Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[shel90]

Kalista, it is alright to be against oralism because it failed you and mostly because it was/is a failure for most who experienced it BUT don't be against/hate, etc the people who went thru it successfully. See the difference? This is what Deafhood demands of us.

Maybe Kalista was saying she is against the philososphy and the people who work in the field of oral deaf education who tell lies about ASL to the public not the people who were raised in it. If Kalista was against the people who were raised in it, then that would mean she is against me but she is not.

 

[jillio]

I have, and having raised a child with a cochlear implant, which you have not, and having spent the better part of my adult life interacting with deaf people with cochlear implants, again which you have not: I can clearly and unequivocably say that you are full of crap.

Here is, your assumption:

"Inherent in this model is the automatic assumption that the difference is substandard, and treatment is focused on remediation of the physical pathology to the neglect of the psycho-social implications of disability. In other words, to reduce it to the case of a CI, a child is implanted, has had the pathological condition of deafness treated through medical intervention, and therefore, treatment is done. It fails to account for all of the enviromental factors that bear directly on an ability to function within a society."

Having met hundreds of parents and having made the cochlear implant decision myself---your "automatic assumption" is wrong. It is simplistic, narrow and incomplete as it fails to take into consideration that the cochlear implant is but one of many decisions parents make towards raising a child who can and does indeed function within a society.

Just like your comments about the Let Them Hear foundation a few weeks back (you remeber how badly that went for you): you once again have demonstrated that do not know what you are talking about, but are driven by your agenda. Instead of living in your little anti-ci world, you need to broaden your horizons and spend some time actually listening to those who have chosen the cochlear implant for their child instead of fighting with them.

You might actually learn that we are raising children, wonderful, individual children who are active participants in their families and communities and not "models".

Your whole post simply reaffirms the fact that you have no idea what you are taliking about when it comes to societal attitudes and perspectives, nor about the various models usedx to define disability within the professional community and how those models influence the majority.

And you are worng...I interact with deaf individuals with Cochlear implants on a daily basis, and have for any number of years. The difference is, rick, I don't limit my association to just those CI users that are oral only, but expand my associations to include the non implanted oral deaf, the non implanted signing deaf, and the implanted signing deaf. You would do well to expand your associations, as well. You choose however, to limit your associations to that which will reinforce your narrow minded perspective, and that is quite obvious in every post you make.

That is not my assumption, that is the assumption of a much researched and applied medical model of disability. Once again, educate yourself, and you will be able to productively engage in a duscussion. As it stands at this point, you are attempting to discuss from a perspective of ignorance. This is no more evident than in your statemtn that children are not models. No where has than been stated, not has it been implied. We are talking about models as applied to schools of thought and all of the implications associated with such. Really, you have no idea what you are talking about here.

 

[shel90]

I have, and having raised a child with a cochlear implant, which you have not, and having spent the better part of my adult life interacting with deaf people with cochlear implants, again which you have not: I can clearly and unequivocably say that you are full of crap.

Here is, your assumption:

"Inherent in this model is the automatic assumption that the difference is substandard, and treatment is focused on remediation of the physical pathology to the neglect of the psycho-social implications of disability. In other words, to reduce it to the case of a CI, a child is implanted, has had the pathological condition of deafness treated through medical intervention, and therefore, treatment is done. It fails to account for all of the enviromental factors that bear directly on an ability to function within a society."

Having met hundreds of parents and having made the cochlear implant decision myself---your "automatic assumption" is wrong. It is simplistic, narrow and incomplete as it fails to take into consideration that the cochlear implant is but one of many decisions parents make towards raising a child who can and does indeed function within a society.

Just like your comments about the Let Them Hear foundation a few weeks back (you remeber how badly that went for you): you once again have demonstrated that do not know what you are talking about, but are driven by your agenda. Instead of living in your little anti-ci world, you need to broaden your horizons and spend some time actually listening to those who have chosen the cochlear implant for their child instead of fighting with them.

You might actually learn that we are raising children, wonderful, individual children who are active participants in their families and communities and not "models".

Do u also meet and interact with parents who have decided not to implant their children? Or those Deaf parents of deaf kids? Do u interact with them? If so, great...If not, why not?

 

[Kalista]

Do u also meet and interact with parents who have decided not to implant their children? Or those Deaf parents of deaf kids? Do u interact with them? If so, great...If not, why not?

You make excellent point. I love your questions.

 

[shel90]

You make excellent point. I love your questions.

Thanks!

Too often, in my field, I encounter parents saying that they prefer their deaf kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf kids. It is like the signing deaf kids arent good enough or something? I really dont understand that reasoning .

It is like they are scared that we will give them the ASL disease! LOL!

 

[jillio]

Thanks!

Too often, in my field, I encounter parents saying that they prefer their deaf kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf kids. It is like the signing deaf kids arent good enough or something? I really dont understand that reasoning .

It is like they are scared that we will give them the ASL disease! LOL!

Yeppers. If they don't come face to face with signing deaf, they can ignore their existence, and pretend that all deaf are oral. Helps them believe they are doing the right thing.

 

[shel90]

Yeppers. If they don't come face to face with signing deaf, they can ignore their existence, and pretend that all deaf are oral. Helps them believe they are doing the right thing.

Parents who do that are just plain cruel and I am not afraid to say it.

 

[jillio]

Parents who do that are just plain cruel and I am not afraid to say it.

**nodding agreement**
They let their own fears and insecurities get in the way of their responsibilities.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

Parents who do that are just plain cruel and I am not afraid to say it.

I agree...

 

[Angel]

Shel? Do you remember that thread you created a couple of months ago? http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/41551-we-need-change.html then you asked in another thread why some Aders are getting upset at some of the posts, then this should answered your question of why, I'm not here to put you down or anyone, but lately I'm starting to get turn off by some of the comments that are being made in several threads lately, one is the people's attitude, the lack of supports, criticism and judging other parent's decisions, and when someone created a thread asking a question related to their deaf child's education or CI etc, it turn into bashing or arguments going back and fourth. I hardly see the hearing parents of deaf children with CI coming in and posting in AD for quite awhile now..Maybe I'm starting to feel sorry for them, I dunno but I don't like what I'm seeing lately and that may be another reason why you don't see me posting in these CI threads as much as I used to. I miss hearing their children's stories, and most of all I miss the support we used to have here in Alldeaf. but lately it's not there anymore..

What I'm trying to say here is we all are different, we raise our children different, no family or parents are the same. *I* think we should give everyone a chance to let them raise their children the way they see fit, and let them be...There's nothing wrong with agree to disagree but this is not what I'm seeing lately...

 

[vallee]

Shel? Do you remember that thread you created a couple of months ago? http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/41551-we-need-change.html then you asked in another thread why some Aders are getting upset at some of the posts, then this should answered your question of why, I'm not here to put you down or anyone, but lately I'm starting to get turn off by some of the comments that are being made in several threads lately, one is the people's attitude, the lack of supports, criticism and judging other parent's decisions, and when someone created a thread asking a question related to their deaf child's education or CI etc, it turn into bashing or arguments going back and fourth. I hardly see the hearing parents of deaf children with CI coming in and posting in AD for quite awhile now..Maybe I'm starting to feel sorry for them, I dunno but I don't like what I'm seeing lately and that may be another reason why you don't see me posting in these CI threads as much as I used to. I miss hearing their children's stories, and most of all I miss the support we used to have here in Alldeaf. but lately it's not there anymore..

What I'm trying to say here is we all are different, we raise our children different, no family or parents are the same. *I* think we should give everyone a chance to let them raise their children the way they see fit, and let them be...There's nothing wrong with agree to disagree but this is not what I'm seeing lately...

I read alot of the CI kids blogs. I also see alot of them on deafread . They are all growing so fast. Drew's mom was picked 100 best blogs.

I agree with your comments.

 

[Buffalo]

You might actually learn that we are raising children, wonderful, individual children who are active participants in their families and communities and not "models".

Then how come I read of She90's account of CI people who feel greatly relieved when they learn sign language at the deaf club ???? That tells me that not all CI people really benefit 100% from CI.

Shel90 also complained of CI kids who was transferred to her school because they were behind in their schooling.

Jillio told us about one of her son's roommate that has CI but he hears just enviromental sounds. Shel90 even told us of one kid whose CI is not working at all.

CI is not the miracle you would like to make it out to be.

 

[vallee]

Then how come I read of She90's account of CI people who feel greatly relieved when they learn sign language at the deaf club ???? That tells me that not all CI people really benefit 100% from CI.

Shel90 also complained of CI kids who was transferred to her school because they were behind in their schooling.

Jillio told us about one of her son's roommate that has CI but he hears just enviromental sounds. Shel90 even told us of one kid whose CI is not working at all.

CI is not the miracle you would like to make it out to be.

Read Angel posting, were are the CI parents? We have one teacher and one other person, that is not the majority. The parents has been run out of alldeaf. That is okay, the parents of CI children are doing okay, they are out there living their lives as a family. Some are using ASL, some are oral deaf, some are just finding their ways. They should be encouraged not bashed.

As for the adult who wear CIs, we are out there in too. I am doing great. Some are not. I talked to a group of 11 CIers last night and they are doing wonderful too. Some of us use ASL, some oral, some just learing new ways to communicate. but we are also part of the Deaf Community. Because in the words of my dear friend, Abbie, we sleep in silent too.

 

[Cheri]

Thanks!

Too often, in my field, I encounter parents saying that they prefer their deaf kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf kids. It is like the signing deaf kids arent good enough or something? I really dont understand that reasoning .

It is like they are scared that we will give them the ASL disease! LOL!

Funny how you say that since I've been a member on Ad, I encounter some deaf people like yourself who thinks that the majority generation of deaf people had failed in fact on another thread which was locked and I did not have a chance to reply to one of your post that you felt that I was offended on what Jillio stated that she had never met any deaf who had done better on communication and litacty.

And that is far from it. You don't know the majority of deaf people's experences because NO deaf is the same as another deaf their hearing loss, their residental hearing. It was so wrong to placed your judgement on them and say that children today had better or done better than the rest of the majority of the deaf in the past did. There are some deaf who had sucessful and some who did not. I applause the generation of deaf people who had went out and did their best. But you on the other hand judged those deaf poorly because of that you compared them all to the deaf children today in the bi bi program.

From what I remembered during the 1700 when ASL was taught in school they did well, but the only problem was 84 percent of those deaf had NO spoken language, all those deaf children back then were raised using ASL would enter oral education, they did not have any spoken language and oral did fail them.

Those who was never use ASL as their primary language, in most cases oral had sucess for them because they had natural spoken language at the start, than those who exposed to ASL at the begin, do you see the differences?

Bottom line is that everyone's experience is valuable as yours, not just yours alone from only from your view.

I have met a lot of deaf people who are different from each others, some of them had poorly education where a method of communication did not match them. Some of them have culture views who was raised in the Deaf Culture, on the other hand there were deaf people who had experienced with the hearing and deaf world which is an advantage that not many people have.

For instance there is no similar route that the majority of deaf people should go with.
Some deaf people have no regrets no grudge but there are some that do. We should never be ashamed of who we are and what we have become, everyone's experiences were different from each others, but no deaf is better than another deaf person.

Its time to stop comparing and judging those generation of deaf people.

 

[shel90]

Funny how you say that since I've been a member on Ad, I encounter some deaf people like yourself who thinks that the majority generation of deaf people had failed in fact on another thread which was locked and I did not have a chance to reply to one of your post that you felt that I was offended on what Jillio stated that she had never met any deaf who had done better on communication and litacty.

And that is far from it. You don't know the majority of deaf people's experences because NO deaf is the same as another deaf their hearing loss, their residental hearing. It was so wrong to placed your judgement on them and say that children today had better or done better than the rest of the majority of the deaf in the past did. There are some deaf who had sucessful and some who did not. I applause the generation of deaf people who had went out and did their best. But you on the other hand judged those deaf poorly because of that you compared them all to the deaf children today in the bi bi program.

From what I remembered during the 1700 when ASL was taught in school they did well, but the only problem was 84 percent of those deaf had NO spoken language, all those deaf children back then were raised using ASL would enter oral education, they did not have any spoken language and oral did fail them.

Those who was never use ASL as their primary language, in most cases oral had sucess for them because they had natural spoken language at the start, than those who exposed to ASL at the begin, do you see the differences?

Bottom line is that everyone's experience is valuable as yours, not just yours alone from only from your view.

I have met a lot of deaf people who are different from each others, some of them had poorly education where a method of communication did not match them. Some of them have culture views who was raised in the Deaf Culture, on the other hand there were deaf people who had experienced with the hearing and deaf world which is an advantage that not many people have.

For instance there is no similar route that the majority of deaf people should go with.
Some deaf people have no regrets no grudge but there are some that do. We should never be ashamed of who we are and what we have become, everyone's experiences were different from each others, but no deaf is better than another deaf person.

Its time to stop comparing and judging those generation of deaf people.

My goal is to make deaf education better for all future deaf kids so no deaf child is left behind. What's wrong with wanting that? I thought that was my job as a teacher. Isnt that what teachers are supposed to do?

I was always emphasizing in my experience. Never said that in everyone else's experiences.

I applaud the past generation of deaf people for overcoming their obstacles and I dont judge them. I am talking about the failure of the educational system not the deaf people themselves. If u dont understand the difference, then I am sorry. I dont accept less when it comes to the education for deaf children so that is why I want to give all deaf children all access to education and language.

Geez, my topic was about how some parents have stated they prefer their kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf only not the signing deaf kids. I think that is awful cuz signing deaf children are people too. Is that a bad thing to want those parents to meet signing deaf people too?

No, I dont know the majority of deaf people's experience but I have learned a lot in the past 10 years about educational practices. Big difference.

Again, I have always stated that U and others dont have to agree with the BiBi philosophy and I wont hold it against u so I dont understand what is the problem here. I am talking about MY opinions based on what I have seen.

If it means getting those kids to achieve the highest literacy rates as possible, u bet I will do it. I am not going to hold anyone back because others didnt have the same opportunity. So what if they end up with better literacy skills than any of us? This is about the kids not about us. Any deaf adult now has the power to improve their literacy skills cuz they are responsilbe for themselves but me as a teacher, I am responsible for those kids" literacy skills so I am going to do what it takes to give them that opportunity that myself and others didnt have.

Like I told u, I am happy that the TC program worked for u.

One last thing...I NEVER EVER say that deaf people have failed...I always say that the EDUCATIONAL system failed them. BIG difference. Pls dont twist my words.

U need to stop telling me what I have or have not experience or what I know nor dont know. U can ask but dont tell me just like I never will tell u what or what u dont experience. Just like u assumed that I never been in a mainstreamed program when I explained my experiences being in a TC program at the public school. Instead of asking u said "For sure, U weren....." I really didnt appreciate that.

If I see a program that gives everything to all deaf children regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I will believe in it more thant the other approaches. It is up to the parents but for me, it is about the kids' needs first.

U keep saying that deaf people who learn ASL first have poorer oral skills than those who learned oral. Fine, that's your experience and I will take your word for it. In my experience, I have met many ASL users who were able to develop oral language. Nope, not all but the same with those who were placed in oral only programs were unable to develop oral language.

Last of all, I have never said that any deaf is better than another. I am talking about better deaf education for the future generation of kids. If that enables them to have higher literacy skills than many of us, so what? I would be happy for them. If u dont like it, that's your opinion.

Now, I am off to go teach and I will continue to feel good about myself about my job. Nobody is gonna make me feel shitty about my job. I only care about the students when I am on the job.

Have a good day.

 

[shel90]

Shel? Do you remember that thread you created a couple of months ago? http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/41551-we-need-change.html then you asked in another thread why some Aders are getting upset at some of the posts, then this should answered your question of why, I'm not here to put you down or anyone, but lately I'm starting to get turn off by some of the comments that are being made in several threads lately, one is the people's attitude, the lack of supports, criticism and judging other parent's decisions, and when someone created a thread asking a question related to their deaf child's education or CI etc, it turn into bashing or arguments going back and fourth. I hardly see the hearing parents of deaf children with CI coming in and posting in AD for quite awhile now..Maybe I'm starting to feel sorry for them, I dunno but I don't like what I'm seeing lately and that may be another reason why you don't see me posting in these CI threads as much as I used to. I miss hearing their children's stories, and most of all I miss the support we used to have here in Alldeaf. but lately it's not there anymore..

What I'm trying to say here is we all are different, we raise our children different, no family or parents are the same. *I* think we should give everyone a chance to let them raise their children the way they see fit, and let them be...There's nothing wrong with agree to disagree but this is not what I'm seeing lately...

because I am tired of seeing so many deaf children falling behind because they werent given the visual needs that they needed.

This thread was about the decision to implant children not about letting the children struggle in an educational environment where their needs are not being met. Those two issues are different. I have nothing against parents wanting to implant their children..not my business but what I am against is that putting those children in educational environment where they recieve miniminal or no support and then they fall so far behind. Then the experts blame it on the kids for not trying hard enough. If u and others dont like what I have to say, dont. I dont really care. I am just tired of deaf kids putting in programs where they struggle and end up falling so far behind.

 

[Cheri]

I dont really care. I am just tired of deaf kids putting in programs where they struggle and end up falling so far behind.

Nobody can predict the future, what they can really do is try out a program and see how well they will adjucted, but forcing them in a ASL only program is not the answer, they will struggle with speech, in my opinion.

 

[Cheri]

On post 195 I will answer that later, I don't have much time right now, when I get time ill answer it.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I withnessed Bi-Bi children in real life and support Bi-Bi education fully over oral without sign language.

I can tell from Bi-Bi children's moviation good... They know what they really are and moviate to learn anything including speech and English. They have one hearing and one deaf teacher in class room.

I noticed that some American school for the deaf with interpreters around which we doesn't have because our teachers can sign and speak on the same time and have deaf assistance with them in class room where I grew up.

My hubby's time - no sign language in school but oral all the time... He has less moviate and busy to watch his teacher's lips to neglect his education bit. At mine - I watch what hearing teacher sign and know what she said... All hearing teachers use sign and speak on the same time that's how we learn from them. I cannot follow anyone who sign without speak. It's me. I feel comfortable when anyone use sign language with speak on the same time. At small children, hearing teacher who can sign, have deaf assistance to be with her to convince small deaf children.

I saw how Bi-Bi program is and support it fully. More and more support Bi-Bi education around Germany.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I will view video when I am home from work...