Why my wife and I want our children to hear and speak a little.

[Mookie]

Forcing the hearing people to learn sign language is like forcing the world to stop using stairs because you want everybody to use ramps.

It makes no sense.

Dear Sweetmind, you missed my point completely. Have you clicked on the link in the first post? Read through that. I imagine if they had some oral communications skills, they'd be doing better.

Glinuxman, hearing kids being fascinated with sign language is just that - a fascination.

Nice try, Fragmenter...

You are not fooling me since I also graduated from public high school almost two decades ago. I was only a deaf student who relied on sign language interpreters with five HH students in the small city with three high schools.

If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree

I have read the article a decade ago that the deaf students in mainstreaming schools have low points for Math skills and high points for English skills. Other deaf students have high points for math skills and low point for English skills. Fragmenter, tell me which group has the high points for being socializing in the school?

The answer is deaf school. How? Any deaf student can easily communicate with other students, teachers, counselors, school administrators and the whole community people nearby the deaf school.

I wish I am still in high school with fancy advanced technologies that would pull up my GPA. Moreover, I will be ready for the university with my professional writing skills. Isn’t that kewl to chat any deaf peep in any deaf school via the videophone?

There is nothing wrong with ASL method. I wonder if any hearie who refuses to learn ASL is a part of audism? You can lead your horse to the water, but you can not force it to drink…..

Are you following Jane Fernandes example?

 

[gnulinuxman]

Nice try, Fragmenter...

You are not fooling me since I also graduated from public high school almost two decades ago. I was only a deaf student who relied on sign language interpreters with five HH students in the small city with three high schools.

If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree

An excellent point.

I have read the article a decade ago that the deaf students in mainstreaming schools have low points for Math skills and high points for English skills. Other deaf students have high points for math skills and low point for English skills. Fragmenter, tell me which group has the high points for being socializing in the school?

Very interesting. I didn't know that.

The answer is deaf school. How? Any deaf student can easily communicate with other students, teachers, counselors, school administrators and the whole community people nearby the deaf school.

Yes, deaf children have special needs, just like autistic children have special needs, dyslexic children have special needs.... Why do many "normal" people ignore deaf children's special needs?

I wish I am still in high school with fancy advanced technologies that would pull up my GPA. Moreover, I will be ready for the university with my professional writing skills. Isn’t that kewl to chat any deaf peep in any deaf school via the videophone?

Your writing skills are very good, Mookie. Proof that ASL doesn't ruin English skills!

There is nothing wrong with ASL method. I wonder if any hearie who refuses to learn ASL is a part of audism? You can lead your horse to the water, but you can not force it to drink…..

You got it! Hearies who refuse to learn to sign could very well be considered an audist. I'm just glad I'm not!

Are you following Jane Fernandes example?

DOWN WITH JANE!!

 

[Mookie]

Of course we have weighted everything; it's my son, not a test lab rat.

Yeah, which do you prefer to put a test lab rat?

1. Oral School
2. ASL School
3. Mainstreaming School
4. Your Homeschool
5. Private (Religious) School
6. Clown College

Nobody is perfect.

 

[gnulinuxman]

 

[jazzy]

Nice try, Fragmenter...

You are not fooling me since I also graduated from public high school almost two decades ago. I was only a deaf student who relied on sign language interpreters with five HH students in the small city with three high schools.

If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree

I have read the article a decade ago that the deaf students in mainstreaming schools have low points for Math skills and high points for English skills. Other deaf students have high points for math skills and low point for English skills. Fragmenter, tell me which group has the high points for being socializing in the school?

The answer is deaf school. How? Any deaf student can easily communicate with other students, teachers, counselors, school administrators and the whole community people nearby the deaf school.

I wish I am still in high school with fancy advanced technologies that would pull up my GPA. Moreover, I will be ready for the university with my professional writing skills. Isn’t that kewl to chat any deaf peep in any deaf school via the videophone?

There is nothing wrong with ASL method. I wonder if any hearie who refuses to learn ASL is a part of audism? You can lead your horse to the water, but you can not force it to drink…..

Are you following Jane Fernandes example?

Have u been to deaf school? I have and I hate it !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Deaf school is not for everyone.

 

[Fragmenter]

Nice try, Fragmenter...

You are not fooling me since I also graduated from public high school almost two decades ago. I was only a deaf student who relied on sign language interpreters with five HH students in the small city with three high schools.

If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree

I'm sorry but you are mistaken; I am not trying to fool anyone nor saying that oralism is the perfect solution.

We, and a surprising amount of deaf people, feel that the oral method is inevitable since the modern world is demanding more and more from even the average hearing person! Just imagine the future.

I have personally witnessed my wife conversing with hearing people with tight lips, strong accents, unkempt beard, fast speech and Shakespearian english to an understandable degree, so your above argument is invalid. Granted, they were more often than not a one on one conversations. Let me use the infamous, "we can do anything but hear" against your argument.

I have read the article a decade ago that the deaf students in mainstreaming schools have low points for Math skills and high points for English skills. Other deaf students have high points for math skills and low point for English skills. Fragmenter, tell me which group has the high points for being socializing in the school?

The answer is deaf school. How? Any deaf student can easily communicate with other students, teachers, counselors, school administrators and the whole community people nearby the deaf school.

That's a cop out. Please go back to post #1 in this thread. Strong mathematic background won't help a deaf person in the world unless you're inventing new formulas, trying to communicate with unknown aliens in outer space through numbers OR be able to communicate with the hearing people. The point of oralism is to be able to literally communicate with the hearing people to boost your opportunies. Also, if the hearing people can have a great understanding of the English language AND Mathematics, why not us? After hanging up our superhero costumes at the end of the day, we can simply go back to our deaf world. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

I wish I am still in high school with fancy advanced technologies that would pull up my GPA. Moreover, I will be ready for the university with my professional writing skills. Isn’t that kewl to chat any deaf peep in any deaf school via the videophone?

Fancy advanced technologies? Hearing aids? Cochlear implants? Sounds like it to me. And, yes, VP rules.

There is nothing wrong with ASL method. I wonder if any hearie who refuses to learn ASL is a part of audism? You can lead your horse to the water, but you can not force it to drink…..

I agree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the ASL method... but I reckon I'd have a different career if I could communicate with the hearing without interpreters, pen and paper or gestures.

Let me use this against your horse & water analogy: You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Our kids are practically newborns so they have a great head start.

Are you following Jane Fernandes example?

Why not? This is the future; keep up with the modern world or be left behind in a cloud of its dust. Your future, your choice.

 

[Fragmenter]

Yeah, which do you prefer to put a test lab rat?

1. Oral School
2. ASL School
3. Mainstreaming School
4. Your Homeschool
5. Private (Religious) School
6. Clown College

Nobody is perfect.

We are positioning them to have the most opportunies possible in any occupation. Don't worry, Mookie; leave the burden of worrying to us

 

[Mookie]

I'm sorry but you are mistaken; I am not trying to fool anyone nor saying that oralism is the perfect solution.

Not always. Do you have evidence that the oralism method is the perfect answer?

We, and a surprising amount of deaf people, feel that the oral method is inevitable since the modern world is demanding more and more from even the average hearing person! Just imagine the future.

Can you provide the proof that rate of the oralism students have complete goals for their professional careers? I have seen some of them have not made to their goals. Same results to the ASL individuals.

You only show your opinion, not facts. Correct me if I am wrong. However, you may waste your time to debate over this tough issue.

Deaf Soceity has enough whole technologies and ASL interpreters (Cued-speech interpreters for your kid).

I have personally witnessed my wife conversing with hearing people with tight lips, strong accents, unkempt beard, fast speech and Shakespearian english to an understandable degree, so your above argument is invalid. Granted, they were more often than not a one on one conversations. Let me use the infamous, "we can do anything but hear" against your argument.

My wife has moderate hearing loss and is able to carry conversations with anybody over the phone with her hearing aids. Our children simply has role models from each worlds to learn directly from

Fragmenter, please do not be a bullshit artist. My wife is also HH. I am not buying your wife’s answers. I am sure that your wife is most likely hearie but not too close to the range of HH.

I bet you have might not understand strange people speaking first time. Nice try, buddy.

My university classmates had hard time to understand the Egyptian professor teaching in business law because of his strong accent. My ASL terps had hard time to understand him, too. Let see if she can pass the course without taking notes from the classmates and interpreters. I will ask her for the pop quiz. Would you accept the challenge?

I have always asked my HH high school buddies to see if they could hear at all. They replied, “Not always”.

That's a cop out. Please go back to post #1 in this thread. Strong mathematic background won't help a deaf person in the world unless you're inventing new formulas, trying to communicate with unknown aliens in outer space through numbers OR be able to communicate with the hearing people. The point of oralism is to be able to literally communicate with the hearing people to boost your opportunies. Also, if the hearing people can have a great understanding of the English language AND Mathematics, why not us? After hanging up our superhero costumes at the end of the day, we can simply go back to our deaf world. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Do you know how to balance the checkbook?

Nope, it is not cop out. I believe that you have researched insufficient info about the results of achieving education between oralism school and ASL school.

Fancy advanced technologies? Hearing aids? Cochlear implants? Sounds like it to me. And, yes, VP rules.

I am not talking about HA or CI. You are misunderstood completely. The advanced technologies are computers and gadgets. What in the world do you think CI students can live without computers? Yeah right…

I agree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the ASL method... but I reckon I'd have a different career if I could communicate with the hearing without interpreters, pen and paper or gestures.

Don’t you have videophone for offices? Would your employers accept you as a white-collar executive? Of course, the firm will write for tax purposes.

Naturally, I do have the videophone in my cubical. I do have Email that my co-workers needs to communicate me. I do have the pager that the vendors would be contacting me for the ready delivery. Therefore, there is no barrier communication. What makes you think? Of course, I will be ready for the next promotion. Ah, yes…welcome to the ADA era.

Let me use this against your horse & water analogy: You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Our kids are practically newborns so they have a great head start.

I have told my ex boss that we cannot teach an old dog new tricks. He corrected me that any inexperienced employee can do it. He is right. What about your mom? Does Greema know how to cut and paste the digital pix on the computer?

Why not? This is the future; keep up with the modern world or be left behind in a cloud of its dust. Your future, your choice.

Yep, it is your right to make the right decision for your kids.

 

[R2D2]

Nice try, Fragmenter...


If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree

I was orally mainstreamed growing up and the above examples aren't really a problem because I simply ask such people to repeat what they've said, slow down or clarify what they mean, which in most cases they are very happy to do. It's not a big deal.

There are lots of Chinese people around where I live so I'm used to foreign accents. Hearing people from English speaking backgrounds have the same problem. As a matter of fact I seem to attract Chinese people in workplaces because I am much more patient with them than hearing English speaking people and they are very happy to repeat what they've said to me and we usually get there. They are so used to everyone not understanding them, let alone deaf people that they are grateful for attention.

In my experience doctors of philosophy don't go around speaking in a language that people cannot understand. They only sound nonsensical in their writings. They are just ordinary people like you and I

 

[deafdyke]

Mookie, nobody here is Oral-ONLY! We simply think that oral SKILLS are a good thing. Say you spoke Swedish in a country that was majority French speaking. Outside of a few people, you wouldn't be able to communicate easily without an interpreter. The same princeple would apply here to ASL vs. English. We adults should help dhh kids to aquirre a FULL toolbox of communication tools, in order to function fully in the greater world!
Fragmenter, Mookie DOES have a good point. I often have difficulty in difficult listening sittuions. Speech really always isn't the perfect tool.
Also, definitly keep an open mind as to school placement. Mainstreaming can be a nitemare sometimes. Believe me I know......Like there are good parts of mainstreaming, but things like snobby peers, not fitting in, teachers who lump you in with the "Ummm who's President Bush?" types, teachers who have never been trained to teach dhh kids (beyond a token week on fingerspelling, or the oral-manual debate)

 

[ismi]

And just a reminder - hearies don't always hear things the first time, either. HOH/oral deaf may be asking for more repeats, but they're not the only ones. I've often had hearies around me thank me for asking for clarification, since it helped them as well - either because they didn't hear what was said, or they didn't understand it. I've even had a few professors comment that they think it was a good thing for the class as a whole (particularly my Russian History prof, who was trying to break her habit of getting excited and speaking too quickly for *anyone* to understand).

 

[R2D2]

Good point Ismi. At university I used to have my hearing fellow students copy my lecture notes because I would sit at the front with my FM microphone and got most of what was said. My hearing student friends said they couldn't hear the lecturer in the big hall.

 

[sr171soars]

...
If you think oral method is excellent for the deaf children, you need to show me evidences in mainstreaming school program for the hearing impaired students. Would they understand hearing people with:
• tight lips (no lips at all)
• strong accents (who would understand Chinese individual)
• overlong beard
• high-speed spoken language
• Highly advanced English spoken language. I.E., Doctor of Philosophy Degree...

Yep, you see these from time to time. Fortunately, you don't run into these
types often. It isn't just the deaf that have trouble with these but also hearing as well. My uncle (hearing) who retired from the feds was in the senior executive service and had a fellow like the PH.D speak at a meeting. My uncle looked around at the others (after the fellow left) and asked did anybody understand him? They shook their heads and these fellows weren't stupid and could hear just fine.

A humorous spin on this...
1) Jimmy Carter type...southern type and/or had plastic surgery and forgot that lips move you know? Move them lips!
2) Welcome to the global economy! We all gotta get along and get used to it too. Accents make for great lip-reading training.
3) Some people have fungus problems...what can you say? Carry some trimmers on you.
4) Slow down man! There isn't a fire around is there?
5) Er...speak English as I not familiar with the Ivory Tower language you know?

 

[Fragmenter]

Not always. Do you have evidence that the oralism method is the perfect answer?

I'm sorry but you are mistaken; I am not trying to fool anyone nor saying that oralism is the perfect solution.

Can you read english?

Can you provide the proof that rate of the oralism students have complete goals for their professional careers? I have seen some of them have not made to their goals. Same results to the ASL individuals.

Can you read english, again? I said that a large amount of deaf people feel that the future demands change.

You only show your opinion, not facts. Correct me if I am wrong. However, you may waste your time to debate over this tough issue.

I already feel I'm wasting my brainpower debating with you.

Deaf Soceity has enough whole technologies and ASL interpreters (Cued-speech interpreters for your kid).

Sure, the deaf has enough technologies for educational purposes but I'm talking about millions of one on one encounters when you are totally on your own in the working world. You can't whip out the VP or have an interpreter on a leash at all times for these situations.

Fragmenter, please do not be a bullshit artist. My wife is also HH. I am not buying your wife’s answers. I am sure that your wife is most likely hearie but not too close to the range of HH.

I'll say this for the last time: My wife has severe hearing loss and went to one of the best oral schools in the nation. She started signing when she was 17. I've known her for 8 years and I know what's BS and what's not BS. You have no idea.

I bet you have might not understand strange people speaking first time. Nice try, buddy.

I don't even understand what my wife's saying lol. You must have pulled that one out of a magician's hat, too, because you're bringing issues in this thread I never brought up.

My university classmates had hard time to understand the Egyptian professor teaching in business law because of his strong accent. My ASL terps had hard time to understand him, too. Let see if she can pass the course without taking notes from the classmates and interpreters. I will ask her for the pop quiz. Would you accept the challenge?

I have always asked my HH high school buddies to see if they could hear at all. They replied, “Not always”.

Of course anybody with hearing loss would have a tough time understanding the teacher in a classroom.

Do you know how to balance the checkbook?

LOL. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a comedian here. Are you serious?

Nope, it is not cop out. I believe that you have researched insufficient info about the results of achieving education between oralism school and ASL school.

I am not talking about HA or CI. You are misunderstood completely. The advanced technologies are computers and gadgets. What in the world do you think CI students can live without computers? Yeah right…

I've observed plenty and I'm confident in my analysis. It's your opinion, not mine.

Don’t you have videophone for offices? Would your employers accept you as a white-collar executive? Of course, the firm will write for tax purposes.

Naturally, I do have the videophone in my cubical. I do have Email that my co-workers needs to communicate me. I do have the pager that the vendors would be contacting me for the ready delivery. Therefore, there is no barrier communication. What makes you think? Of course, I will be ready for the next promotion. Ah, yes…welcome to the ADA era.

I'm tired of communicating with co-workers via instant messaging, emails, videophone and limited sign language. More power to you if you aren't tired of it.

I have told my ex boss that we cannot teach an old dog new tricks. He corrected me that any inexperienced employee can do it. He is right. What about your mom? Does Greema know how to cut and paste the digital pix on the computer?

Are you serious, again? Cutting & pasting images on a computer and balancing checkbooks are something to be proud of? No comment for that

Yep, it is your right to make the right decision for your kids.

Totally. We don't care what you think and never will. We care about their future

 

[Fragmenter]

Mookie, nobody here is Oral-ONLY! We simply think that oral SKILLS are a good thing.

We adults should help dhh kids to aquirre a FULL toolbox of communication tools, in order to function fully in the greater world!

Exactly. That's all I'm saying but some individuals sees it as an extreme point of view. I will never understand those type of people.

Fragmenter, Mookie DOES have a good point. I often have difficulty in difficult listening sittuions. Speech really always isn't the perfect tool.

Also, definitly keep an open mind as to school placement. Mainstreaming can be a nitemare sometimes. Believe me I know......Like there are good parts of mainstreaming, but things like snobby peers, not fitting in, teachers who lump you in with the "Ummm who's President Bush?" types, teachers who have never been trained to teach dhh kids (beyond a token week on fingerspelling, or the oral-manual debate)

I agree. But I believe you need all the negative stuff to help wake up the deaf student. You shouldn't shield the deaf student from the world or else he/she would be easily devoured once he/she is on their own. Just my opinion.

 

[Bear]

Can you read english?




Can you read english, again? I said that a large amount of deaf people feel that the future demands change.



I already feel I'm wasting my brainpower debating with you.



Sure, the deaf has enough technologies for educational purposes but I'm talking about millions of one on one encounters when you are totally on your own in the working world. You can't whip out the VP or have an interpreter on a leash at all times for these situations.



I'll say this for the last time: My wife has severe hearing loss and went to one of the best oral schools in the nation. She started signing when she was 17. I've known her for 8 years and I know what's BS and what's not BS. You have no idea.



I don't even understand what my wife's saying lol. You must have pulled that one out of a magician's hat, too, because you're bringing issues in this thread I never brought up.



Of course anybody with hearing loss would have a tough time understanding the teacher in a classroom.



LOL. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a comedian here. Are you serious?



I've observed plenty and I'm confident in my analysis. It's your opinion, not mine.



I'm tired of communicating with co-workers via instant messaging, emails, videophone and limited sign language. More power to you if you aren't tired of it.



Are you serious, again? Cutting & pasting images on a computer and balancing checkbooks are something to be proud of? No comment for that

Hiya Fragmenter,

I have just one thing to say to your earlier comment about being oral and getting the jobs you want.

I too am oral and can speak very clearly and very well. Still cant find a job. So speech doesnt necessarily *help* you find a job. Sure, its nice to be able to talk with the hearing, but what is the point in doing so if you cant hear them well enough to carry on a conversation with them?

I also was in your wife's shoes. I could hear on a phone, I could talk to just about anyone and understand them, but I wasnt hearing, I was simply a deaf individual that could hear with a HA well enough to get by. But even then I had a hard time finding jobs.

In today's society it isnt about being able to hear and speak or not. It is about how much skills you have and how many years youve used them.

Hope you can understand a little more.

Bear

 

[GalaxyAngel]

Yeah, which do you prefer to put a test lab rat?

1. Oral School
2. ASL School
3. Mainstreaming School
4. Your Homeschool
5. Private (Religious) School
6. Clown College

Nobody is perfect.

Guess what, I've got selected #6

 

[rockdrummer]

Guess what, I've got selected #6

HA!! Yeah, Mookie has a PHD from clown college (he is a funny guy) and also is attending salad tossing school where I heard he is at the head of his class. JK Mookie. I'ts just payback my brother!

 

[greema]

Fragmenter, please do not be a bullshit artist. My wife is also HH. I am not buying your wife’s answers. I am sure that your wife is most likely hearie but not too close to the range of HH.

QUOTE]

mookie! you gotta watch what you say and presume (A$$ume!) -- MY daughter-in-law is HARD-OF-HEARING, she is NOT a HEARIE!!!!

don't be so presumptive and jump to conclusions that Fragmenter is making things up!


dangerous ground, buddy!

 

[deafdyke]

But I believe you need all the negative stuff to help wake up the deaf student. You shouldn't shield the deaf student from the world or else he/she would be easily devoured once he/she is on their own.

Oh definitly, but on the other hand, you wouldn't want your kid to experiance such negative stuff that they hate school and they have no friends. I experianced that, and I REALLY HONESTLY believe that's why my emotional issues are so messed up. (I was MAINSTREAMED.....absolutly no "special services) That's why I support split placement, so they can get the best of both worlds!