us may not understand then will ask for a specfic question, that does not mean i didn;t understand the whole, just some words that can be trick. I got use like this with hearing people but now HOH or oral deaf people too. Not with the people with soild of the deaf culture.
It is interesting for me to see that is obvious about people with no experience of deaf culture. If they are willing to learn about the deaf culture then that's great because they ARE in the deaf culture as long as they are interested in learning about it. Same thing for me to learn more from HOH and oral deaf people everyday. I have pretty familiar with hearing people that i grew up and live with. But HOH and oral deaf people are pretty different than hearing people because of their between hearing world and deaf world. So I would know anyone who have deaf culture that I don't need to ask and go flow with the conversation from there.

 

[GrendelQ]

Please read Lane before you make assumpations that fit your sole world view. The fact that you haven't read Lane does not mean I haven't either.

First, I do think Deaf Culture exists and thrives. I also think there may be a deaf ethnicity that applies to a very distinct and defined group of American Deaf of Deaf. And I don't think my Culturally Deaf daughter, who is Chinese, born in China, and has no genetic markers for deafness or connection with the founding Deaf families in America, is Ethnically Deaf and no amount of your gut feeling is going to change that based on what the concept of ethnicity means: it must include heritage or origin.

I'm no expert on Lane's writings, some of which I've read. Although I don't share quite a few of his opinions and conclusions, I respect some of Lane's research in some cases, abhor the lack of research in other cases, but always enjoy getting to know his thinking. I'm not disagreeing with you because you are deaf, I'm disagreeing with you because your 'facts' are wrong and your logic is faulty, and you are just being nasty by throwing around the audist label and making what you call "assumpations" about what I've read to cover that.

If you had read Lane's latest book, you would see that he has made a very clear distinction between various deaf people, identifying a group of American Deaf who have benefitted from "ancestral transmission" as sharing some of the properties that are demonstrated by certain ethnic groups. In asking if these hereditary Deaf might be considered an ethnic group, he is referring very specifically to their hereditary connections, as people born deaf of deaf tracing back to the founding Deaf families. His data is here. He states that the central issue in determining ethnicity is ancestry.

This paragraph from you is an example of people in denial that is described in the OP of this thread.

Where do you see that?

So again: I sense deaf ethnicity in your daughter, like Lane, a hearing authority that you have stated you agree with, and I am free do to so. It's not an insult. Telling me to keep that for myself is pretty emotional.

And mind, I haven't told you to stop audist behavior, just asking if your behavior is audist.

You would have to conduct a background check and genetic lab tests to "sense" someone's ethnicity, I don't believe you can sniff that out online.

Children without a great command of discourse often do what you've just done (I ask you not to react emotionally by labeling me as audist for disagreeing with you. You then say I'm emotional for calling you on your objectionable and emotional behavior? ) Repeatedly throwing "audist" at me without any basis for doing so is an emotional, irresponsible, and childish response.

Since you obviously can't handle an adult discussion of the nature of ethnicity and culture, I'll put this in terms that are more your speed, using the same construction you've used with me above: Isn't your premise an example of stupidity? (Mind you, I'm not telling you to stop being stupid, just asking if your thinking is stupid). Oh, and please don't let that question derail the conversation.

 

[shel90]

Anyhoo, I am in Arizona right now on a vacation. I read some of the posts in this thread and will have to catch up after several posts that are dang long.

Just wanted you guys to know that I will be catching up in this thread, and I am physically tired of this:

YouTube - rebirth

So yea, I will be posting a lot less. I am sure the few posters that are addressed in this thread is relieved about this piece of news.

Edit: Jillio; I think in that video I pretty much interpreted your entire first post.... all within 27 seconds.

I will not be thrilled!

 

[drphil]

Is the label" audist" bandied around to " quiet some opponent" who "disagrees with the current perceived dogma"? Sure "seems " that way.

Is that the same Harlan Lane who wrote in the book:A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD . DawnSignPress, 1996 CHAPTER 13/14 about the Hearing community plans to eradicate the Deaf using ENT doctors? Why did he tell the world about this "secret plan"? How many persons actually believe this-today?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[Frisky Feline]

Anyhoo, I am in Arizona right now on a vacation. I read some of the posts in this thread and will have to catch up after several posts that are dang long.

Just wanted you guys to know that I will be catching up in this thread, and I am physically tired of this:

YouTube - rebirth

So yea, I will be posting a lot less. I am sure the few posters that are addressed in this thread is relieved about this piece of news.

Edit: Jillio; I think in that video I pretty much interpreted your entire first post.... all within 27 seconds.

yeah 27 seconds, it is pretty clear. I wouldn't be relieved about the bold part.

 

[posts from hell]

First, I do think Deaf Culture exists and thrives. I also think there may be a deaf ethnicity that applies to a very distinct and defined group of American Deaf of Deaf. And I don't think my Culturally Deaf daughter, who is Chinese, born in China, and has no genetic markers for deafness or connection with the founding Deaf families in America, is Ethnically Deaf and no amount of your gut feeling is going to change that based on what the concept of ethnicity means: it must include heritage or origin.

You would have to conduct a background check and genetic lab tests to "sense" someone's ethnicity, I don't believe you can sniff that out online.

That is the problem. People being hell-bent on ONE definition of a term then pounding it over and over and over and over and over. Words in the English language has multiple definitions, ya know.

Now, look at this:
Ethnicity | Define Ethnicity at Dictionary.com

There is NOTHING in that entry that says ethnicity is REQUIRED to be genetic. The first definition uses the term relating.

Hence my video rebirth.

This discussion of definitions is so fucking stupid and does not even merit a breath but damn.

 

[GrendelQ]

That is the problem. People being hell-bent on ONE definition of a term then pounding it over and over and over and over and over. Words in the English language has multiple definitions, ya know.

Now, look at this:
Ethnicity | Define Ethnicity at Dictionary.com

There is NOTHING in that entry that says ethnicity is REQUIRED to be genetic. The first definition uses the term relating.

Hence my video rebirth.

This discussion is so fucking stupid and does not even merit a breath but damn.

"Heritage or origin" -- which I said -- does not equal "genetics." Ethnicity does not equal any one of the properties you see listed on its own, it's a combination of these properties based on heritage or origin.

Come on, PFH, I can't pick up the language, eat the food and call myself ethnically Maya, Swazi, or Thai if I wasn't connected by heredity or by growing up in an ethnically Maya, Swazi, or Thai family.

 

[posts from hell]

"Heritage or origin" -- which I said -- does not equal "genetics"

I refer you to post #87 again. Look at your statements very carefully.

I am tired of this beating around the bush bullshit - This will be my last response on the matter.

 

[GrendelQ]

I refer you to post #87 again. Look at your statements very carefully.

I am tired of this beating around the bush bullshit - This will be my last response on the matter.

You don't like that I think Flip can't determine my child's ethnicity online without knowing her background or her genetics? That's information you would need to know to determine if someone who has the customs, language, and other distinguishing commonalities that make up a Culture also has the heritage or origin of an ethnicity. That's the basis of the research that Lane conducted in proposing that there are American hereditary deaf who might be considered an ethnic group as distinguished from the broader population of Deaf who comprise Deaf Culture.

 

[KarissaMann05]

It just comes to my mind... a provoking thought, my random thought.

If someone wants to learn how to speak and listen, that would be all right. For whatever he or she have (a) reason(s) for her or his interests. Of course, it may make another people and/or relatives happy. Maybe, maybe not. Depends on various families and friends.

But if someone decides to be a Deaf person or something-- for someone's, his/her own, personal happiness that would make you unhappy because you think someone's choice would ruin your family, your friends, and you. So is, to be brutally honest, making someone stay being hearing person for their own and your own happiness would ruin someone's personal life, too. Like, is asking someone to live with unbearable struggles, so you don't have to deal with someone's personal choice that would ruin your life? Why would someone have to be like a hearing person for others' sake of happiness when there are another ways that would make someone's life and happiness better?

... Sorry, if I sound like harsh or something... I just don't understand...

 

[GrendelQ]

Stepping away from the very different ethnicity tangent and back to Jillio's original question about Deaf Culture, is there a current argument against there being a Deaf Culture in existence or has that concept of Deaf (vs. deaf) become widely accepted along with ASL becoming recognized as a language?

Deaf Culture is recognized in my neck of the woods, although perhaps that's because there's either a relatively high volume of Deaf individuals, a high level of deaf awareness in this area (or at least a willingness to accept it on the basis of shared and distinct language, customs, schools, etc. once made aware).

 

[jillio]

Its like a chess match now. I need to be aware of what I am doing, and pick my battles wisely. Deaf on Deaf fighting of all sorts should stop.
I certainly had an opinion on that, but was it worth the energy to even bother in this specific case?

There was so much hypocrisy in what he had to say. When people didn't even respond to him and he had to come and point the question out again - that was the best thing that could have happened. He will eventually learn that his questioning/approach is not accepted in general.

Thats the approach I am taking now especially after taking the Alice Shrugged workshop and thinking about the grand picture.

Yes, it does need to stop. I don't want to see a close knit community become divided just because a few feel the need to defend a desenter. Let the desenter fend for himself. To jump to his defense is preventing him from learning that which could be beneficial.

 

[KarissaMann05]

No, ma'am, I'm not talked about ethnicity or Deaf Culture or anything. I am talked about someone's personal happiness... for matters of his or her choice to make. That is why some D/deaf people come to Deaf Culture or not, so if someone goes and be happy, someone else will be sad. But if someone stays and be sad, someone else will be happy.

That is a point.

 

[jillio]

this may be off the point but it still relates with "deaf culture". Over the years, I have been around between hearing, and deaf issue. Since I went to gally, and there were some oral deal kids or hoh, ( of course some of them are real cool) seem to learn so much about deaf culture. That is cool for me. One thing is that I learn something about HOH and oral deaf people that is their first favorite question, it seems so was that "oh you can hear some? with HAs?" with their frowning facial expressions. At first, I was sort of startle by their questions because it was all new to me. They are puzzle as to why I am an ASL user yet, and I use HAs. I was like, " yeah ?" While other deaf people who are the same as i do , and they don't bother to ask what HOH or oral deaf people ask a first very same question. That's how I would knew if they ask about "can you hear?" then they are learning about the deaf culture. Or they tend to tell me what do they mean or tell me what sentences mean when I did not ask for it because they saw my language that seems to be limiting to them when they thought I wouldnt understand while people with solid deaf culture that they wouldn't bother to, because they know I understand, no matter what if my english is not the same as them, and still understand them without asking " what do you mean by that?" They also know if some of us may not understand then will ask for a specfic question, that does not mean i didn;t understand the whole, just some words that can be trick. I got use like this with hearing people but now HOH or oral deaf people too. Not with the people with soild of the deaf culture.
It is interesting for me to see that is obvious about people with no experience of deaf culture. If they are willing to learn about the deaf culture then that's great because they ARE in the deaf culture as long as they are interested in learning about it. Same thing for me to learn more from HOH and oral deaf people everyday. I have pretty familiar with hearing people that i grew up and live with. But HOH and oral deaf people are pretty different than hearing people because of their between hearing world and deaf world. So I would know anyone who have deaf culture that I don't need to ask and go flow with the conversation from there.

It is not off the track at all. I would venture a bet that the deaf and HOH that ask you that question are the ones that were raised in a hearing family, with no exposure to the Culture, and either educated mainstream or oral school. There is a reason they chose Gally for college. They just need time to figure it all out and understand that everything they were taught about their deafness growing up, although well intentioned, was not exactly accurate.

 

[jillio]

First, I do think Deaf Culture exists and thrives. I also think there may be a deaf ethnicity that applies to a very distinct and defined group of American Deaf of Deaf. And I don't think my Culturally Deaf daughter, who is Chinese, born in China, and has no genetic markers for deafness or connection with the founding Deaf families in America, is Ethnically Deaf and no amount of your gut feeling is going to change that based on what the concept of ethnicity means: it must include heritage or origin.

I'm no expert on Lane's writings, some of which I've read. Although I don't share quite a few of his opinions and conclusions, I respect some of Lane's research in some cases, abhor the lack of research in other cases, but always enjoy getting to know his thinking. I'm not disagreeing with you because you are deaf, I'm disagreeing with you because your 'facts' are wrong and your logic is faulty, and you are just being nasty by throwing around the audist label and making what you call "assumpations" about what I've read to cover that.

If you had read Lane's latest book, you would see that he has made a very clear distinction between various deaf people, identifying a group of American Deaf who have benefitted from "ancestral transmission" as sharing some of the properties that are demonstrated by certain ethnic groups. In asking if these hereditary Deaf might be considered an ethnic group, he is referring very specifically to their hereditary connections, as people born deaf of deaf tracing back to the founding Deaf families. His data is here. He states that the central issue in determining ethnicity is ancestry.




Where do you see that?



You would have to conduct a background check and genetic lab tests to "sense" someone's ethnicity, I don't believe you can sniff that out online.

Children without a great command of discourse often do what you've just done (I ask you not to react emotionally by labeling me as audist for disagreeing with you. You then say I'm emotional for calling you on your objectionable and emotional behavior? ) Repeatedly throwing "audist" at me without any basis for doing so is an emotional, irresponsible, and childish response.

Since you obviously can't handle an adult discussion of the nature of ethnicity and culture, I'll put this in terms that are more your speed, using the same construction you've used with me above: Isn't your premise an example of stupidity? (Mind you, I'm not telling you to stop being stupid, just asking if your thinking is stupid). Oh, and please don't let that question derail the conversation.

I don't know about that one. My son is genetically Jewish/AfricanAmerican/Irish. He doesn't carry genetic markers for deafness. But because I firmly assert that ethnicity is nothing more than genetics unless culture is included in the definition, I would say he is most definately ethnically Deaf. That is the culture that guides his life and the one within which he lives. The culture's values are his values. Deaf cultural beliefs determine for him what is important in his life. I don't see how one can consider their ethnicity (blood) to be a determining factor in the way they live (in an ethnically determined way) if one does not live within, and practice, the values, beliefs, and traditions of the culture connected to that genetic disposition.

Would you consider your child to be ethnically Chinese, since that is her bloodline, but not her culture?

 

[jillio]

Stepping away from the very different ethnicity tangent and back to Jillio's original question about Deaf Culture, is there a current argument against there being a Deaf Culture in existence or has that concept of Deaf (vs. deaf) become widely accepted along with ASL becoming recognized as a language?

Deaf Culture is recognized in my neck of the woods, although perhaps that's because there's either a relatively high volume of Deaf individuals, a high level of deaf awareness in this area (or at least a willingness to accept it on the basis of shared and distinct language, customs, schools, etc. once made aware).

Unfortunately, yes, there is still an argument; some of which you see played out in this forum. There are also those that do not recognize ASL as a language in and of itself, even though it was proven to be in the 1960's by meeting all linguistic criteria. Deaf Culture meets the criteria to be considered a separate culture, but that doesn't mean that all will give the expertise that proves it respect and credibility. They believe they know more in their own little limited way.

 

[naisho]

The problem is with the ethnicity definition is the structural and the legal definition.. the two are not the same thing. This is why this whole can of worms keeps exploding.

Our professional lives with the law, businesses, industries tend to stick with the legal definition.

Our social lives are what we personally define ourselves as, and have others identify ourselves as, thereby the structural definition.

I think it can get confusing when folks understand the Deaf want the structural definition ingrained in popular society, and I believe that a Deaf, gay, Nazi, and so on, they can socially identify themselves what they want, however the argument I've been trying to say is that this is not enough to change the legal definition for the time being. It has a lot of work to do, and a big part of it is changing the way education is taught.

 

[jillio]

The problem is with the ethnicity definition is the structural and the legal definition.. the two are not the same thing. This is why this whole can of worms keeps exploding.

Our professional lives with the law, businesses, industries tend to stick with the legal definition.

Our social lives are what we personally define ourselves as, and have others identify ourselves as, thereby the structural definition.

I think it can get confusing when folks understand the Deaf want the structural definition ingrained in popular society, and I believe that a Deaf, gay, Nazi, and so on, they can socially identify themselves what they want, however the argument I've been trying to say is that this is not enough to change the legal definition for the time being. It has a lot of work to do, and a big part of it is changing the way education is taught.

True. However, it is generally, in any culture, the sociologic definition which is accepted, in practice, by the majority; with the legal definition limited to only that which concerns legality. And the legal definition is constantly challanged in the courts based on the more accepted sociologic, applied definition.

 

[flip]

First, I do think Deaf Culture exists and thrives. I also think there may be a deaf ethnicity that applies to a very distinct and defined group of American Deaf of Deaf. And I don't think my Culturally Deaf daughter, who is Chinese, born in China, and has no genetic markers for deafness or connection with the founding Deaf families in America, is Ethnically Deaf and no amount of your gut feeling is going to change that based on what the concept of ethnicity means: it must include heritage or origin.

I'm no expert on Lane's writings, some of which I've read. Although I don't share quite a few of his opinions and conclusions, I respect some of Lane's research in some cases, abhor the lack of research in other cases, but always enjoy getting to know his thinking. I'm not disagreeing with you because you are deaf, I'm disagreeing with you because your 'facts' are wrong and your logic is faulty, and you are just being nasty by throwing around the audist label and making what you call "assumpations" about what I've read to cover that.

If you had read Lane's latest book, you would see that he has made a very clear distinction between various deaf people, identifying a group of American Deaf who have benefitted from "ancestral transmission" as sharing some of the properties that are demonstrated by certain ethnic groups. In asking if these hereditary Deaf might be considered an ethnic group, he is referring very specifically to their hereditary connections, as people born deaf of deaf tracing back to the founding Deaf families. His data is here. He states that the central issue in determining ethnicity is ancestry.




Where do you see that?



You would have to conduct a background check and genetic lab tests to "sense" someone's ethnicity, I don't believe you can sniff that out online.

Children without a great command of discourse often do what you've just done (I ask you not to react emotionally by labeling me as audist for disagreeing with you. You then say I'm emotional for calling you on your objectionable and emotional behavior? ) Repeatedly throwing "audist" at me without any basis for doing so is an emotional, irresponsible, and childish response.

Since you obviously can't handle an adult discussion of the nature of ethnicity and culture, I'll put this in terms that are more your speed, using the same construction you've used with me above: Isn't your premise an example of stupidity? (Mind you, I'm not telling you to stop being stupid, just asking if your thinking is stupid). Oh, and please don't let that question derail the conversation.

Read the book from Lane, and you will find that Lane disagree with you. The link you posted to the database with deaf ancestry, does not support your idea that Lane limits ethnicity to the people in that database. Notice the name of the database:"Deaf Ethnicity and Ancestry".

You are just showing everyone here how you make up facts that fit your views, and then repeats them, even if they are false. The question is, why you do this. The OP perhaps have some answers.

More from Lane: "The Deaf-World does pass its norms, knowledge, language, and values from one generation to the next: first through socialization of the child by Deaf adults (parent or other) and second through peer socialization. Here, however, there is a significant difference from other ethnic groups: For many Deaf children, socialization into Deaf culture starts late, usually when the Deaf child meets other Deaf children in school (Johnson & Erting, 1989). Members of the Deaf-World have a great handicap and a great advantage when it comes to intergenerational continuity. The handicap is that their hearing parents usually have a different ethnocultural identity that, lacking a shared language, they cannot pass on to their children."