Is it ever ok for kids NOT to use ASL?

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fair_jour
We also have a HUGE problem with teaching the kids to read. I would say 85% of the kids have been in the program since pre-k and 75% have Deaf parents. The kids are still having trouble with reading. I asked the program director about the methodology and she said "Sight words and memorization". I said "you think that you can memorize every word in the English language?". She said "Yes. I hate phonics."
And what about early writing? There is a developmental step where children should be trying to write words and sentences with made up spelling. NONE of the children in my daughter's class can do that, because none of them have the ability to "guess" what the letters in the word will be because they don't have phonetic awareness.
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I find this very disheartening to read statements like this fair_jour. Simply becuase she "hates phonics", it shouldn't be provided? Mindsets of this nature are not likely to change. At least that has been my experience.
 
People are under the assumption that I am promoting oral only. I have an assumption that you guys are promoting mandatory ASL for every SINGLE HoH/Deaf child. After all the question was "Is it ever okay to NOT teach them ASL", a resounding answer is simply no. I am under the assumption that people think that ASL couldn't POSSIBLY hinder a child in ANY way. I disagree with this for indirect reasons. I know everyone is armed with statistics saying the "myth" of ASL interfering with speaking skills has been disproved over and over... but uhhh, in the statistics, what's the control/comparison? Oral deaf failures? Great!

I am all for ASL, but I will not blindly accept the fact that just because a parent uses ASL, s/he MUST be doing the right thing while a parent who doesn't automatically does the wrong thing. Language development shouldn't be the ONLY thing you look at when raising a child.

I have more to say but I'm off to the beach! Ahh.. Miami.
 
faire_jour said:
But my daughter is in a bi-bi school. It is considered very good. There are a total of 3 children who can speak more than Miss Kat can, and they are simply transfers from when the TC program merged with bi-bi.( I mention speech because most claim that being in a voice off enviroment will not effect spoken language development. Also, at our last IEP meeting EVERY professional disagreed with this statement, including the program director who is Deaf, the SLP for the bi-bi school, and her classroom teacher (of the Deaf))
We also have a HUGE problem with teaching the kids to read. I would say 85% of the kids have been in the program since pre-k and 75% have Deaf parents. The kids are still having trouble with reading. I asked the program director about the methodology and she said "Sight words and memorization". I said "you think that you can memorize every word in the English language?". She said "Yes. I hate phonics."
And what about early writing? There is a developmental step where children should be trying to write words and sentences with made up spelling. NONE of the children in my daughter's class can do that, because none of them have the ability to "guess" what the letters in the word will be because they don't have phonetic awareness.
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Any well informed educator will tell you that there is more than one avenue to teaching reading. Phonics is but one method. Sight reading is another. Sight reading isn't about memorizing every word in the English language. Perhaps you should take the time to inform yourself of exactly what each methodology entails.

Again, difficulty with reading is not inherent in deafness. It is created by language delays, and the fact that a child that has not acquired language appropriately is unable to make the connection of the printed word being a symbol for the concept, just as the spoken word and the sign are the symbols for the same concept.

Likewise, when we process a written word cognitively, we do not do so letter by letter, nor phoneme by phoneme. It is processed top down. Just as the progression of movement and hand shape in ASL is processed. This has been proven time and time again through the cognitive testing of both non-signing hearing people and deaf signing people.
 
Daredevel7 said:
People are under the assumption that I am promoting oral only. I have an assumption that you guys are promoting mandatory ASL for every SINGLE HoH/Deaf child. After all the question was "Is it ever okay to NOT teach them ASL", a resounding answer is simply no. I am under the assumption that people think that ASL couldn't POSSIBLY hinder a child in ANY way. I disagree with this for indirect reasons. I know everyone is armed with statistics saying the "myth" of ASL interfering with speaking skills has been disproved over and over... but uhhh, in the statistics, what's the control/comparison? Oral deaf failures? Great!

I am all for ASL, but I will not blindly accept the fact that just because a parent uses ASL, s/he MUST be doing the right thing while a parent who doesn't automatically does the wrong thing. Language development shouldn't be the ONLY thing you look at when raising a child.

I have more to say but I'm off to the beach! Ahh.. Miami.
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The control/comparison is oral deaf children matched for age, grade level, and hearing loss.

Language development, because of its pervasive effects on the cognitive processing, intellectual development, literacy, social development, and psychological development of any child, and specifically the deaf child, should be one of the most important considerations in raising a deaf child.

There are no "oral failures." There are, however, untold numbers of adults and children that the oral only approach has failed. Quite sad, really, when it comes down to the fact that children are being prevented from functioning at a level that is in accordance with their innate abilities as a result of an audist philosophy.

So, to get back to the original question: Sure it's okay not to provide ASL as a tool of communication and learning for a deaf child. As long as you are satisfied with the fact that you are preventing the child from functioning to their ability. Quite frankly, I'm not satisfied with that.
 
faire_jour - Ask the Director of the program to see the age appropriate literacy scores of the children in her program.
 
Daredevel7 said:
People are under the assumption that I am promoting oral only. I have an assumption that you guys are promoting mandatory ASL for every SINGLE HoH/Deaf child. After all the question was "Is it ever okay to NOT teach them ASL", a resounding answer is simply no. I am under the assumption that people think that ASL couldn't POSSIBLY hinder a child in ANY way. I disagree with this for indirect reasons. I know everyone is armed with statistics saying the "myth" of ASL interfering with speaking skills has been disproved over and over... but uhhh, in the statistics, what's the control/comparison? Oral deaf failures? Great!

I am all for ASL, but I will not blindly accept the fact that just because a parent uses ASL, s/he MUST be doing the right thing while a parent who doesn't automatically does the wrong thing. Language development shouldn't be the ONLY thing you look at when raising a child.

I have more to say but I'm off to the beach! Ahh.. Miami.
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Then what do u say about those kids who fell so far behind because they didnt have full access to language, communication and information?

It is our human nature to develop language and ASL is a language...without language, a person basically has nothing.
 
loml said:
faire_jour - Ask the Director of the program to see the age appropriate literacy scores of the children in her program.
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That is confidential information. A school cannot release the individual scores of individual students to anyone other than the parent.

They can only release the standards that the school itself has met and are meeting. Evidently, faire_jour already has that information at her disposal, as she claims that the school her child is enrolled in is a "good school".
 
jillio said:
That is confidential information. A school cannot release the individual scores of individual students to anyone other than the parent.

They can only release the standards that the school itself has met and are meeting. Evidently, faire_jour already has that information at her disposal, as she claims that the school her child is enrolled in is a "good school".
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I should rephrase. People say it is a good school. Deaf parents say it is good, the community says it is good, the State says it is good. She is enrolled there because it is the only choice. It is educating children with very qualified teachers, using the state curriculum, in a bi-bi enviroment.

I have yet to be able to access things like test scores. I am only able to judge based on what I see in the classrooms and the work from the students everyday.
 
faire_jour said:
I should rephrase. People say it is a good school. Deaf parents say it is good, the community says it is good, the State says it is good. She is enrolled there because it is the only choice. It is educating children with very qualified teachers, using the state curriculum, in a bi-bi enviroment.

I have yet to be able to access things like test scores. I am only able to judge based on what I see in the classrooms and the work from the students everyday.
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Nor will you ever be able to access test scores for any child other than your own. As I stated, that is confidential information and you are not entitled to it. Scores go to the state without identifying information. Those scores are then evaluated and analyzed.

And evidently, from your interview with Channel 10 a while back, you have stated in the past that it was an excellent school. Of course,that was pre-CI, wasn't it?
 
jillio said:
Nor will you ever be able to access test scores for any child other than your own. As I stated, that is confidential information and you are not entitled to it. Scores go to the state without identifying information. Those scores are then evaluated and analyzed.

And evidently, from your interview with Channel 10 a while back, you have stated in the past that it was an excellent school. Of course,that was pre-CI, wasn't it?
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Actually arent' there websites like, Great Schools - Public and Private School Ratings, Reviews and Parent Community ,that can show you the average test scores for certain standardized tests?
 
May I ask how we got over 500 replies on whether it's okay to deprive deaf children of ASL?
 
jillio said:
Nor will you ever be able to access test scores for any child other than your own. As I stated, that is confidential information and you are not entitled to it. Scores go to the state without identifying information. Those scores are then evaluated and analyzed.

And evidently, from your interview with Channel 10 a while back, you have stated in the past that it was an excellent school. Of course,that was pre-CI, wasn't it?
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I was never interview by a Channel 10.

I was merely stating that they have excellent teachers, with a solid bilingual enviroment, mostly Deaf of Deaf students, and they are still having trouble with reading.
 
Mockingbird said:
May I ask how we got over 500 replies on whether it's okay to deprive deaf children of ASL?
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animal-smiley-013.gif

You can pick up a lot of side details if you read through the topic.
 
Mockingbird said:
May I ask how we got over 500 replies on whether it's okay to deprive deaf children of ASL?
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Because some people don't see the world as black and white.


If I had a hearing child who completly lost their hearing at age 10, I would give them a CI, and I doubt I would teach them ASL. Why do they need to learn a whole new language when they already communicate perfectly well?
 
jillio said:
The state dept. of education can show you that. I am talking about individual performance scores. If you want accurate compiled scores and ratings, use the dept of education website.
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Thank you. So there is a way to see the stats of how well a school is teaching reading.
 
faire_jour said:
I was never interview by a Channel 10.

I was merely stating that they have excellent teachers, with a solid bilingual enviroment, mostly Deaf of Deaf students, and they are still having trouble with reading.
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Then perhaps it was another channel, but you most definately were interviewed regarding your daughter's school and the condition of the building, and the fact that it was being closed due to the condition of the building.

Of course they are still having trouble with reading. They are getting kids who are language delayed and those delays must be remediated prior to making progress in literacy.
 
jillio said:
Then perhaps it was another channel, but you most definately were interviewed regarding your daughter's school and the condition of the building, and the fact that it was being closed due to the condition of the building.

Of course they are still having trouble with reading. They are getting kids who are language delayed and those delays must be remediated prior to making progress in literacy.
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I explained already that the vast majority of the kids at the school are Deaf of Deaf and do not have language delays. Especially in the older grades, above 3rd grade there are maybe 3 hearing families, and all of them are fluent ASL users.

Yes, I advocated for funding for a new builiding for the school for the Deaf. I will continue to do it even if my daughter is moved to another placement.
 
Mockingbird said:
May I ask how we got over 500 replies on whether it's okay to deprive deaf children of ASL?
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Synopsis: Faire Jour posed the question.

Everyone but Daredevel said no.

Faire Jour said "is so."

Everyone else said "is not."

Faire Jour cursed one person and got banned. Got unbanned and is back at it.

Maybe soon 1000.:hmm:
 
Bottesini said:
Synopsis: Faire Jour posed the question.

Everyone but Daredevel said no.

Faire Jour said "is so."

Everyone else said "is not."

Faire Jour cursed one person and got banned. Got unbanned and is back at it.

Maybe soon 1000.:hmm:
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The reason is because it is impossible to say "THIS WILL WORK FOR ALL" and to pretend like other people's opinions and expertise don't matter. Just because you close your eyes and yell loud enough, doesn't make you right. Even if everyone pats themselves on the back and say "we are soooo right".

The world isn't black and white, I wish it were that easy.
 
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