sequoias

That's an old article before Nissan Leaf came out. People alway bias about things before they come out. They change their mind when they actually touch a product. In fact, 100 miles is sufficient for city commuting because most people commute less than 100 miles a day.

I have read so many people are happy with the Nissan Leafs and they love it so much.

ICE cars spew out more hydrocarbons in the air while driving in the city than on the highways for long distances.

Deafness

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DeafCaroline

If the Nat Gas Act passes, it would be cheaper to convert existing engines to run on natural gas than to buy a whole new car or truck that runs on solar/battery/gas with a $2,000 charger added to the cost.

There's a new technology that has been developed so windows can power your home via spray-on film made up of solar cells. Wouldn't be surprised if they try out this technology on car windows.

There are all kinds of exciting innovative developments out there - it's really hard to predict what the future holds as far as energy goes.

diehardbiker

Yup, there are problems with conversion to CNG, reason? It gets hotter than regular gasoline and does pose problems. It is not perfected.

I still believe that Fuel cell is way to go. Why, just fill it up like gasoline does, rather than plug in and wait too long. I think 10 minutes wait still too long because no one wants to be in line for too long. Also, it has better chances of success than fully electric vehicle holds.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

Cheetah

I didn't read anywhere about CNG being hotter... actually the opposite happens. When you release the gas from the tank, the tank becomes very cold (will heat up when filling and chills when emptying). CNG is considered much safer than regular fuel, but CNG per volume has less energy than gasoline so, you need more of it. NG is lighter than air so in an accident it dissipates.

One of the challenges with fuel cells is the efficiency of hydrogen. There is energy loss when converting from electricity to hydrogen and again a loss when converting from Hydrogen to electricity. If you are using surplus electricity, this makes sense. But most of the time this is not the case or cannot produce enough (using solar cells). You can extract hydrogen from oil wells (that's normally what they are burning at the top of their wells). Again, if you are getting it from fossil fuels, then it's no better for the environment than gasoline.

An electric 10 minute charge would most likely be acceptable to most people but we are not there yet. More acceptable than say a battery swap. how do you know your swapped batteries will take you as far as you need to go to get to the next swap?

If I can get to a place to sleep and charge overnight, I would be be very happy. This means on long trips I would need about 600 ~ 700 miles and batteries are no where near the capacity to handle that.

sequoias

Wirelessly posted (sent from a smartphone. )

The main issue is the battery capacity in electric cars ars limited compared to the gas tank in cars. For example, if you want your cell phone to last longer between charges you would need a bigger battery in mAH rating. So, if they figure out how to make the battery size smaller with more mAH capacity so that would make the same electric car run farther between charges.

Dhb, if you think natural gas and fuel cell cars will have bigger success, why aren't there mass produced fuel cell cars for consumers? They only have success in commerical sector like transit buses, delivery services, government, etc.

deafsmogtech

I went to Los Angeles Auto Show last Sunday, saw some electric vehicles like Audi and BMW, just I walked around and looked at them but I feel like I am going to vomit, quit the electric car show. I feel better with the gasoline powered vehicles on the show. BTW I was there for first time in about 10 years ago. The show is too small not like in 25 years ago. Very sad.

diehardbiker

Yeah, that is what Im talking about and it is smaller than it was 25 years ago? This supports my theory that electric cars aren't feasible at this time, not even during my lifetime.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

deafsmogtech

Why? Pontiac, Olds, Saturn or Alfa Romeo (not market in USA) gone. I used to attending the LA Auto Show for years. Big show for long day or 2 days. Today I took about 2 hours to touring the show, most spend my time on the show is the V8 OHV engines like Camaros/Vettes and Dodge Hemi powered engines. I think they are 2 lefts on the show ( I mean GM and Chrysler with V8 OHV gas powered engines).

diehardbiker

Feds open 'formal safety defect' probe into Chevy Volt - CNN.com

BTW, we are into deep government debts. Didn't you realize that the idea of production All electric vehicle actually deeply subsidized by Uncle Sam in attempt to get more not so interesting parties into buying one. Can we really afford this? Now that DOT is opening inquiry on Chevy-Volt investigation on these expensive battery packs. It will add up the cost and these costs will go beyond what we really can afford.

I'm not trying to be negative, but I am here to be very realistic on any possibilities. This one is not going to happen in our lifetime. I have heard many times over the years since the oil crisis of '70s that "this time it is much better than it was back then" glamors. This is very old tactic to get public interesting into electric cars, and that tactic still not workable anyway.

The idea of hybrid cars seems to be dying already, we now stand a percentage point less than last year on production of hybrid vehicles. I think all electric cars is worse than Hybrid IMHO.

Yeah, V-8 is dying and it is not the first time. V-8 was supposed to phase out permanently back in mid 80's and it didn't really permanent phased out. Again it is all talking, and the talk is still cheap these days. We will see in future and my hunch is V-8 will have come backs once again. The original engine in Ford Model T was just straight 4 cylinders, so we definitely will see 4 cylinder engine for long time.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

Beowulf

My sister and her husband are both retired from GM in Wentzville, Mo., and they say the Volt is selling like hotcakes. They also point out that GM has already paid back all the money they were given in the past. That is about all I know at this point, hmmmm.

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diehardbiker

Not that I am talking about, don't you know there is tax credit for this if one buys zero emission vehicles. It is in thousands dollars tax credit.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

Eighty

I prefer hydrogen, honestly.

highest potential energy per mass unit, no recharging, lot safer emission, renewable source of energy, etc..

For pure electric car,
Batteries are really awful for environment, typical electric car can use up to 30 pB batteries. Imagine if all cars running on petroleum were replaced with electric car, thinking about all those batteries makes me cringe.

I think I would prefer to wait till they figure out how to use super capacitors more effectively.

Cheetah

Then we need a new kind of battery. I vote for inventing a ZPM! (sorry, that was a reference to Stargate)

Buffalo

I haven't thought of batteries as I know they are bad for landfills. Thanks for pointing that out.

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“The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)

TXgolfer

A) GM hasn't really paid back the bailout

Still Government Motors - Forbes.com

B) Volt sales are way off the estimates and although October was better they now have to contend with a new Prius

They have sold roughly 4,600 units this year and will have to sell 5,400 in Nov/Dec just to meet estimates

Will Toyota's new Prius unplug Chevrolet Volt sales?

C) The Volt batteries have a fire problem which probably won't help sales.

Chevy Volt Battery Fires Prompt U.S. Probe : NPR

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Ps 109:8 let his days be few,and let another take his office -KJV-

TXgolfer

I have said this many times.....All we do by going to batteries is replace a small crisis now with a huge crisis later.

__________________
Ps 109:8 let his days be few,and let another take his office -KJV-

sequoias

Um, that's what battery recycling is for. Haven't you heard of recycling rechargeable batteries? How sad.

TXgolfer

Do they recycle them before or after the fire?

__________________
Ps 109:8 let his days be few,and let another take his office -KJV-

sequoias

Who knows.

diehardbiker

Millions of cars sold each year in America, and only measly 4,600 all Electric cars sold this year? See what I am talking about?

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

sequoias

First year of new models almost always are small numbers until they become bigger and bigger as years go by. The first year of the Toyota Prius in the US was small numbers then grew bigger and bigger as years go by. Nissan sold more than 5,000 Leafs. They hit the 5,000 mark in August. GM never sold that many EV-1 in late 90's. Here are the numbers for the EV-1.
1996-1999 (1,117 units)
1997 Model Year: 660 Gen I units
1999 Model Year: 457 Gen II units

Nissan Leaf sales: Nissan officially introduced the Leaf in a ceremony held at its global headquarters in Yokohama on December 3, 2010. The first US customer delivery took place in Northern California on December 11, 2010 and the first delivery in Japan took place at the Kanagawa Prefecture on December 22. Deliveries to individual customers began in Ireland in February 2011, in the UK in March 2011, and in France in August 2011. Deliveries to corporate customers began in Portugal in December 2010, in the Netherlands in March 2011, and in Canada in July 2011. Sales to individuals are scheduled to begin in Switzerland, Spain, Belgium, and Norway in the second half of 2011, with global market availability planned for 2012. As of July 2011, more than 6,000 Leafs had been delivered in Japan, more than 700 units in the UK as of August 2011, and 8,066 units sold in the US through October 2011. Worldwide cumulative sales since December 2010 reached 16,600 units by October 2011.

16,600 units in the first year WORLDWIDE.

Show me a document of if they ever installed a lot of charging stations for electric cars in the past? They are doing this epic lately.

Buffalo

They didn't sell EV-1s. They leased them. I didn't understand why they won't sell them. No wonder EV-1 didn't take off.

__________________

“The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)

sequoias

Yeah, thanks for the correction. I meant lease not sell them.

deafsmogtech

Too much headache to me. I prefer to park my classic Nova and Alfa in my garage and smell good fuel vapor.

sequoias

Wirelessly posted (sent from a smartphone. )

Old fashioned guy. :-)

diehardbiker

I can see why, it is still very expensive to produce these cars since they produced only small quantity, thus result very expensive if sells, so they leased it instead. I cant find article that I read few months ago that it cost around $150K to produce each electric cars. No one is going to buy $150K for electric cars, so lease it instead. That way companies can get these cars back and do more research. Again, it is subsidized from what I am aware of.

This is part of reason why I have very doubt on viability on these electric cars. First of all, it has not kicked excitement, and it is still below half percentage of total vehicle sales. If it is at least 25% then I can see potentials.

Forget electric, Hydrogen is way to go! The only differences between All electric and Hydrogen is how it is refueling. Electric have to recharge and it can take time, comparing to Hydrogen which refuels almost same way as gasoline, yet runs same way as electric. Both of these vehicle runs on electric motor, and I think Hydrogen fuel cell which is pretty much like batteries are much safer than regular batteries. Why? Once in collision, it is easy to cut off the power on fuel cell verses 100% electric batteries that can't cut off power its own when in accident.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

Chevy57

I like hydrogen fuel cell car but Honda FCX Fuel Cell Electric car s only lease is expensive about $600/mo. and three years.
Honda FCX Clarity Overview - Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Site

Compare Fuel Cell Vehicles Side-by-Side

I still be waiting for other fuel cell vehicles next few years or more.

hydrogen fuel s price is cheaper than gasoline?

diehardbiker

That is correct, they are still expensive in production. Hopefully it will eventually become mass production. They have two major issues to correct, and not sure if they have figured it out yet.

Hydrogen is definitely cheaper than gasoline and you can make hydrogen yourself at home. If my memory serves me right, Hydrogen vehicle gets equivalent on gas models as 70 MPG. I think will increase over time.


Here is hard fact, Hydrogen is EVERYWHERE! You can find it pretty much anywhere from water to air to deep down inside Earth, so there is no limits on Hydrogen. Whats even better is that Hydrogen can be re-useable and renewable 100%. Howcome? Simply put, there is no carbon in it to burn it to something else. That is a PLUS for environment.

Yeah, you are breathing some Hydrogen while reading this.

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.

sequoias

Wirelessly posted (sent from a smartphone. )

DHB, the Nissan leaf, you can own or lease. If it costs 150k to make one, why is Nissan selling them by the thousands? I bet you want to be right not wrong. You are greatly misinformed.

Ford is going to release electric version of Focus.

Hydrogen is still way too expensive to own for average american. They are no better than an electric car, range and cost is no better. There is actually no route of what to replace the petroenum burning vehicles by the mass. You need to research more on the downsides on the hydrogen, I don't see many positives yet. You need LOTS of energy to process eletrocyclis to make hydrogen for vehicles. The best bet is compressed natural gas, probably better than hydrogen.

diehardbiker

Im not misinformed at all, none of them are feasible yet. The only time it will happen is if we run out of oil which is not going to happen anytime soon. Trust me, I have heard that we are running out of oil since when? Its early 70's and 40 years has passed we still see oil flowing. 40 years is long long long time

__________________
J-MAC's quote: "People who try and fail are more superior than people who don't try at all"

"If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson (1778)

Avatar picture is Cape Hatteras light house in OBX.