A hate crime....

DaveM said:
Jillio, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one:lol:

I certainly understand your point.

I disagree because I feel that government is often more of a nuisance than a help in these matters.
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If society was cabable of fixing the inequities, government wouldn't be needed to.

I can agree to disagree. No problem with that at all.:wave:
 
DaveM said:
And what of the elderly or weak? Criminals prey on easy targets.
When you say hate crimes serve to equalize that which is inherently equal, that's my problem with "government equalizing." Never a good thing.
Whenever government tries to equalize, the opposite tends to happen.
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Kinda out of the scope of the topic, but there should at least be some regulation or checks in the financial market for the safety and protection of the general people.
Elliot Spitzer found the scheme the banks were playing in deregulation.
Iran was buying/building ballistic missiles using the money in those banks.
Freddie/Fanny, remember them? What would have happened if we left them do to their stuff? :hmm:
 
jillio said:
If society was cabable of fixing the inequities, government wouldn't be needed to.

I can agree to disagree. No problem with that at all.:wave:
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Sadly, growing up in Philadelphia and personally working in the poorest of poor neighborhoods much of my views come from watching neighborhoods get worse and worse. Taxpayers spend more and more, and sadly things only get worse.

What's cool is that you and I want the same outcome - tolerance, equality, and fairness. My views on how to get there a little different.

I always try to be an optimist though:lol:
 
naisho said:
Kinda out of the scope of the topic, but there should at least be some regulation or checks in the financial market for the safety and protection of the general people.
Elliot Spitzer found the scheme the banks were playing in deregulation.
Iran was buying/building ballistic missiles using the money in those banks.
Freddie/Fanny, remember them? What would have happened if we left them do to their stuff? :hmm:
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Oh naisho, just the words Fanny and Freddy can turn this post into 50 or so pages from me alone. Lol!

Don't get me started with that can of worms:lol:
 
DaveM said:
Sadly, growing up in Philadelphia and personally working in the poorest of poor neighborhoods much of my views come from watching neighborhoods get worse and worse. Taxpayers spend more and more, and sadly things only get worse.

What's cool is that you and I want the same outcome - tolerance, equality, and fairness. My views on how to get there a little different.

I always try to be an optimist though:lol:
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I try to be an optimist, but there are days that it is danged difficult when you see the ignorance and the hatred being perpetrated first hand. But hey, gotta keep hope.

Regarding the neighborhoods you referred to...throwing money at the problem is not the solution, either. The very stratification of our society has to be addressed. Just throwing money is like putting a bandaid on a festering wound. You're still gonna loose that arm.
 
Gay people who support anti-gay republicans are just like blacks who support KKK.

The gay conservative in this article is just hateful himself.
 
Foxrac said:
Gay people who support anti-gay republicans are just like blacks who support KKK.

The gay conservative in this article is just hateful himself.
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How do you feel about gay people who support pro gay conservatives?

President Obama is anti gay marriage. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage. Something to think about.

President Bill Clinton signed DOMA and DADT.

You shouldn't judge if that gay conservative is hateful.

It was the Log Cabin Republicans who took DADT to Federal court and won. That is the reason it was overturned once being ruled unconstitutional.
 
One thing I haven''t seen mentioned; this gay Conservative must not have any plans to marry. He is in the wrong boat, so to speak, if he wanted a spouse.
 
DaveM said:
How do you feel about gay people who support pro gay conservatives?

President Obama is anti gay marriage. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage. Something to think about.

President Bill Clinton signed DOMA and DADT.

You shouldn't judge if that gay conservative is hateful.

It was the Log Cabin Republicans who took DADT to Federal court and won. That is the reason it was overturned once being ruled unconstitutional.
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1) That's not what I was talking. Gay conservatives who support anti-gay republicans, for example, Bachmann, Perry, Cain, Gingrich, Santorum and Palin.

2) Obama is personally against on gay marriage so he doesn't bring up to political. He supports marriage equality at political side, not personal side.

3) DOMA passed with more than 2/3 votes from the congress so effectively override the presidential veto. Bill Clinton has no choice to allow gay to openly serve in military because the congress weren't support so they used DADT to lesser strict from pre-DADT era (complete ban and require everyone to answer if they are gay).

I don't say about gay conservatives are hateful, but they are hate to themselves because they support anti-gay republicans and gay whoever support republican is minority.

The case about DADT isn't rule yet by US Supreme Court and the congress already repealed it, also Obama signed into law.
 
DaveM said:
How do you feel about gay people who support pro gay conservatives?

President Obama is anti gay marriage. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage. Something to think about.

President Bill Clinton signed DOMA and DADT.

You shouldn't judge if that gay conservative is hateful.

It was the Log Cabin Republicans who took DADT to Federal court and won. That is the reason it was overturned once being ruled unconstitutional.
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Surely there is a GOP candidate who would fulfill everyone's desires?
Nawww, not gonna think about that. :P
 
DeafCaroline said:
What jillio is saying is that punishment for offenders against gays, prostitutes, addicts and minorities tend to be less severe because of biases against them.
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DaveM said he supported equal punishment. No more, no less.

Hate crime laws were designed to ensure they receive equal attention and justice. For example, black women getting beaten is often ignored by cops. They think it's typical ghetto behaviour. But a white woman getting beaten? They'll come to her aid, if she's not a working street girl that is.
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So how exactly does enacting a hate crime resolve that inequity?

Suppose:

1. White man beats black woman.

2. White man beats white woman.

3. Black man beats black woman.

4. Black man beats white woman.

(To keep it simple, I won't list all possible combinations with Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.)

Which one(s) is(are) hate crimes?

If people were truly equal under the eyes of the law - they'd be receiving equal attention to their cases, and be given equal priority and equal right to fair counsel. But that's not the case. Because they are marginalized by society.
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So-called hate crimes aren't going to resolve that. Suppose it's a white pimp beating a white hooker. The victim belongs to a marginalized group. Can we call that a hate crime? No? So, the hooker still won't get equal treatment, according to your description. :hmm:

It's not an issue of comparing similiar crimes and saying they are equally horrible. They're horrible no matter what, the issue is the discrepancy in justice between them.
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Then we should be working on enforcing the equitable use of current laws and adjudication rather than making up new laws that themselves will not be equally applied.
 
deafskeptic said:
Discrepancy is the key word there. There's a reason why many serial killers go after prostitutes instead of socialites.
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There are several reasons, not the least of which is accessibility of the victim and crime scene.

I doubt that the serial killer cares about the equality of justice or not for the victim.
 
jillio said:
:ty: He is contradicting himself.
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Not at all.

Making up new laws that apply to limited groups is NOT the way to equalize justice. That's ignoring and avoiding dealing with the real problems of the courts.

If the juries and judges are biased, how is tacking on hate crime laws help the victim? If they are truly as biased as you say, then they will just decide "not guilty" on the charges of the hate crimes, and we're back to square one.
 
Jiro said:
That's koko but I believe DaveM is an intelligent individual and he can be reasoned with so he just simply needs a guidance in understanding this complex issue.
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Sigh . . . It seems so rude to talk about another ADers as though they weren't present.

Like how "able" people talk about "disabled" people in the third person as though they weren't present.
 
Reba said:
Not at all.

Making up new laws that apply to limited groups is NOT the way to equalize justice. That's ignoring and avoiding dealing with the real problems of the courts.

If the juries and judges are biased, how is tacking on hate crime laws help the victim? If they are truly as biased as you say, then they will just decide "not guilty" on the charges of the hate crimes, and we're back to square one.
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Then you tell me, if laws insuring equal justice for all populations in this country are not in place, how do we achieve equal justice under the law. Even with hate crime laws, we don't have equal justice under the law for all people in this country. So tell me, how do we achieve that? How do we insure that a GLTD youth who was beated with a ball bat for no other reason that the fact that he was gay receive justice in proportion to the pure hatred that motivated the crime?
 
Foxrac said:
Gay people who support anti-gay republicans are just like blacks who support KKK.

The gay conservative in this article is just hateful himself.
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Well, there's a difference between being anti-gay and being anti-marriage for gays.

One can support a Republican political party even if they don't agree with all of its platforms.
 
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