SEE (Signing Exact English) is the best sign language for a child to start with..

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posts from hell

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I'd expect a "forward thinker" to realize that I was actually bragging about my daughter instead of wondering what "forward thinking" meant. Hell, she would even criticize you for your dietary habits. She will get into details of carbs/protein/vitamins that you need - that is just scratching the surface.

I wouldnt be surprised if she starts her own business soon... ;)
 

shel90

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Frankly - I am just disappointed that the high number of Deaf people that I have met has somewhat disappointing achievements that isn't really impressive enough to change the "ideology" of Deafness.

It is possible that their idea of achievement is different from yours. I see my achievements successful but to another person, being a teacher is not considered an achievement. Important that I am happy where I am at (maybe with less bills..lol) not how happy others are with me. If they aren't, I say "here is the door and don't let hit slam your back while you are leaving."
 

jillio

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"Forward thinking" would mean that it is a brain processing of you considering all different options or solutions when you are trying to solve a problem or achieve something. You would not just stop thinking of more options if you already found a solution that would achieve what is necessary. You would try to add more options to analyze which option is the best choice to conserve energy, time, money or other resources.

The opposition of being a "forward thinker" is to say, "I don't know" and then give up.

I have noticed A LOT of deaf people who grew up and graduated from Arkansas School of Deaf would usually stay together like a school of sardines while learning the way how world works for the next few years from the time of graduation. They lacked their own "forward thinking" abilities until they learned how to think in that way in later years (range varied between 25 to 35 yrs old for them to begin their development of the "forward thinking" abilities). I am talking about those who never had exposure to public school systems or being involved in the hearing society.

When I went out to other Deaf communities - I did notice that there was certain patterns in their intelligence levels which would determinate who they would "hang out" with. For example, #1 - those who graduated from a state sponsored deaf school, #2 - those who graduated from either RIT/NITD or Gallaudet, or #3 - those who were mainstreamed and became selective with hanging out with their certain Deaf peers which require specific levels of personal attributes.

The most common denominator to determine their intelligence level and "forward thinking" ability was that they had used SEE.

I considered those pro-ASL users who grew up in a Deaf family society and attended a state sponsored deaf school and I could see that they lacked the "forward thinking" ability and also lacking the ability to venture out on their own without being part of this school of sardines.

Hope that gives you and everyone else the idea of what I meant about measurement of those intelligent attributes that is apparent to show the differences between those SEE, ASL, and other sign language users.

The type of thinking you are describing is age related. It is not possible until the frontal lobe as completely developed...usually between the age of 21 and 24. It is more age related. Not at all dependent upon language mode. And it is known as higher level thought processes. I see a lot of it on this forum.
 

jillio

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Frankly - I am just disappointed that the high number of Deaf people that I have met has somewhat disappointing achievements that isn't really impressive enough to change the "ideology" of Deafness.

Doesn't have anything to do with lack of intelligence or the mode of language used. It has to do obstacle placed in the way by hearing society.
 

jillio

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:) I started off with SEE, and now i'm blessed to be teaching my daughter ASL. I cannot even start bragging on where she is at in "forward thinking" because i don't know where to start.

Right. Because she has been allowed to develop thought patterns consistent with having a language rich environment.
 

deafbajagal

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No - You are able to obtain knowledge independently because you already was a proficient user of English when you graduated from high school. It is because you're not one of those who has went through a life of using only ASL and went through a state sponsored deaf school the entire time. Therefore, you have been able to master reading a novel, self educational, or any other reading materials at time of graduation. Also you have some education from college that is "different" than most of the college education that other pro-ASL students would acquire - they had more dependency on ASL than you did.

I have been hoping to find SOMEONE who, only used ASL their entire life and never had oral education, had achieved the ability to be a "forward thinker"..it would prove my opinion about the importance of SEE being wrong.

Every time I met an intelligent Deaf person either during or before the middle age - I have always asked whether this person has started with ASL, SEE or any other sign language..

I haven't encountered any of them saying ASL.

When I say intelligent - I mean those who are capable of logical and forward thinkings. I do not mean being highly educated such as finishing many years of college.

I think that SEE is an established foundation of providing this person the ability to use the English language as their ways to learn how to think logically.

Let's keep it a friendly debate!

You said: "a person who has started with ASL..." So, that'd be me...you didn't say the person had to continue using ASL the whole way through.

You also said that SEE is the key to establishing a foundation for providing the ability to use English language. I am an example of how that is not the case. Whether I used ASL or oral education throughout my childhood ...either one is NOT S.E.E. :wiggle:

How did I learn to read? Do you remember? 3rd grade, deaf tutor. I couldn't read a single word until my teacher brought her in. The tutor used ASL and that was the fire that got me started in reading. :hmm: :applause:
 

sallylou

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Research studies show that when deaf people use ASL, deaf people use the same part of the brain that hearing people use when speaking English. That's why ASL is a language. There is no difference in the way that deaf people and hearing people think when using language. To state that deaf people think in a way different from hearing people is dehumanizing. Maybe that's how people historically rationalized audism.
 

jillio

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Research studies show that when deaf people use ASL, deaf people use the same part of the brain that hearing people use when speaking English. That's why ASL is a language. There is no difference in the way that deaf people and hearing people think when using language. To state that deaf people think in a way different from hearing people is dehumanizing. Maybe that's how people historically rationalized audism.

It's not that they "think differently", but just that they perceive differently. And when people mess with that by trying to introduce MCEs into the mix, it actually interferes with language development and impedes their naturally functioning cognitive processes.
 

deafbajagal

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For me, when someone uses Sim-Com, I'm just lost. Most of the time is because they are mainly speaking and using some signs and the more the do it, the sloppier the signs get. Often when they use Sim-Com, the signs are very much like manually coded English. Then I really am lost and act like my hair color: blond. lol

I'd much rather them not sign at all and just speechread.
 

VamPyroX

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One thing I have observed in "mainstream" schools is that Deaf students are being taught English reading and writing the same way the hearing students are taught. Mainstream is a nice philosophy but it falls short as a reality.

Young Deaf students need reading and writing classes that are tailored specifically for them. They can merge in with "mainstream" English classes later, at the high school level, for grammar refinement and appreciation of literature. But they really need to get the fundamentals of English firmly established at the elementary level first. Otherwise, they're always playing catch up, or being socially promoted.

IMO
What do you mean when it's tailored specifically for them?

I've seen deaf students who are given too much leeway when doing classwork. If a deaf student does poorly on a subject, instead of encouraging that student to try harder... they make the subject easier or let the student repeat it until he passes it. At the end (no matter how horrible the student does), the student is advanced to the next grade in school. As a result, they graduate high school with an education level 3 to 7 years behind.

When I failed English, they gave me 2 choices... take summer school (and pass) or repeat the same grade the next year. I took summer school and got caught up. I only did that once and learned my lesson. I ended up doing well the next year that I was waived from taking my finals. :)
 

Buffalo

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What do you mean when it's tailored specifically for them?

I've seen deaf students who are given too much leeway when doing classwork. If a deaf student does poorly on a subject, instead of encouraging that student to try harder... they make the subject easier or let the student repeat it until he passes it. At the end (no matter how horrible the student does), the student is advanced to the next grade in school. As a result, they graduate high school with an education level 3 to 7 years behind.

When I failed English, they gave me 2 choices... take summer school (and pass) or repeat the same grade the next year. I took summer school and got caught up. I only did that once and learned my lesson. I ended up doing well the next year that I was waived from taking my finals. :)

ASL and anything visual to help them learn.

Yes, I have seen that teachers can be too lenient with the deaf students because they are feeling sorry for them. They shouldn't! That is why I rather see more of deaf teachers. They usually don't feel sorry for the kids and they make great role models.
 

deafbajagal

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At my current school, we are not "allowed" to fail a student.

WTF?
 

deafbajagal

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Let me rephrase that...we don't give kids a "F." They earned the "F". But we're not allowed to have a "F" on the grades without "permission." It's not right.
 

Reba

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What do you mean when it's tailored specifically for them?
I mean using teaching techniques that better fit the learning styles of deaf students. More emphasis on visual and hands-on methods rather than oral/aural, for example.

I've seen deaf students who are given too much leeway when doing classwork. If a deaf student does poorly on a subject, instead of encouraging that student to try harder... they make the subject easier or let the student repeat it until he passes it.
I definitely don't support that. That doesn't benefit the student at all.
 

Reba

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Let me rephrase that...we don't give kids a "F." They earned the "F". But we're not allowed to have a "F" on the grades without "permission." It's not right.
Who gives the "permission?"
 

deafbajagal

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Admin. Sometimes they will convene an IEP meeting to make sure we are following all the modifications. Which is bullshit.

1. I'm a certified teacher of the deaf and I do my job. I DO follow mods, even though, technically, for a special education classroom, you do not need the modification page from the IEP because that page is designed for the regular education classroom...
2. Some kids are just LAZY and don't want to do their work...I'm qualified to make that determination.
3. If a child is really struggling due to his/her disability, I would have convened an IEP meeting long before the report card is due.

I've had kids flat out tell me..."you can't give me an "F" in this school" with smirks on their faces.

Well, I did get "permission" to put Fs on their report cards. When the parents called (oh, boy they were mad!) and asked why I gave their kids "Fs" I shot back, I didn't! They EARNED their Fs.

The next grading period, almost all of them started turning in assignments, studying for their tests, and oh my! EARNED their good grades.
 
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