Is it worth to be "oral"?

[kokonut]

I'm really really curious about how beneficial people have found being raised oral as far as employment goes. I'm late deafened so my oralism (is that a word? I don't care) is a given. But I wonder how objectively people can look at this. I'm not talking about socializing and family life, but with your communication with the world at large. WOuld you have the job you have if hadn't been given oral skills? Would you be as self sufficient and independent if you hadn't? If you are does that factor weigh in on if it was worth it?

I'm not talking about speaking perfectly, but adequately. Just because you can't do something perfectly doesn't seem to be a reason to not do it at all. Adequate seems fine, are you understood? Okay, that's adequate.

Frankly, no. I would not have this job/career of mine if I didn't have the ability to speak and hear with the help of my hearing aid. I wouldn't have been a forest fire fighter fighting the big fires in Idaho and Washington states. Nor would I have been a Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) team leader and resource specialist in the 12 different forest fires I've been involved so far in New Mexico, Colorado, Washington and Oregon. Nor would I have been able to hike out independently on my own deep into the forest to do my work with my field and vehicle radios as my only source of contact while working alone. Nor would I have lead an emergency flood crew team in New Mexico. Being raised orally-aurally has obviously made very, very worthwhile. Obviously it was worth it. And I'm comfortable with that.

 

[kokonut]

I'm really really curious about how beneficial people have found being raised oral as far as employment goes. I'm late deafened so my oralism (is that a word? I don't care) is a given. But I wonder how objectively people can look at this. I'm not talking about socializing and family life, but with your communication with the world at large. WOuld you have the job you have if hadn't been given oral skills? Would you be as self sufficient and independent if you hadn't? If you are does that factor weigh in on if it was worth it?

I'm not talking about speaking perfectly, but adequately. Just because you can't do something perfectly doesn't seem to be a reason to not do it at all. Adequate seems fine, are you understood? Okay, that's adequate.

Frankly, no. I would not have this job/career of mine if I didn't have the ability to speak and hear with the help of my hearing aid. I wouldn't have been a forest fire fighter fighting the big fires in Idaho and Washington states. Nor would I have been a Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) team leader and resource specialist in the 12 different forest fires I've been involved so far in New Mexico, Colorado, Washington and Oregon. Nor could I been able to hike out independently on my own deep into the forest to do my work with my field and vehicle radios as my only source of contact while working alone. Nor could I have lead an emergency flood crew team in New Mexico. Being raised orally-aurally has obviously made very, very worthwhile. Obviously it was worth it. And I'm comfortable with that. In fact, I'm the only deaf/hh person who have done those things.

 

[sheri363]

Frankly, no. I would not have this job/career of mine if I didn't have the ability to speak and hear with the help of my hearing aid. I wouldn't have been a forest fire fighter fighting the big fires in Idaho and Washington states. Nor would I have been a Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) team leader and resource specialist in the 12 different forest fires I've been involved so far in New Mexico, Colorado, Washington and Oregon. Nor could I been able to hike out independently on my own deep into the forest to do my work with my field and vehicle radios as my only source of contact while working alone. Nor could I have lead an emergency flood crew team in New Mexico. Being raised orally-aurally has obviously made very, very worthwhile. Obviously it was worth it. And I'm comfortable with that. In fact, I'm the only deaf/hh person who have done those things.

First of all I would like to congratulate you. You have a rewarding and interesting job that many people would love to have. Kudos to you sir.

Have you heard of this expression, the 'perfect storm'? I think you are very lucky sir. You were born with mild loss in one ear and perhaps moderate loss in the other ear? Your hearing loss 40 some years later is now moderate to severe, both ears? Anyway...

Firstly you were born with a good amount of residual hearing and fitted with hearing aids at age 2. You picked up both speech and language as if it's mere child's play. You were able to hear the high frequency sounds. That means your hearing loss was definitely in the mild range in at least one ear.

Your parents were very involved making sure that you had every advantage possible. They made sure you were wearing the best aids possible. No holds barred right?

Perfect storm sir. You are the recipient of the 'dhh' perfect storm. Confluence of favourable events. Mild hearing loss in one ear, perhaps moderate loss in the second ear. Early fitting of hearing aids. Involved parents. You think you have it made sir. You're what 45 years old? You now have moderate to severe hearing loss. You currently think you haven't developed a distinct 'deaf' tone during the last few years? It's there floating on the surface making a few ripples, waiting to bust out whether you like it or not. In fact people listening to you nowadays might think you have a Boston twang or something!

Something else I would like to add. You mentioned that you use field radios. You can hear them clearly enough right? You don't ask them to repeat?

 

[kokonut]

First of all I would like to congratulate you. You have a rewarding and interesting job that many people would love to have. Kudos to you sir.

Thank you.

Have you heard of this expression, the 'perfect storm'? I think you are very lucky sir. You were born with mild loss in one ear and perhaps moderate loss in the other ear?

No. Where or how did you come up with that assumption about my hearing loss?

Your hearing loss 40 some years later is now moderate to severe, both ears?

No.

Anyway...

Firstly you were born with a good amount of residual hearing and fitted with hearing aids at age 2.

Incorrect. Fitted with only one hearing aid. And define "good amount of residual hearing."

You picked up both speech and language as if it's mere child's play.

Incorrect. It wasn't "mere child's play." I still had to work at it during my early years. My mother, family and friends were a big part of keeping my conversations going. Schooling played a part, too. I refer to you a link below highlighted in blue.

You were able to hear the high frequency sounds. That means your hearing loss was definitely in the mild range in at least one ear.

I can hear in the high and low frequency sounds. I can, for example, hear all of the notes on the 88-keyboard piano easily. Mild range? Again, incorrect. Where are you basing this information from??

Your parents were very involved making sure that you had every advantage possible. They made sure you were wearing the best aids possible. No holds barred right?

Go here - Kokonut Pundit: Am I an oral/aural success?

Perfect storm sir. You are the recipient of the 'dhh' perfect storm. Confluence of favourable events.

Actually, I attribute that to my mother's effort rather than a "confluence of favourable events" or a "perfect storm." (are you from Britain?). She was the one who had to physically seek information about hearing loss, educational questions, other parents with deaf/hh kids, and so forth. This was especially a difficult thing to do and acquire during the 1960s for any parents. Parents today are fortunate where information is readily available in most cases.

Mild hearing loss in one ear, perhaps moderate loss in the second ear.

Again, no. That is incorrect. I only have one "good ear."

Early fitting of hearing aids. Involved parents. You think you have it made sir. You're what 45 years old? You now have moderate to severe hearing loss.

My hearing loss has been the same since I was little.

You currently think you haven't developed a distinct 'deaf' tone during the last few years?

Last few years? Good god, no. I've even acquired a southern accent during my pre-teen to early teen years when my family moved to Georgia. Did you know that even hearing people who acquired accents (e.g. southern accent, etc) can unlearn that by getting rid of their accent by taking some courses? Biggest factor is that you have that necessary audio feedback to allow you the ability to hear yourself speak.

USATODAY.com - Hey, y'all, want to lose the drawl?

It's there floating on the surface making a few ripples, waiting to bust out whether you like it or not.

Waiting for what to bust out??

In fact people listening to you nowadays might think you have a Boston twang or something!

People have asked me numerous times if I'm from the south.

Something else I would like to add. You mentioned that you use field radios. You can hear them clearly enough right? You don't ask them to repeat?

I only ask them to repeat once in while but that's usually due to a weak radio signal. I and the person on the other end would ask each other to repeat just so that everything is understood. It's part of the whole safety protocol so that miscommunication won't happen.

 

[trishay79]

I know ASL or some form of it. I am not sure I really know ASL more PIDGIN or whatever. I use sign language around other deaf people and occasionally around my sister when we are discussing proper signs for words. My sister interprets in sign language to me when we are in group social situations sometimes. I use speech around other hearing people. Works great, I can communicate with many people this way.

 

[sheri363]

Originally Posted by sheri363 View Post
First of all I would like to congratulate you. You have a rewarding and interesting job that many people would love to have. Kudos to you sir.

(my answers to your red answers are in blue)

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Have you heard of this expression, the 'perfect storm'? I think you are very lucky sir. You were born with mild loss in one ear and perhaps moderate loss in the other ear?

No. Where or how did you come up with that assumption about my hearing loss?

It was based on me reaching an assumption that you have easily attained near normal or normal speech based on your earlier posts. You had alluded to the fact that all you needed to learn was the r letter. Arrr matey!

Your hearing loss 40 some years later is now moderate to severe, both ears?

No.

My apologies for reaching that assumption. Sorry about that.

Anyway...

Firstly you were born with a good amount of residual hearing and fitted with hearing aids at age 2.

Incorrect. Fitted with only one hearing aid. And define "good amount of residual hearing."

Most dhh people need a fair amount of residual hearing to attain clear and 'deaf tone-less' speech. Obtaining clear speech is possible with a lot of work but I believe that the deaf tone is even more difficult to eradicate from one's speech. This is where I have difficulty wrapping my head around. How did you manage to obtain 'clear hearing-like speech'? Without a deaf tone?

You picked up both speech and language as if it's mere child's play.

Incorrect. It wasn't "mere child's play." I still had to work at it during my early years. My mother, family and friends were a big part of keeping my conversations going. Schooling played a part, too. I refer to you a link below highlighted in blue.

Thank you for the link. First of all that's quite an inspirational blog! I now understand where you are coming from. Your parents had enrolled you into John Tracy Clinic. You were very fortunate kokonut. Most of us back then did not have such positive beginnings. Kudos to your parents and other supportive people for making sure that you succeed both intellectually and emotionally. Your EQ is very healthy.

You were able to hear the high frequency sounds. That means your hearing loss was definitely in the mild range in at least one ear.

I can hear in the high and low frequency sounds. I can, for example, hear all of the notes on the 88-keyboard piano easily. Mild range? Again, incorrect. Where are you basing this information from??

Again it was merely assumptions based upon what I had gleaned from your earlier posts.

Your parents were very involved making sure that you had every advantage possible. They made sure you were wearing the best aids possible. No holds barred right?

Go here - Kokonut Pundit: Am I an oral/aural success?

Thank you for posting the link to your blog. I would say that you are an 'oral/aural success'. Because you have bought into oralism due to the fact that you had succeeded so well, many of us feel that you are advocating as if you are the poster boy for the movement. That's good. Nothing wrong with that. We just would like you to acknowledge that oralism is not a cure all. Surely the clinic is not a success for many of the students. Shouldn't the clinic do a dual approach? Both sign language and speech/language?

What if you weren't such a success? What if your parents didn't enrol you into the John Tracy Clinic? Where would you be today? Would you have fallen through the cracks?

Perfect storm sir. You are the recipient of the 'dhh' perfect storm. Confluence of favourable events.

Actually, I attribute that to my mother's effort rather than a "confluence of favourable events" or a "perfect storm." (are you from Britain?). She was the one who had to physically seek information about hearing loss, educational questions, other parents with deaf/hh kids, and so forth. This was especially a difficult thing to do and acquire during the 1960s for any parents. Parents today are fortunate where information is readily available in most cases.

No I'm not British. I'm Canadian living in one of the atlantic provinces. Perfect storm is a common term around here denoting a confluence of weather patterns producing weather bombs. It also means colloquially that positive events have gathered to produce favourable results. Anyway you are quite right about the times back then. I'm a product of that era also. Again you were quite fortunate that your parents had stumbled upon the clinic and that they had the financial resources to enrol you.

Mild hearing loss in one ear, perhaps moderate loss in the second ear.

Again, no. That is incorrect. I only have one "good ear."

Sorry about that kokonut. Are you are saying that you're deaf in the second ear? That clinic and your support system did excellently. You mentioned in the blog that 'I have never dread sitting at a table surrounded by people who are hearing as long as I feel the acoustic environment is suitable'. How? Did you choose the locations? What if the friends/colleagues had chosen them? I'm sorry sir. I find this pretty perplexing. I'm quite curious to know how you managed to circumvent this into your favour.

Early fitting of hearing aids. Involved parents. You think you have it made sir. You're what 45 years old? You now have moderate to severe hearing loss.

My hearing loss has been the same since I was little.

My apologies for making rash assumptions. I should ask you first. Again my apologies.

However, You currently think you haven't developed a distinct 'deaf' tone during the last few years?

Last few years? Good god, no. I've even acquired a southern accent during my pre-teen to early teen years when my family moved to Georgia. Did you know that even hearing people who acquired accents (e.g. southern accent, etc) can unlearn that by getting rid of their accent by taking some courses? Biggest factor is that you have that necessary audio feedback to allow you the ability to hear yourself speak.

Very true. Most people do acquire regional dialects. Many dhh people acquire their own regional accents along with an extra 'accent'. Many acquire their own distinct accent without any regional accents due to no fault of their own. I have listened to you in your video. I can hear the southern accent. I can hear something else too...not sure what it is though.

USATODAY.com - Hey, y'all, want to lose the drawl?

It's there floating on the surface making a few ripples, waiting to bust out whether you like it or not.

Waiting for what to bust out??

Your deaf accent to bust out. It's there somewhere swimming along with your dominant southern accent.

In fact people listening to you nowadays might think you have a Boston twang or something!

People have asked me numerous times if I'm from the south.

Something else I would like to add. You mentioned that you use field radios. You can hear them clearly enough right? You don't ask them to repeat

I only ask them to repeat once in while but that's usually due to a weak radio signal. I and the person on the other end would ask each other to repeat just so that everything is understood. It's part of the whole safety protocol so that miscommunication won't happen.

Good to hear that!

 

[Bottesini]

Good to hear that!

Just in the interest of not having you go back and forth with Koko, I think he said once he has a 75db loss in the good ear and can't hear out of the other.

If it's conductive, of course he could hear all the tones just more faintly.


Shh......

 

[sheri363]

Just in the interest of not having you go back and forth with Koko, I think he said once he has a 75db loss in the good ear and can't hear out of the other.

If it's conductive, of course he could hear all the tones just more faintly.


Shh......

Thanks botts! That's good to hear that too!

 

[kokonut]

It was based on me reaching an assumption that you have easily attained near normal or normal speech based on your earlier posts. You had alluded to the fact that all you needed to learn was the r letter. Arrr matey!*

Kokonut - yes, that was around 3rd grade. And I have been fine since then.


Firstly you were born with a good amount of residual hearing and fitted with hearing aids at age 2.*

Incorrect. Fitted with only one hearing aid. And define "good amount of residual hearing."*

Most dhh people need a fair amount of residual hearing to attain clear and 'deaf tone-less' speech. Obtaining clear speech is possible with a lot of work but I believe that the deaf tone is even more difficult to eradicate from one's speech. This is where I have difficulty wrapping my head around. How did you manage to obtain 'clear hearing-like speech'? Without a deaf tone?*

Kokonut - what is "deaf tone-less"? You mean a monotone deaf-like voice? no inflection? no modulation in the voice? It is not uncommon for hh people to have clear speech. I am not so sure why the fixation on "hearing-like" speech because there are all kinds of accents and dialects or even people with large noses do talk a bit differently. SOmetimes their own talking style would be hard to follow. Look and watch Sarah Churman on youtube. People would swear she was never born with a hearing loss but you can detect a bit of Texan accent.


You picked up both speech and language as if it's mere child's play.*

Incorrect. It wasn't "mere child's play." I still had to work at it during my early years. My mother, family and friends were a big part of keeping my conversations going. Schooling played a part, too. I refer to you a link below highlighted in blue.*

Thank you for the link. First of all that's quite an inspirational blog! I now understand where you are coming from. Your parents had enrolled you into John Tracy Clinic. You were very fortunate kokonut. Most of us back then did not have such positive beginnings. Kudos to your parents and other supportive people for making sure that you succeed both intellectually and emotionally. Your EQ is very healthy.

Kokonut - my parents never enrolled me into John Tracy Clinic. What my mother did was to use the JTC correspondence course through the mail. EQ?


You were able to hear the high frequency sounds. That means your hearing loss was definitely in the mild range in at least one ear.

I can hear in the high and low frequency sounds. I can, for example, hear all of the notes on the 88-keyboard piano easily. Mild range? Again, incorrect. Where are you basing this information from??*

Again it was merely assumptions based upon what I had gleaned from your earlier posts.Your parents were very involved making sure that you had every advantage possible. They made sure you were wearing the best aids possible. No holds barred right?

Go here - Kokonut Pundit: Am I an oral/aural success?

Thank you for posting the link to your blog. I would say that you are an 'oral/aural success'. Because you have bought into oralism due to the fact that you had succeeded so well, many of us feel that you are advocating as if you are the poster boy for the movement. That's good.

Kokonut - No advocating on my part other than saying numerous times that early intervention is important when it comes to language and communication development and the necessary support mechanism to help make it work whether through hearing aids, CIs, cued speech, ASL, SEE, oral/aural and so on. THere is no such thing as a one shoe size fits all.

Nothing wrong with that. We just would like you to acknowledge that oralism is not a cure all.

Kokonut - I have never said that oralism is a "cure all."

Surely the clinic is not a success for many of the students. Shouldn't the clinic do a dual approach?

Kokonut - Each organization has its own philosophy on what works and what doesnt.

Both sign language and speech/language?*What if you weren't such a success? What if your parents didn't enrol you into the John Tracy Clinic?

Kokonut -I never enrolled into JTC.

Where would you be today?

Kokonut - I wouldnt be where I am today if mother hadnt been proactive in the first place.

Would you have fallen through the cracks?*

Kokonut - speculative.

Perfect storm sir. You are the recipient of the 'dhh' perfect storm. Confluence of favourable events.*

Actually, I attribute that to my mother's effort rather than a "confluence of favourable events" or a "perfect storm." (are you from Britain?). She was the one who had to physically seek information about hearing loss, educational questions, other parents with deaf/hh kids, and so forth. This was especially a difficult thing to do and acquire during the 1960s for any parents. Parents today are fortunate where information is readily available in most cases.*No

I'm not British. I'm Canadian living in one of the atlantic provinces. Perfect storm is a common term around here denoting a confluence of weather patterns producing weather bombs.

Kokonut - I know what a "Perfect Storm" is. I just do not agree with your analogy presentation.

It also means colloquially that positive events have gathered to produce favourable results. Anyway you are quite right about the times back then. I'm a product of that era also. Again you were quite fortunate that your parents had stumbled upon the clinic and that they had the financial resources to enrol you.

Kokonut - I was never enrolled into JTC. It was a JTC correspondence that my mother took part in.

Mild hearing loss in one ear, perhaps moderate loss in the second ear.*

Again, no. That is incorrect. I only have one "good ear."

Sorry about that kokonut. Are you are saying that you're deaf in the second ear?

Kokonut - I am deaf in both ears. Left ear is profound hearing loss and my right with moderate-severe hearing loss.


That clinic and your support system did excellently. You mentioned in the blog that 'I have never dread sitting at a table surrounded by people who are hearing as long as I feel the acoustic environment is suitable'. How? Did you choose the locations? What if the friends/colleagues had chosen them?

Kokonut - Yes, I do the request. Or that I position myself to get a better reception.

I'm sorry sir. I find this pretty perplexing. I'm quite curious to know how you managed to circumvent this into your favour.

Kokonut - by being proactive about it. No mystery there. THis how people get educated about my hearing loss and about hearing loss in general.

*Early fitting of hearing aids. Involved parents. You think you have it made sir. You're what 45 years old? You now have moderate to severe hearing loss.*

My hearing loss has been the same since I was little.

My apologies for making rash assumptions. I should ask you first. Again my apologies.

However, You currently think you haven't developed a distinct 'deaf' tone during the last few years?*

Last few years? Good god, no. I've even acquired a southern accent during my pre-teen to early teen years when my family moved to Georgia. Did you know that even hearing people who acquired accents (e.g. southern accent, etc) can unlearn that by getting rid of their accent by taking some courses? Biggest factor is that you have that necessary audio feedback to allow you the ability to hear yourself speak.*

Very true. Most people do acquire regional dialects. Many dhh people acquire their own regional accents along with an extra 'accent'. Many acquire their own distinct accent without any regional accents due to no fault of their own. I have listened to you in your video. I can hear the southern accent. I can hear something else too...not sure what it is though.*

Kokonut - My father's voice is similar to mine and he's hearing. Sometimes when I answered the phone the person would think that it was my father who was answering the phone.

USATODAY.com - Hey, y'all, want to lose the drawl?It's there floating on the surface making a few ripples, waiting to bust out whether you like it or not.*

Waiting for what to bust out??

Your deaf accent to bust out. It's there somewhere swimming along with your dominant southern accent.*In fact people listening to you nowadays might think you have a Boston twang or something!

People have asked me numerous times if I'm from the south.*

Something else I would like to add. You mentioned that you use field radios. You can hear them clearly enough right? You don't ask them to repeat.

I only ask them to repeat once in while but that's usually due to a weak radio signal. I and the person on the other end would ask each other to repeat just so that everything is understood. It's part of the whole safety protocol so that miscommunication won't happen.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Koko, the basic thing is that you can hear some if so, what is your point of telling us that you can hear well. I m not sure if you are talking about how much you can hear or how much skill you are capable of speaking because of your mother who helped you?
Im trying to understand if you were talking about the heairng level or speaking level.

 

[kokonut]

Koko, the basic thing is that you can hear some if so, what is your point of telling us that you can hear well. I m not sure if you are talking about how much you can hear or how much skill you are capable of speaking because of your mother who helped you?
Im trying to understand if you were talking about the heairng level or speaking level.

The discussion has been revolving around speaking skill hence the op thread..

Sheri was the one who brought up the hearing level and I corrected her/him on those assumptions about my hearing loss. I was filling Iin the gap for sheri's sake on my history.

 

[kokonut]

Just in the interest of not having you go back and forth with Koko, I think he said once he has a 75db loss in the good ear and can't hear out of the other.

If it's conductive, of course he could hear all the tones just more faintly.


Shh......

Avg 68-70 with sensorineural hearing loss in right ear. Yes, I can hear all of the tones.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Ok.

i know some Deaf people who are TOTALLY Deaf (profoundly Deaf). They can speak very good. But may not do well with hearing the sounds by HA or CI, it depends on the frequent/pitch sounds.

 

[kokonut]

Ok.

i know some Deaf people who are TOTALLY Deaf (profoundly Deaf). They can speak very good. But may not do well with hearing the sounds by HA or CI, it depends on the frequent/pitch sounds.

If they have intelligible speech then no problem.

 

[Frisky Feline]

If they have intelligible speech then no problem.

what do you mean by that?

 

[kokonut]

what do you mean by that?

It means their speech is understable.

 

[Frisky Feline]

It means their speech is understable.

Yes. That is what I meant that they speak pretty good for being Deaf. I would not say if Deaf speak fairly then i would not post it in the first place.

 

[deafdyke]

I do think sheri brings up an excellent point...........the perfect storm.
In order to work sucessfully, there needs to be a whole bunch of factors to all work togehter.....those who advocate auditory oralism for ALL or who rave about how it does this or that need to understand that if the perfect conditions/circumstances are not available things can be VERY VERY different from the idealistic "Your kid can spend a few years at speech school and then mainstream and everything will be PERFECT!" view that is pushed by AG Bell. In addition older deaf adults(40plus) who did well orally ALSO need to realize that one big part of their perfect storm really doesn't exist any more....
Back when they were young, it was still common for dhh kids to attend Deaf school........and back then the expectations at deaf school WERE kinda bad.
So older deaf adults got to be mainstreamed with no real baggage or anything....It was assumed "OMG they're super smart!" and they didn't get lumped in with special ed.Unfortuatly now it's super common for dhh kids to be lumped in with the low achievers in special ed.......

 

[deafdyke]

And IMOH,this debate is SO DUMB. Auditory oral/auditory verbal assumes that dhh kids are so low functioning that they cannot master spoken language abilty without life being an eternal speech therapy session....Even dhh kids who Sign STILL can develop pretty good oral speech abilty.....I've seen tons of kids being able to grow up BILINGAL in both speech and Sign, so they can function both with and without their hearing aids/CIs...
Why the heck should dhh kids be trained to exclusively function with only speech and hearing? Why should they have to say "what?" all the time? That's what oralism is............condeming a dhh kid to having to say "what?" all the time!

 

[ambrosia]

We're not talking about kids that are going through speech therapy. We're talking about adults that have already been through it. Was all that work worth it, that's the question.

You can go to speech therapy and still learn sign, they're not exclusive. That wasn't the question.