All about electric cars! - Page 7

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Haha, I hope whoever buys it isn't doing it for the gas mileage. They should be loaded with cash that it didn't matter.

Yeah they can afford it. I liked the McLaren F1, one of the best exotic car. It can get about 20-21 mpg on the highway at 55-60 mph. Not bad for a 627 hp V-12 super car.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 01:26 PM

Depends, I am not saying right or wrong. Back in 80's SUV was not even popular as during 90's., Whats most popular during 80's? You will be surprised what it was.... mini-Vans

The reason why I am not saying about SUV is that it got whole different drivetrain. It has 4x4 and it is hard on fuel economy. 4x4 has improved after 1998.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

and how about SUV? better than before, yes?

**Cheetah** · 11-28-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

By the way, The Telsa electric sport car can go to 60 in 4.3 secs and get up to 250 miles on a charge. Top speed is about 130 mph as well. I think it's about $100k for the car.

I so want one!!!

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Depends, I am not saying right or wrong. Back in 80's SUV was not even popular as during 90's., Whats most popular during 80's? You will be surprised what it was.... mini-Vans

The reason why I am not saying about SUV is that it got whole different drivetrain. It has 4x4 and it is hard on fuel economy. 4x4 has improved after 1998.

Ya forgot family station wagons were popular in the 1980's as well.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 01:28 PM

I do not believe claims that oil companies would do anything for "Green" except the so called "Green papers". Did you notice that oil companies spent tweety tiny percent on R/D? It shows less than .3% what does it tell us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

btw diehardbiker - no comment about this?

**Jiro** · 11-28-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Depends, I am not saying right or wrong. Back in 80's SUV was not even popular as during 90's., Whats most popular during 80's? You will be surprised what it was.... mini-Vans

The reason why I am not saying about SUV is that it got whole different drivetrain. It has 4x4 and it is hard on fuel economy. 4x4 has improved after 1998.

mini-van. suv. truck. whatever. they all have gotten a lot better than before, yes?

Quote:

3) Joint Collaboration between Shell Gas and Power and Toyota. In 2004, Toyota partnered with Shell Gas and Power to launch a new trial of what is known as Shell Gas to Liquids (GTL) fuel in a new fleet of Toyota Avensis cars, which would also be equipped with D-CAT emission reduction technology. This trial, known as “Driving Tomorrow’s Clean Technology,” is part of a wider research program between the two companies that looks to demonstrate the effectiveness of low emissions GTL fuels in current diesel car engines without the need for investment or conversion. Started in the United Kingdom, David Jamieson, the Transport Minister said, “I am very pleased to see leading players in the oil and motor industries working together like this to find creative ways of reducing the impact of road transport on the environment.”

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 01:39 PM

"Partnered" What do you really think is going to happen? Oil companies should never get involved with auto maker to save fuel. Reason? It is purely conflict of interest. I see the other way around. Once partnered, in the end oil companies can give Toyota middle fingers and drop dead. Then when it comes to vote, Oil companies will most likely to win vote since they can afford bigger shares of auto companies. The real motivation of partnership is to hold "Rights" over something and can screw in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

3) Joint Collaboration between Shell Gas and Power and Toyota. In 2004, Toyota partnered with Shell Gas and Power to launch a new trial of what is known as Shell Gas to Liquids (GTL) fuel in a new fleet of Toyota Avensis cars, which would also be equipped with D-CAT emission reduction technology. This trial, known as “Driving Tomorrow’s Clean Technology,” is part of a wider research program between the two companies that looks to demonstrate the effectiveness of low emissions GTL fuels in current diesel car engines without the need for investment or conversion. Started in the United Kingdom, David Jamieson, the Transport Minister said, “I am very pleased to see leading players in the oil and motor industries working together like this to find creative ways of reducing the impact of road transport on the environment.”

**Jiro** · 11-28-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

I do not believe claims that oil companies would do anything for "Green" except the so called "Green papers". Did you notice that oil companies spent tweety tiny percent on R/D? It shows less than .3% what does it tell us?

do you have any idea how much is 0.3%?

that means -

ExxonMobil = $60 million in R&D
Shell = unknown
BP = $284 million in R&D
Chevron = $44.1 million in R&D
ConocoPhilips = $33 million in R&D

plus - they pool in funds with other companies so together - it's probably over $100 million for R&D.

I'm still not understanding why are you so incredibly stubborn and not recognizing the fact that green technology has already started everywhere such as solar energy, wind power, etc.

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 01:41 PM

Well, oil companies can change to a different business slowly. Businesses change overtime like IBM used to only sell mechanical typewriters and they sell servers mostly today.

**Jiro** · 11-28-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

"Partnered" What do you really think is going to happen? Oil companies should never get involved with auto maker to save fuel. Reason? It is purely conflict of interest. I see the other way around. Once partnered, in the end oil companies can give Toyota middle fingers and drop dead. Then when it comes to vote, Oil companies will most likely to win vote since they can afford bigger shares of auto companies. The real motivation of partnership is to hold "Rights" over something and can screw in the end.

I give up. there's no reasoning with you. I don't know if I miss it but there's not a single person in here who agree with you.

If you are that bitter about oil companies, then why are you driving gas-guzzling trucks?

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I give up. there's no reasoning with you. I don't know if I miss it but there's not a single person in here who agree with you.

If you are that bitter about oil companies, then why are you driving gas-guzzling trucks?

It's not making any sense to me either. Someone who's bitter about oil companies should be driving a Prius or something that saves gas.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 06:05 PM

Sorry, I was not against you. I am not that bitter with Oil companies. Just that I know that we can't win with oil companies and learn to live with it.

I will never say that I will be right. You guys could be right just that because I have experience and went though years watching how oil companies doing their business. It is nothing new and how can I believe there will be a true change when I repeat heard and seen cheap talk that never materializes.

As investment perspective, .3% is not a really investment. If Oil companies care enough, they would have invest much more than that. This gives me reasonable doubts with their cheap talks. Perhaps they invested because uncle Sam offering matching contribute so that Oil companies got that investment monies back and they actually invested nothing. That is easily possible, also perhaps to avoid some of tax liablity... invest to save tax dollars. Think about it, that is why I have doubts with them, not you my friends.

My truck is gas guzzler? Your looking at wrong direction. I had met a guy who had same truck but runs on gas. He was pissed off when I told him my truck MPG. He said his gasoline version only gets 8 MPG at most, if lucky on highway maybe 10MPG. I was like whoa! Also, I used my truck ALOT and haul stuff alot, and this enables me to get better mileage when hauling and same time bring along my family or 4 friends no problem. How can car that gets 30 mileage hauls same load as mine and really save money? NOT! That is because car will require several trips, while I can do single trip. Sometimes I hit 23 MPG on highway with load in back. None of cars can beat that fuel economy.

**Jiro** · 11-28-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Sorry, I was not against you. I am not that bitter with Oil companies. Just that I know that we can't win with oil companies and learn to live with it.

I will never say that I will be right. You guys could be right just that because I have experience and went though years watching how oil companies doing their business. It is nothing new and how can I believe there will be a true change when I repeat heard and seen cheap talk that never materializes.

As investment perspective, .3% is not a really investment. If Oil companies care enough, they would have invest much more than that. This gives me reasonable doubts with their cheap talks. Perhaps they invested because uncle Sam offering matching contribute so that Oil companies got that investment monies back and they actually invested nothing. That is easily possible, also perhaps to avoid some of tax liablity... invest to save tax dollars. Think about it, that is why I have doubts with them, not you my friends.

My truck is gas guzzler? Your looking at wrong direction. I had met a guy who had same truck but runs on gas. He was pissed off when I told him my truck MPG. He said his gasoline version only gets 8 MPG at most, if lucky on highway maybe 10MPG. I was like whoa! Also, I used my truck ALOT and haul stuff alot, and this enables me to get better mileage when hauling and same time bring along my family or 4 friends no problem. How can car that gets 30 mileage hauls same load as mine and really save money? NOT! That is because car will require several trips, while I can do single trip. Sometimes I hit 23 MPG on highway with load in back. None of cars can beat that fuel economy.

your last paragraph - there you go!!!! that's the result of oil companies' investment in conjunction with auto companies and others.

now you are able to make a single trip in your truck with a full load and get maybe 23mpg. in the past... if oil companies did nothing, you would not be able to make a single trip with your fully-loaded truck for 23 mpg.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 07:02 PM

Diesel has not change much since it were invented. It has higher energy content, that is why it is so efficient. Don't you realize that all 18 wheelers, school bus, regular bus, trains have all used Diesel mainly to haul. Why? That is because it is so cheap and efficient to use Diesel than Gas. Here is example, train can haul a ton of cargo over 500 miles of track on single gallon of Diesel. It has been like this for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

your last paragraph - there you go!!!! that's the result of oil companies' investment in conjunction with auto companies and others.

now you are able to make a single trip in your truck with a full load and get maybe 23mpg. in the past... if oil companies did nothing, you would not be able to make a single trip with your fully-loaded truck for 23 mpg.

**Cheetah** · 11-28-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Diesel has not change much since it were invented. It has higher energy content, that is why it is so efficient. Don't you realize that all 18 wheelers, school bus, regular bus, trains have all used Diesel mainly to haul. Why? That is because it is so cheap and efficient to use Diesel than Gas. Here is example, train can haul a ton of cargo over 500 miles of track on single gallon of Diesel. It has been like this for years.

Please, you did not just compare a Train with a Truck? Yes, they can use the same fuel, but the differences between then is so huge to make any comparison laughable. The reason a train is so damn efficient is because of the metal on metal tracks and wheels. also the use of gradients and flat runs. I also be they use a ton more fuel starting up than a truck ever would. but still not fair to compare. A train will run 200+ miles to get that fuel efficiency. Not exactly what you want to park in your drive way.

**Cheetah** · 11-28-2011, 07:10 PM

now that you got me thinking again. Tires are another reason fuel economy has vastly improved. I suspect the road surface is also a reason. A lot of science and research goes into the making of tires and roads. Our parents have not exactly been slacking these last 50 years.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 07:13 PM

This is true but again, rubber tires are for oil companies, remember?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

now that you got me thinking again. Tires are another reason fuel economy has vastly improved. I suspect the road surface is also a reason. A lot of science and research goes into the making of tires and roads. Our parents have not exactly been slacking these last 50 years.

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 07:16 PM

Even though you are right. My point is that it is efficient even if it is my own truck. Diesel tend to "lower" their energy when cruising, while gasoline can't. That is the advantage of Diesel. Train will not be able to achieve this mileage if stop as frequently as regular city bus does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Please, you did not just compare a Train with a Truck? Yes, they can use the same fuel, but the differences between then is so huge to make any comparison laughable. The reason a train is so damn efficient is because of the metal on metal tracks and wheels. also the use of gradients and flat runs. I also be they use a ton more fuel starting up than a truck ever would. but still not fair to compare. A train will run 200+ miles to get that fuel efficiency. Not exactly what you want to park in your drive way.

**Cheetah** · 11-28-2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

This is true but again, rubber tires are for oil companies, remember?

And???

Oh, you are still on that kick about oil companies hording technology to keep us buying as much oil as possible.

**Jiro** · 11-28-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Diesel has not change much since it were invented. It has higher energy content, that is why it is so efficient. Don't you realize that all 18 wheelers, school bus, regular bus, trains have all used Diesel mainly to haul. Why? That is because it is so cheap and efficient to use Diesel than Gas. Here is example, train can haul a ton of cargo over 500 miles of track on single gallon of Diesel. It has been like this for years.

So.... Why didn't mighty evil oil companies prevent production of diesel engines so that people will have to spend more on gasolines?

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

This is true but again, rubber tires are for oil companies, remember?

Remember what???

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Even though you are right. My point is that it is efficient even if it is my own truck. Diesel tend to "lower" their energy when cruising, while gasoline can't. That is the advantage of Diesel. Train will not be able to achieve this mileage if stop as frequently as regular city bus does.

Do you realized that diesel engine is much cleaner now than before? Reason? They improved diesel fuel chemistry to make it burn cleaner and efficient.

Just by saying "even though you are right".... Anything you say doesn't matter. You're still fixated with some myth and conspiracy theory from old time. You continue to refuse to listen to facts that I showed you.

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 08:50 PM

The thing is that diesel trains is basically runs a huge diesel generator to feed electricity to the huge 6,000 lb electric motors in each axles...about 4 of them. The trains are about 85% more fuel efficient than back in the 1980's. Trains are more efficient carrying bigger loads of cargo than smaller load of cargos. Semi trucks are better for carrying fewer cargos which is cheaper.

deafsmogtech · 11-28-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Not to me. That's your opinion.

Well, I can see the modern electric vehicles are good for homeowners where the electric car need to be plugging 240 volt outlet for overnight charging. Sounds pretty and easy. One big problem is... If a mother raise a newborn baby or little kids, and easy to forget to plugging her car to recharge the battery pack when arriving home from trip or whatever. Next morning she find "Low Battery" or "Recharge Battery" messenger in dash even she have a Dr appt or drop kids off school. Headache.... But you like an electric car. Cool but not me. Gas is the faster and easy and grab drinks and snacks then you go in hurry time.

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Well, I can see the modern electric vehicles are good for homeowners where the electric car need to be plugging 240 volt outlet for overnight charging. Sounds pretty and easy. One big problem is... If a mother raise a newborn baby or little kids, and easy to forget to plugging her car to recharge the battery pack when arriving home from trip or whatever. Next morning she find "Low Battery" or "Recharge Battery" messenger in dash even she have a Dr appt or drop kids off school. Headache.... But you like an electric car. Cool but not me. Gas is the faster and easy and grab drinks and snacks then you go in hurry time.

How about auto recharger? Just kidding man

deafsmogtech · 11-28-2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

How about auto recharger? Just kidding man

Not worth.

**sequoias** · 11-28-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Not worth.

Or you plug it in for your wife who forget.

deafsmogtech · 11-28-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Or you plug it in for your wife who forget.

, We don't own any electric cars. How about build electric horse for The Kentucky Derby race? Yes? or NO? I prefer real Arabian horse same as real gas powered car. What's wrong with electric car?

diehardbiker · 11-28-2011, 11:01 PM

Do I have right to have some reasonable doubts? What I am saying is that I do not believe this that it would ever happen at the magnitude that you have dream of, IN MY LIFETIME. Until I see the real proof by "Regularly" seen alternative fuel vehicles around. I have not seen much lately, sorry about it. Maybe I need new glasses for all you care.

I love you guys at AD, I hope you are right and I am wrong on this time. All I am asking is "time will tell". That is why I am saying might not going to happen in my lifetime, but whatever alternative fuel going to happen next and it will probably happen after I dive under 6 feet and rest in my case.

HAVE FUN!

**sequoias** · 11-29-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

, We don't own any electric cars. How about build electric horse for The Kentucky Derby race? Yes? or NO? I prefer real Arabian horse same as real gas powered car. What's wrong with electric car?

What?

**Jiro** · 11-29-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Do I have right to have some reasonable doubts? What I am saying is that I do not believe this that it would ever happen at the magnitude that you have dream of, IN MY LIFETIME. Until I see the real proof by "Regularly" seen alternative fuel vehicles around. I have not seen much lately, sorry about it. Maybe I need new glasses for all you care.

I love you guys at AD, I hope you are right and I am wrong on this time. All I am asking is "time will tell". That is why I am saying might not going to happen in my lifetime, but whatever alternative fuel going to happen next and it will probably happen after I dive under 6 feet and rest in my case.

HAVE FUN!

why are you obsessing with alternative fuel???????

**Cheetah** · 11-29-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

why are you obsessing with alternative fuel???????

He is worried that his... um... errr.... gas... is not getting used to it's fullest extent possible.

11-28-2011, 06:05 PM	#192 (permalink)
diehardbiker Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: In back of Superduty Posts: 11,636	Sorry, I was not against you. I am not that bitter with Oil companies. Just that I know that we can't win with oil companies and learn to live with it. I will never say that I will be right. You guys could be right just that because I have experience and went though years watching how oil companies doing their business. It is nothing new and how can I believe there will be a true change when I repeat heard and seen cheap talk that never materializes. As investment perspective, .3% is not a really investment. If Oil companies care enough, they would have invest much more than that. This gives me reasonable doubts with their cheap talks. Perhaps they invested because uncle Sam offering matching contribute so that Oil companies got that investment monies back and they actually invested nothing. That is easily possible, also perhaps to avoid some of tax liablity... invest to save tax dollars. Think about it, that is why I have doubts with them, not you my friends. My truck is gas guzzler? Your looking at wrong direction. I had met a guy who had same truck but runs on gas. He was pissed off when I told him my truck MPG. He said his gasoline version only gets 8 MPG at most, if lucky on highway maybe 10MPG. I was like whoa! Also, I used my truck ALOT and haul stuff alot, and this enables me to get better mileage when hauling and same time bring along my family or 4 friends no problem. How can car that gets 30 mileage hauls same load as mine and really save money? NOT! That is because car will require several trips, while I can do single trip. Sometimes I hit 23 MPG on highway with load in back. None of cars can beat that fuel economy. __________________ J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all" "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson (1778) Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

11-28-2011, 11:01 PM	#207 (permalink)
diehardbiker Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: In back of Superduty Posts: 11,636	Do I have right to have some reasonable doubts? What I am saying is that I do not believe this that it would ever happen at the magnitude that you have dream of, IN MY LIFETIME. Until I see the real proof by "Regularly" seen alternative fuel vehicles around. I have not seen much lately, sorry about it. Maybe I need new glasses for all you care. I love you guys at AD, I hope you are right and I am wrong on this time. All I am asking is "time will tell". That is why I am saying might not going to happen in my lifetime, but whatever alternative fuel going to happen next and it will probably happen after I dive under 6 feet and rest in my case. HAVE FUN! __________________ J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all" "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson (1778) Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

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11-28-2011, 01:41 PM	#189 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, wind generation capital Posts: 21,947	Well, oil companies can change to a different business slowly. Businesses change overtime like IBM used to only sell mechanical typewriters and they sell servers mostly today.

11-28-2011, 07:10 PM	#196 (permalink)
Cheetah Cheetah Consulting-Closed Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,694	now that you got me thinking again. Tires are another reason fuel economy has vastly improved. I suspect the road surface is also a reason. A lot of science and research goes into the making of tires and roads. Our parents have not exactly been slacking these last 50 years.

11-28-2011, 08:50 PM	#201 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, wind generation capital Posts: 21,947	The thing is that diesel trains is basically runs a huge diesel generator to feed electricity to the huge 6,000 lb electric motors in each axles...about 4 of them. The trains are about 85% more fuel efficient than back in the 1980's. Trains are more efficient carrying bigger loads of cargo than smaller load of cargos. Semi trucks are better for carrying fewer cargos which is cheaper.