District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

Well AG Bell promotes listening and talking and mainstreaming as things that give dhh kids complete and total equality in the hearing world, instead of simply as another useful tool in the toolbox. There are some members who are pro full toolbox, but overall it does seem like AG Bell is VERY audist about how oral speech and listening skills alledgely give you access to the hearing world. Their attitude as an organization is that things like Sign and other tools are a "crutch"/barrier to acheiveing in the hearing world. They push about how wonderful and glorious it is that your child doesn't need "special needs" things..........If you don't believe me look at the languange used in ads in Volta Voices. I know that on the lists I'm on (and yes I know that ancdedote isn't the plural of data) that the oral folks will be all "yeah! Enroll wittle Smashlie into oral programs, and mainstream her! She'll be a part of the hearing world. She doesn't "need" sign. The age of Sign is "over"......and then in their next breath they start complaining "Oh we don't have anything equalivant to a 'terp! Oh we're so not totally a part of the hearing world. I've never felt like I belonged totally in the hearing world! I have few friends, I have no social life! I wish I'd learned Sign early on .....boo hoo hoo"
I totally think that ALL kids should have equal access to the curriculm. BUT, your daughter IS doing wicked well. It is NOT a matter of methodology.......it's basicly b/c your daughter is doing very well already. It would be different if she was a C student.....but she's already doing VERY well. THAT'S why we're saying that C=Print as an accomondation is overkill........it just seems like you're one of those parents who want their kids to get an edge so they can get into Harvard or something.
Oh, and jag, I wasn't talking about costs. The nursing is VITAL for a medically fragile student. Without the nursing, the student could DIE. Whereas here, it's simply "oh wittle Smashlie isn't doing wicked wicked well!" They are ALREADY doing VERY well with a notetaker. Almost ANYONE I know who's dhh would have been pleased as punch to do as well as your daughter's doing with simply a notetaker. Quit complaining...............I have hypotonia (like cerebal palsy, which in turn affects my fine motor skills) and I'm LD but I didn't get a notetaker til I was in my sophmore year of high school (and trust me.....the school acted like it had given me the gold standard)

You seem to be very resentful of something and I am not sure of what it is. I am really sorry that you have had such a hard time in school. I really do not know much about AG Bell. I have read the Volta review. I actually went to them for help when we started on this whole CART thing but they were no use to us. You mention over and over again about C-Print. We are not fighting for C-Print, we are fighting for real time captioning.
The law states that my daughter has the right to equal access to the curriulum. A notetaker is not equal access. My daughter does well in school because she is dedicated and a hard worker. She also has a mother that is a teacher and pre-teaches and post teaches what she learns in school. I think most of you would agree that a lot d/hh students have limited background information on subjects. In order for this to not happen with my children we have found different ways of helping them in this area. Our family trips were central around what the coming year themes were at school. So when they study about the government went to our state captiol. We it was mission time we went to the missions, they were assigned. When they learned about the great valley in California we took a trip to the great valley. This is why my daughter and son do overall well in school. It is not the schools that have given them an edge it their home life.
The other thing is in order for CART to be of help to a student they have to be able to read well if not it is not very helpful. So if my daughter was doing poorly in school and was not reading close to grade level, the school district would say it would not benefit her.

 

[jillio]

ACtually it wasn't really a truely unbiased thing tho. You knew bfore you called him that he was deaf so were really on the out look to hear what you wanted to hear. To be truely a fair assessment I would think that the call should have been announous and such. In other words it would have been more interesting to see if you had the same results if he had had a friend answer the phone in his name. Whatever.

I do think that the reference all the time to 'deaf' voices is rather silly. Even hearing people have different qualities to their voice. I sound like me.

Of course you sound like you, and every other deaf person sounds like them. But there are some diction issues, resonance issues, and tonal quality issues that are peculiar to a deaf/hh person's voice. And to have a friend answer in his name would have been dishonest. If you will go back and read my reply, I did not simply say pek had a "deaf voce". I conceeded that his diction was excellent, but there were two consonant with which he had problems, as well as the rounded resonance. And no, I did not go in with preconceived ideas. Trust me, pek had one of the clearest voices I've heard, and he obviously worked very hard to achieve it. But there were still tell tale signs, and I simply noticed them and pointed them out to him, as he most likely doesn't hear them himself. And this was a challenge between pek and myself. Rick already made the mistake of jumping into it and lost his bet, based not on my assessment, but on pek's admission.

 

[jillio]

If I remember correctly one of the main reasons I joined was because someone said that my daughter should learn more sign language so the school could give her an interpeter. I thought but why should my daughter change who she is to make it easier on the school.
It is not me who made it a us vs. them, it is everybody else.

But, as has already been pointed out, your daughter learning sign language would not provide a benefit tot he school, but to her.

 

[jillio]

You seem to be very resentful of something and I am not sure of what it is. I am really sorry that you have had such a hard time in school. I really do not know much about AG Bell. I have read the Volta review. I actually went to them for help when we started on this whole CART thing but they were no use to us. You mention over and over again about C-Print. We are not fighting for C-Print, we are fighting for real time captioning.
The law states that my daughter has the right to equal access to the curriulum. A notetaker is not equal access. My daughter does well in school because she is dedicated and a hard worker. She also has a mother that is a teacher and pre-teaches and post teaches what she learns in school. I think most of you would agree that a lot d/hh students have limited background information on subjects. In order for this to not happen with my children we have found different ways of helping them in this area. Our family trips were central around what the coming year themes were at school. So when they study about the government went to our state captiol. We it was mission time we went to the missions, they were assigned. When they learned about the great valley in California we took a trip to the great valley. This is why my daughter and son do overall well in school. It is not the schools that have given them an edge it their home life.
The other thing is in order for CART to be of help to a student they have to be able to read well if not it is not very helpful. So if my daughter was doing poorly in school and was not reading close to grade level, the school district would say it would not benefit her.

You confuse equal access--they consider that they have provided equal access by allowing her into a mainstream situation in the same classes that her hearing peers are in. The issue is one of reasonable accomodations, and as long as a student is doing eell, it is considered that reasonable accommodations have been given.

 

[shel90]

Why did you choose to name only Jackie and myself? Why not your pal, Jillio, who incidentally is the only one arguing with Jackie and everyone else. Why not name her?

Talking about the quote how everyone would be supportive of Jackie if she was fighting for an ASL terp instead of CART and I pointed out that it was brought up by both of u and how at the beginning, everyone was saying that her daughter should get a CART and siding with her daughter not the school district. Then I read that comment and it was like..huh? Where did that come from?

 

[rockdrummer]

Talking about the quote how everyone would be supportive of Jackie if she was fighting for an ASL terp instead of CART and I pointed out that it was brought up by both of u and how at the beginning, everyone was saying that her daughter should get a CART and siding with her daughter not the school district. Then I read that comment and it was like..huh? Where did that come from?

What's wrong with CART? Is'nt the objective to ensure the student is able to get the lesson? Why does it matter what means that is accomplished with as long as the end result is met and the student is happy.

 

[shel90]

What's wrong with CART? Is'nt the objective to ensure the student is able to get the lesson? Why does it matter what means that is accomplished with as long as the end result is met and the student is happy.

You are so right no doubt in mind that if I was fighting for interpeter, I am sure everyone would have come to my rescue good thing we do not need to be rescued.

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
__________________
Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

You confuse equal access--they consider that they have provided equal access by allowing her into a mainstream situation in the same classes that her hearing peers are in. The issue is one of reasonable accomodations, and as long as a student is doing eell, it is considered that reasonable accommodations have been given.

I do not confuse equal access. Equal access means that my daughter would have the same access as all the other students to all the information presented in class. Now since it is hard for her to hear everything especially when more then 1 person speaks at a time she does not have equal access, she cannot hear as the other students can.

I know you do not agree with me and this really is fine with. I have spoke to several TC teachers and many interpeters. There is not a sign for every spoken word. An interpeter cannot sign everything being said in a class especially when there is a class discussion where students are debating. If you want to agree with me or not, it doesn't matter because I know it is true. You are not deaf yourself, so your point doesn't matter to me. I have spoke to many deaf adults that only sign and their choice would be to have an interpeter and CART at the same time because they do miss out information when they just have an interpeter. My information is directly from deaf adults and interpeters in the school system.

 

[jillio]

What's wrong with CART? Is'nt the objective to ensure the student is able to get the lesson? Why does it matter what means that is accomplished with as long as the end result is met and the student is happy.

There is nothing wrong with CART. We use it at the university where I work. It is an excellent service. Shel or I neither one have said that there is anything wrong with CART. Re: providing access to the lessons. The only thing that was pointed out here is that as jackie reports that her daughter is maintaining an excellent gpa--above average--then the school system is going to say that they have provided access as evidenced by her grades. The point shel and I were making is that these issues need to be addressed way before high school, and the fallacy that school systems rely on to avoid providing services. And the school system's main concern is not the student's happiness. It's how to best comply with the ADA using the least amount of funding.

 

[jillio]

I do not confuse equal access. Equal access means that my daughter would have the same access as all the other students to all the information presented in class. Now since it is hard for her to hear everything especially when more then 1 person speaks at a time she does not have equal access, she cannot hear as the other students can.
And is this situation just now occuring, or hasn't it been an ongoing problem for the entire time she has been in school?

I know you do not agree with me and this really is fine with.
Never said I disagreed with you--that is the interpretation you arrived at when you got defensive over the sign issue.
I have spoke to several TC teachers and many interpeters. There is not a sign for every spoken word.
No there is not a sign for every spoken word, nor is there an English transalation for every signed concept. Nor an English translation for every Spanish word, or French word. That is why ASL is a separate language from English. However, there is a sign for every concept represented by the English word. Having taken 2 ASL classes, I would think you would have been taught that. And the issue is not word, but concept.


An interpeter cannot sign everything being said in a class especially when there is a class discussion where students are debating.
Then you haven't run across very good interpreters. An interpreter is supposed to sign all the the spoken content in a classroom, and the ambient noise, as well.
If you want to agree with me or not, it doesn't matter because I know it is true. You are not deaf yourself, so your point doesn't matter to me.
And neither are you.

I have spoke to many deaf adults that only sign and their choice would be to have an interpeter and CART at the same time because they do miss out information when they just have an interpeter.

Don't have a problem with that. I reccommend such myself, as the signing student will get concept from the interpreted classroom material in order that the CART transcript makes more sense. And school districts are usually more willing to provide CART and notetaking services along with an interpreter when they understand that the student is using their vision during class, and therefore are unable to use their vision to also take note. The problem here is that you say your daughter functions orally in class, and therefore, is free to use her vision for notetaking and for watching what is going on with the other students. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that's the way the school district sees it. And frankly, I'll say that I would say this to all parents who have placed a child in an oral placement, and then wants to complain that they aren't getting equal access. The whole point behind the oral philosophy is that speaking and hearing are the way for the deaf to become independent and to provide more opportunities. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect, as your case so clearly demonstrates. And it is not you as a person that I disagree with. It is the oral only philosophy and the harm it creates for deaf children. My problem with you is that you want to complain that your daughter is not receiving equal access, and at the same time, refuse to see how insisting that she be oral, and in an oral placement educationally, has contributed to the problems she is now experiencing.
My information is directly from deaf adults and interpeters in the school system.

My information comes from 20 years worth of discusing these issues with deaf/Deaf adults, children, and adolescents. Are the interpreters you spoke with certified? By what governing body? And if you were so willing to listen to deaf adults, why is it that you refuse to listen to what the deaf adults on this board are saying to you?

 

[jillio]

Why did you choose to name only Jackie and myself? Why not your pal, Jillio, who incidentally is the only one arguing with Jackie and everyone else. Why not name her?

oh, puleeeze rick. Get off the personal vindetta. It really is childish of you. Youa re the one that starts the ganging up exercises--can't take it when it happens to you, though.

 

[jillio]

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
__________________
Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

And if you are not bringing signing into the issue regarding equal access, then you are not providing an accurate portrayal of equal access, because CART is every bit as useful to the signing student as to the oral student. But I guess you've gotten your moment in the spotlight, and your refusal to bring sign in it shows me that your concern lies only with the oral student, and not with ALL deaf students. Kind of blows the empathetic image you are attempting to show.

 

[deafdyke]

And frankly, I'll say that I would say this to all parents who have placed a child in an oral placement, and then wants to complain that they aren't getting equal access. The whole point behind the oral philosophy is that speaking and hearing are the way for the deaf to become independent and to provide more opportunities. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect, as your case so clearly demonstrates. And it is not you as a person that I disagree with. It is the oral only philosophy and the harm it creates for deaf children. My problem with you is that you want to complain that your daughter is not receiving equal access, and at the same time, refuse to see how insisting that she be oral, and in an oral placement educationally, has contributed to the problems she is now experiencing.

YES!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SJCSue]

Gee...didnt at the begining of the thread, before Jackie came in here, we were all debating about how her daughter should be able to recieve the CART and how the public schools are terrible about providing the max services for deaf/hh students? Now, Rick and Jackie are saying that if Jackie had gotten an ASL terp, everyone would come to her support. What is that about? This is becoming a little childish here.

We were having a nice discussion about legal systems, educational policies and stuff but what is this crap about who is supporting who because this person is oral or ASL? Grow up people!

Jackie is going on my ignore list.

 

[shel90]

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
__________________
Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

I thought your comment was implying that none of us was supportive of your daughter's right to get a CART which was why I was like "whoa..wait a min.." Ok got it.

 

[rockdrummer]

There is nothing wrong with CART. We use it at the university where I work. It is an excellent service. Shel or I neither one have said that there is anything wrong with CART. Re: providing access to the lessons. The only thing that was pointed out here is that as jackie reports that her daughter is maintaining an excellent gpa--above average--then the school system is going to say that they have provided access as evidenced by her grades. The point shel and I were making is that these issues need to be addressed way before high school, and the fallacy that school systems rely on to avoid providing services. And the school system's main concern is not the student's happiness. It's how to best comply with the ADA using the least amount of funding.

Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.

 

[jillio]

Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.

Of course I am serious. It happens all the time to justify not providing additional services.

 

[rockdrummer]

Of course I am serious. It happens all the time to justify not providing additional services.

Sounds like a law suit to me... oh... wait a minute... what thread am I in again.

 

[jillio]

Sounds like a law suit to me... oh... wait a minute... what thread am I in again.

It is all about legal interpretation. If the deaf child is performing at an academic level that allows her to achieve an above average gpa, then she obviously has access to the curriculum. Otherwise, she would be failing. And an above average gpa means that she is achieving at a standard that surpasses many of thehearing students in the same school. Didn't say it was right, but only that it happens all the time, and it is a direct result of the language ambiguities in the ADA. And who was the ADA written by--legal experts. You don'tthink those ambiguities are in there on purpose?