SEE is a language... It's English...

[posts from hell]

I stopped reading after seeing the word "bitterness."

The thing is: SEE is NOT a language, not English either. How is that making ME bitter? By telling you the truth that you didn't want to hear, you want to come out and say we're bitter.

Sounds like a few other people here. Help yourself. I don't mind.

(read a little more, not all)

If you want me to quote a few people who say they're pleased with you signing with your kid, I can. Don't be blind to these compliments. We're just discussing the fact that SEE is not a langauge. Nothing more, nothing less. Not a bitter discussion, just an educational discussion.

 

[Bottesini]

"Wall, After Wall, After Wall" by Gerilee Gustason

"It's amazing to me how much anger and bitterness seems to be coming out of deaf persons... and some hearing persons who've taken up the 'cause.' these days. For several years I've been trying to explain to parents where some of this comes from, to help them understand the frustrations that many deaf adults grew up with. I tell them, for example:
not to expect that all deaf adult will be pleased to see them signing with their deaf child. If their own parents did not sign to them- we must remember that hearing parents who signed were very, very rare even fifteen years ago- you would think they would be delighted to see hearing parents now signing to their children, whether they were signing ASL, SEE or the sign language of Mars. But this is often not the case, and hearing parents are attacked for signing anything except ASL...
Why are not more deaf adults delighted to see parents signing, no matter what? Could it be that seeing deaf children communicating with their parents, their family, brings back too many bitter memories of their own childhood where they could not communicate freely? Does that hurt so much that they strike out against the parents they see today? Are they taking out their anger and bitterness against their own family against these families? This could be understandable, but hardly fair..and very, very confusing to present day families who are doing well to sign anything, given the incredible number of pressures in modern day America. But it is, to me inexcusable for anyone to stand in front of a group of deaf students and tell them they cannot communicate with their parents, or to tell parents what a disservice they are doing to their children to sign English to them...
It would be foolish and dishonest to deny that many deaf adults have major problems with English. Of course they do. They couldn't hear it. They couldn't lipread it- it's a horrible language to lipread! Everything seems to look like something else.
But I wonder if there may not be more to it than that? For some adults, I wonder if they look at todays deaf students and feel jealous? For someone whose English papers bled, from someone who didn't want to go home from a residential school because there was no one to communicate with. I wonder if it doesn't make them even more bitter to look at some of todays deaf students? These kids have excellent English. They can communicate with their families...over half the families of profoundly deaf children at least try to sign. These kids can communicate effectively with hearing people...and deaf people too!...
....
Let's get the focus back on the uniqueness of each child, and on each and every deaf and hard of hearing child. Let's stop teaching intolerance of differences. Hearing people are not the enemy.
Deaf and hard of hearing people who sign English are not the enemy. As far as our field is concerned right now, I think Pogo was right when he said, 'We have met the enemy, and he is us.'"

Lots more to the article, just pulled a few pieces that I thought were relevant.

I stopped reading after seeing the word "bitterness."

The thing is: SEE is NOT a language, not English either. How is that making ME bitter? By telling you the truth that you didn't want to hear, you want to come out and say we're bitter.

Sounds like a few other people here. Help yourself. I don't mind.

I read the whole thing!

Laughing a little ruefully. I say wait until your kid grows up and ask. Although it is possible he will love you enough that he won't tell you.

 

[CSign]

1) English is a language
2) I posted that article not to offend, but to shed light on the fact that I am being criticized for signing with my child. No, it's not ASL but I am signing and we can communicate very effectively.
3) I never called anyone bitter. Other posters on this thread have done that. The article was written by Gerilee Gustason, not myself.
4) Bottesini, what exactly will my son maybe love me enough not to tell me? He can communicate effectively with myself and others. What exactly is wrong with what I'm doing? I've always given him access to language. Where exactly is the problem? My son does love me more than anything. I adore him. We have a happy, healthy relationship. That isn't going to change.

 

[posts from hell]

1) English is a language
2) I posted that article not to offend, but to shed light on the fact that I am being criticized for signing with my child. No, it's not ASL but I am signing and we can communicate very effectively.
3) I never called anyone bitter. Other posters on this thread have done that. The article was written by Gerilee Gustason, not myself.
4) Bottesini, what exactly will my son maybe love me enough not to tell me? He can communicate effectively with myself and others. What exactly is wrong with what I'm doing? I've always given him access to language. Where exactly is the problem? My son does love me more than anything. I adore him. We have a happy, healthy relationship. That isn't going to change.

ok. Let me address this:

1.) English is a language, period. Not SEE. If SEE was an approved mode of English, it would have been in the books of linguistics. However it is not. Being directly involved with linguistics myself, I can safely say such.
2.) I understand your feelings, but that is not what I am seeing. Allow me to reiterate, we're discussing the concept of SEE itself. You can either learn from it, or leave it. And please allow me to repeat - WE ALREADY COMPLIMENTED you on using sign language.
3.) Why post it?

 

[CSign]

PFH I am not looking for compliments. And yes, you acknowledged that I was signing and I appreciated that. It has turned into more than a discussion about SEE and if it's a language. Like I said in a previous post, I don't care what we want to call it. The fact is I am making English visible to my child.
I posted it because I felt that, especially the first paragraph was very relevant to the situation. Some posters find the need to criticize what I've done. The fact is it worked for us. It was successful, and it is functional.
Yes, it does take a bit longer to communicate than in ASL. But as another poster pointed out, there are many words that make up the English language.
Being called an audist isn't exactly the kindest thing to say. In fact, if I didn't know the truth I'd be offended by such an ignorant comment.
I have also never criticized anyones English skills, so for people to get bent out of shape because I wanted my child to master English is a bit ridiculous. I know that a deaf individuals ability to articulate words, and to read/write in English isn't indicative of their level of intelligence. It's indicative of their access to it.

C

 

[CSign]

Excuse me, the second paragraph.

 

[posts from hell]

uh, ok.. why are you butt hurt then? We're fine with you giving your little one english...

The thing is that we don't understand why you're putting in time NOW to learn SEE then... LATER to learn ASL.. More work on your part

And it's been proven that SEE isnt the best thing... Also I dont believe we are telling you NOT to use it... ok?

ALLLLLLLLSOOOOOOOO... It turned into the language discussion because of your TITLE of this thread.. So the blame is strictly placed on you. Don't project it upon us.

 

[CSign]

I take full responsibility for the title of the thread. No one has specifically said, "don't use it" but the implication has been that I'm not using it as it was intended, and that since I'm not a "professional" I may or may not know what I'm doing. I am using it as intended, and I do know what I'm doing with my son.
I knew zero sign when my son was born. I am now fluent in SEE and beg/int in ASL. I put in a lot of work to get to where I'm at. He has had a lot of exposure to ASL, and I am working on my ASL skills. The way I speak, the way I live, and the way I love changed the day I had my son. Things shifted to making things accessible for him, not what was easy for me.
Not butt hurt, just surprised at the lack of maturity and respect of some of the posters.

 

[posts from hell]

I take full responsibility for the title of the thread. No one has specifically said, "don't use it" but the implication has been that I'm not using it as it was intended, and that since I'm not a "professional" I may or may not know what I'm doing. I am using it as intended, and I do know what I'm doing with my son.
I knew zero sign when my son was born. I am now fluent in SEE and beg/int in ASL. I put in a lot of work to get to where I'm at. He has had a lot of exposure to ASL, and I am working on my ASL skills. The way I speak, the way I live, and the way I love changed the day I had my son. Things shifted to making things accessible for him, not what was easy for me.
Not butt hurt, just surprised at the lack of maturity and respect of some of the posters.

Im not surprised. You wound them up a little yourself as well. Should have really thought things out around here.

 

[shel90]

"Wall, After Wall, After Wall" by Gerilee Gustason

"It's amazing to me how much anger and bitterness seems to be coming out of deaf persons... and some hearing persons who've taken up the 'cause.' these days. For several years I've been trying to explain to parents where some of this comes from, to help them understand the frustrations that many deaf adults grew up with. I tell them, for example:
not to expect that all deaf adult will be pleased to see them signing with their deaf child. If their own parents did not sign to them- we must remember that hearing parents who signed were very, very rare even fifteen years ago- you would think they would be delighted to see hearing parents now signing to their children, whether they were signing ASL, SEE or the sign language of Mars. But this is often not the case, and hearing parents are attacked for signing anything except ASL...
Why are not more deaf adults delighted to see parents signing, no matter what? Could it be that seeing deaf children communicating with their parents, their family, brings back too many bitter memories of their own childhood where they could not communicate freely? Does that hurt so much that they strike out against the parents they see today? Are they taking out their anger and bitterness against their own family against these families? This could be understandable, but hardly fair..and very, very confusing to present day families who are doing well to sign anything, given the incredible number of pressures in modern day America. But it is, to me inexcusable for anyone to stand in front of a group of deaf students and tell them they cannot communicate with their parents, or to tell parents what a disservice they are doing to their children to sign English to them...
It would be foolish and dishonest to deny that many deaf adults have major problems with English. Of course they do. They couldn't hear it. They couldn't lipread it- it's a horrible language to lipread! Everything seems to look like something else.
But I wonder if there may not be more to it than that? For some adults, I wonder if they look at todays deaf students and feel jealous? For someone whose English papers bled, from someone who didn't want to go home from a residential school because there was no one to communicate with. I wonder if it doesn't make them even more bitter to look at some of todays deaf students? These kids have excellent English. They can communicate with their families...over half the families of profoundly deaf children at least try to sign. These kids can communicate effectively with hearing people...and deaf people too!...
....
Let's get the focus back on the uniqueness of each child, and on each and every deaf and hard of hearing child. Let's stop teaching intolerance of differences. Hearing people are not the enemy.
Deaf and hard of hearing people who sign English are not the enemy. As far as our field is concerned right now, I think Pogo was right when he said, 'We have met the enemy, and he is us.'"

Lots more to the article, just pulled a few pieces that I thought were relevant.

What anger and bitterness?

SEE is not a language as you claim it to be and now we are angry and bitter?

Maybe wonder why? Cuz people dont take us seriously.

 

[jillio]

Note "Seeing Essential English" Not Signing Exact English which is what was being discussed in this thread. Signing Exact English is also different from Signed English... SEE 1 which I think is rarely used these days only has twelve markers.

Signing Exact English contains all the markers necessary to make English visible to those that cannot access it auditorily.

"Basic Principles of Signing Exact English

Sign what you say The most important principle of Signing Exact English is that English should be signed as consistently as possible with how it is spoken or written to provide the deaf child a clear model of English. Idioms such as, "dry up" are signed verbatim and inflections such as past tense, -ing, -s, are important."

That was from page 9 of the binder you get from the SEE Center when you attend a skillshop. So it would seem that some of us may have been a bit confused when they "did their research" about SEE. I don't know why one would have gotten the impression that using SEE and TC/sim-com was not how it was intended. It was, in fact intended to be used in whatever manner is appropriate including the use of sign and voice.

Actually, it is discussing all of the MCEs. SEE I just happens to be the forerunner. If it is an MCE, then the discussion applies.

Still, none of the MCEs were ever intended as communication methods. They were intended as teaching tools to be used by a teacher in a classroom who is instructing students on the mechanics of the English language.

You, however, are proposing to use an MCE as a communication method. No one recommends it as such, except yourself.

So now we see where you are getting your misinformation. From the SEE center...the only organization in the U.S. that supports the use of SEE. In contrast to the vast number of organizations that support ASL.

One gets that impression from unbiased research, not from relying on an organization attempting to make money off of an outdated method.

 

[jillio]

I gathered that, and it is disproved as well.

And has been for many years. The resurgence of MCEs can be directly correlated to the increase in childhood implantation. We saw the same thing going on with CS for a few months.:roll:

He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

 

[jillio]

1) English is a language
2) I posted that article not to offend, but to shed light on the fact that I am being criticized for signing with my child. No, it's not ASL but I am signing and we can communicate very effectively.
3) I never called anyone bitter. Other posters on this thread have done that. The article was written by Gerilee Gustason, not myself.
4) Bottesini, what exactly will my son maybe love me enough not to tell me? He can communicate effectively with myself and others. What exactly is wrong with what I'm doing? I've always given him access to language. Where exactly is the problem? My son does love me more than anything. I adore him. We have a happy, healthy relationship. That isn't going to change.

You are not being criticized for signing with your child. You are being corrected for the misperceptions and inaccurate beliefs you have and given the opportunity to correct your errors.

 

[jillio]

"Wall, After Wall, After Wall" by Gerilee Gustason

"It's amazing to me how much anger and bitterness seems to be coming out of deaf persons... and some hearing persons who've taken up the 'cause.' these days. For several years I've been trying to explain to parents where some of this comes from, to help them understand the frustrations that many deaf adults grew up with. I tell them, for example:
not to expect that all deaf adult will be pleased to see them signing with their deaf child. If their own parents did not sign to them- we must remember that hearing parents who signed were very, very rare even fifteen years ago- you would think they would be delighted to see hearing parents now signing to their children, whether they were signing ASL, SEE or the sign language of Mars. But this is often not the case, and hearing parents are attacked for signing anything except ASL...
Why are not more deaf adults delighted to see parents signing, no matter what? Could it be that seeing deaf children communicating with their parents, their family, brings back too many bitter memories of their own childhood where they could not communicate freely? Does that hurt so much that they strike out against the parents they see today? Are they taking out their anger and bitterness against their own family against these families? This could be understandable, but hardly fair..and very, very confusing to present day families who are doing well to sign anything, given the incredible number of pressures in modern day America. But it is, to me inexcusable for anyone to stand in front of a group of deaf students and tell them they cannot communicate with their parents, or to tell parents what a disservice they are doing to their children to sign English to them...
It would be foolish and dishonest to deny that many deaf adults have major problems with English. Of course they do. They couldn't hear it. They couldn't lipread it- it's a horrible language to lipread! Everything seems to look like something else.
But I wonder if there may not be more to it than that? For some adults, I wonder if they look at todays deaf students and feel jealous? For someone whose English papers bled, from someone who didn't want to go home from a residential school because there was no one to communicate with. I wonder if it doesn't make them even more bitter to look at some of todays deaf students? These kids have excellent English. They can communicate with their families...over half the families of profoundly deaf children at least try to sign. These kids can communicate effectively with hearing people...and deaf people too!...
....
Let's get the focus back on the uniqueness of each child, and on each and every deaf and hard of hearing child. Let's stop teaching intolerance of differences. Hearing people are not the enemy.
Deaf and hard of hearing people who sign English are not the enemy. As far as our field is concerned right now, I think Pogo was right when he said, 'We have met the enemy, and he is us.'"

Lots more to the article, just pulled a few pieces that I thought were relevant.

Citation, please. It is required. Then we can access the article and read it in it's entirety.

It is not only against forum rules to post a part of an article without a citation, it is illegal, as well.

We are perfectly capable of judging for ourselves what is relevent and what is not. It is not necessary for you to filter it for us.

 

[CSign]

Shel- that was an article. Not something I wrote.
PFH- yes I did play into things a bit, couldn't help myself. Some of the things that were said were snide and incredibly rude/ uncalled for. I responded to it... It is what it is.

I'm not going to roll over because someone wants to bull doze my land. I will stand up to it.

I'm here because I really do care. I am a champion for Deaf rights and equality for all. Not because I want to claim I know it all, but because I wanted to be involved in whatever ways I can.

I shared my experience which was a positive one. For those that disagree with the way we got here, I'm okay with that. I know it has been a positive thing for my son, and for myself.

For sake of clarity, I am his mother. Proud every day.

 

[shel90]

Shel- that was an article. Not something I wrote.
PFH- yes I did play into things a bit, couldn't help myself. Some of the things that were said were snide and incredibly rude/ uncalled for. I responded to it... It is what it is.

I'm not going to roll over because someone wants to bull doze my land. I will stand up to it.

I'm here because I really do care. I am a champion for Deaf rights and equality for all. Not because I want to claim I know it all, but because I wanted to be involved in whatever ways I can.

I shared my experience which was a positive one. For those that disagree with the way we got here, I'm okay with that. I know it has been a positive thing for my son, and for myself.

For sake of clarity, I am his mother. Proud every day.

Why post the article, then?

 

[CSign]

I posted the title of the article at the top, as well as the author

 

[jillio]

PFH I am not looking for compliments. And yes, you acknowledged that I was signing and I appreciated that. It has turned into more than a discussion about SEE and if it's a language. Like I said in a previous post, I don't care what we want to call it. The fact is I am making English visible to my child.
I posted it because I felt that, especially the first paragraph was very relevant to the situation. Some posters find the need to criticize what I've done. The fact is it worked for us. It was successful, and it is functional.
Yes, it does take a bit longer to communicate than in ASL. But as another poster pointed out, there are many words that make up the English language.
Being called an audist isn't exactly the kindest thing to say. In fact, if I didn't know the truth I'd be offended by such an ignorant comment.
I have also never criticized anyones English skills, so for people to get bent out of shape because I wanted my child to master English is a bit ridiculous. I know that a deaf individuals ability to articulate words, and to read/write in English isn't indicative of their level of intelligence. It's indicative of their access to it.

C

Just because it would appear to you to have worked at this point in time does not mean that it has actually worked. Time will tell, my dear, time will tell. Your child is only 7.

 

[posts from hell]

Shel- that was an article. Not something I wrote.
PFH- yes I did play into things a bit, couldn't help myself. Some of the things that were said were snide and incredibly rude/ uncalled for. I responded to it... It is what it is.

I'm not going to roll over because someone wants to bull doze my land. I will stand up to it.

I'm here because I really do care. I am a champion for Deaf rights and equality for all. Not because I want to claim I know it all, but because I wanted to be involved in whatever ways I can.

I shared my experience which was a positive one. For those that disagree with the way we got here, I'm okay with that. I know it has been a positive thing for my son, and for myself.

For sake of clarity, I am his mother. Proud every day.

Now people like to twist things around, but don't ever do that THEN point your finger at us and say "look, such angry people, bitter people..." If you are a part of the problem, you're the part of the group you label.

It's pretty obvious that I don't appreciate your behavior. I'm willing for it to change.

Also, for "Bulldozing your head off"... Well, if being presented RESEARCH and FACTS = bulldozing your head off... So be it. I think it is an opportunity to be educated and you should be thankful. There are tons of knowledgeable people here - use them.

 

[jillio]

uh, ok.. why are you butt hurt then? We're fine with you giving your little one english...

The thing is that we don't understand why you're putting in time NOW to learn SEE then... LATER to learn ASL.. More work on your part

And it's been proven that SEE isnt the best thing... Also I dont believe we are telling you NOT to use it... ok?

ALLLLLLLLSOOOOOOOO... It turned into the language discussion because of your TITLE of this thread.. So the blame is strictly placed on you. Don't project it upon us.

Exactly. No one has told this poster not to use SEE. We have simply stated the hard and cold facts that have been known for 2 decades + regarding the use of the MCEs so she can make an informed choice.

What is it with these parents getting butt hurt over any information that would allow them to provide a better environment for their child? No one is telling anyone what to do, but it would appear that some people have an objection to learning.