School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement

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TheOracle

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I still am acquiring English these days.

I need to remind you, you're off topic. This is about Csign and her thing she has going on, not me.

When someone makes you a mod, you can feel the 'need' to moderate. Right now I feel a need to ignore you per usual. ;)

This thread is about the injustices of the system and how some people think that deafness is 'secondary' to those with cognitive disabilities...unfortunately, you turned this thread into a witch hunt. So if you are still acquiring English, take our word for it that you're wrong.

Again.
 

posts from hell

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When someone makes you a mod, you can feel the 'need' to moderate. Right now I feel a need to ignore you per usual. ;)

This thread is about the injustices of the system and how some people think that deafness is 'secondary' to those with cognitive disabilities...unfortunately, you turned this thread into a witch hunt. So if you are still acquiring English, take our word for it that you're wrong.

Again.

Suggest you to read the entire thread from start to end. :wave:
 

CSign

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I still am acquiring English these days.

I need to remind you, you're off topic. This is about Csign and her thing she has going on, not me.

This is not a thread about me, though some are trying to steer it that way.
 

CSign

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I still am acquiring English these days.

I need to remind you, you're off topic. This is about Csign and her thing she has going on, not me.

When someone makes you a mod, you can feel the 'need' to moderate. Right now I feel a need to ignore you per usual. ;)

This thread is about the injustices of the system and how some people think that deafness is 'secondary' to those with cognitive disabilities...unfortunately, you turned this thread into a witch hunt. So if you are still acquiring English, take our word for it that you're wrong.

Again.

This is more on target as to what this thread is about.
 

TheOracle

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anhdzs-550x733.jpg
 

posts from hell

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This is not a thread about me, though some are trying to steer it that way.

Whenever there is anything with massive openings, questions that arent answered, etc - of course it leads to the person who is delivering the information.

You shouldn't be too surprised.
 

deafdyke

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This students expressive language is a direct result of the fact that she has Down syndrome. Children with Down syndrome almost always have better receptive language than expressive language. This student has made progress by leaps and bounds, and she will continue that progress. Given that she is deaf, the only way for her to receptively understand the message is through her primary mode of communication- ASL.
CSign, what you don't understand is that applies to SPOKEN expressive language. Kids with Down's have what is called apraxia. They can't express themselves verbally very well. As a matter of fact, if I recall correctly, even hearing kids with apraxia/Down's/CP etc, get ASL as a second language and their expressive language goes through the roof, b/c they have an alternative way to express themselves. I think that is what you're not understanding. If there is a problem with expressive SIGNED language, that is a really big red flag for something else being a bit wrong.
I totally and completely support cases like this. I mean it's always possible that by being exposed to really good ASL, her expressive language could improve. But it's a really big red flag that although she only has a moderate mental disabilty, her expressive signed language lags really far behind.
 

TheOracle

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Maybe she has shitty sign skills because she had a shitty education. GTFO! Yeah. It happens.

I understand children with D/s just fine. And if the child has apraxia, then it would show up in her sign as well.
 

TheOracle

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It's no surprise that schools for the deaf are closing. The fact is, that in many cases if you don't fit into the category in a specific way, students can't attend. This is where the problem lives. If the schools would find ways to accommodate those whose needs are a bit different, but still DHH they would be better off. The students would be better off.

I would never want a child placed in a program that isn't appropriate for them. The fact
is that this child is deaf first. No individual can benefit from therapy, services, or
placement if they are not accessing the information first. This particular student was in a DHH placement and did well. Just because she has Down Syndrome doesn't mean she isn't entitled to an education which is fully accessible to her. Throwing students into a class because there is "nowhere else to put them" with students with other unrelated issues serves no one well but the district.

Deafydyke, what say ye to this post? How will people process info with her in a hearing world, hmm? The kid sure as shit isn't reading! She's not signing well. She needs help and she needs to be in an environment where language isn't under-appreciated.
 

deafdyke

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It's no surprise that schools for the deaf are closing. The fact is, that in many cases if you don't fit into the category in a specific way, students can't attend. This is where the problem lives. If the schools would find ways to accommodate those whose needs are a bit different, but still DHH they would be better off. The students would be better off.

I would never want a child placed in a program that isn't appropriate for them. The fact
is that this child is deaf first. No individual can benefit from therapy, services, or
placement if they are not accessing the information first. This particular student was in a DHH placement and did well. Just because she has Down Syndrome doesn't mean she isn't entitled to an education which is fully accessible to her. Throwing students into a class because there is "nowhere else to put them" with students with other unrelated issues serves no one well but the district.

Deafydyke, what say ye to this post? How will people process info with her in a hearing world, hmm? The kid sure as shit isn't reading! She's not signing well. She needs help and she needs to be in an environment where language isn't under-appreciated
You're making this be a black and white issue.......and it's NOT. You are completely and utterly missing that the reason this case is so hard, is b/c she needs a very specialized placement. Not one that an average Deaf School can give her. This has nothing to DO with her having Down's Syndrome. Like say, if she had Down's and mild or even moderate mental disabilty with on par Sign abilty, this wouldn't even have come up in the first place. Granted yes she's deaf, but she's also significently mentally handicapped, with a very significent expressive language delay.....and you know what? The apraxia/language delay does not manifest itself in signed language usage. There are a ton of kids with apraxia at St. Rita's you know!
You don't understand that a specialized mental handicap classroom basicly concentrates on basic skills like communication...........and you're missing that they DO USE sign in communication therapy for severe mental handicap kids! NOBODY is suggesting dumping her in the mainstream or whatever. We're saying she needs a specialized severe mental disabilty placement...where she will get communication therapy etc....she'll be able to communicate BETTER then with her limited sign.
Seriously, this student sounds more like a deaf-blind kid, without the blindness. And it's a fact that Perkins School for the Blind has opened it's program to deaf kids with significent mental disabilty.
Heck, this program at Beverely School for the Deaf sounds like it would fit her perfectly! Children's Center for Communication (CCC) Programs
or Beverly School for the Deaf (BSD) Programs
 

TheOracle

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You don't understand that a specialized mental handicap classroom basicly concentrates on basic skills like communication...

No, they do much more than that. I guess you've never been a special ed teacher like I have. But many on this board look down at people with cognitive disabilities...is it because hearing people think deaf can be dumb and you want to distance yourself?

You also don't know this girl's abilities. ;) But you're Ok with her being in a school that may not be able to meet ANY of her needs? Awesome.

She won't get anywhere without language. She does NOT deserve to be robbed of the most basic human right, damn it.
 

CSign

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DeafDyke- I can't quote you because your post was too long to do it on my phone. With that said, you really need to drop this whole Deaf-Blind placement thing. It would be in no way appropriate to put a sighted child in a class consisting solely of Deaf-Blind children.

Also, her expressive language skills have everything to do with the fact that she has Down syndrome.

Here is a quote I pulled from The National Down Syndrome Society. Here is a link if you care to read the article in it's entirety.

National Down Syndrome Society - Speech and Language Skills in Children and Adolescents - Page 3

"Most children with Down syndrome are able to understand much more than they can express. As a result, test scores for receptive language are higher than for expressive language. This is known as the receptive-expressive gap.

Children with Down syndrome learn well through visual means and often reading and the use of computer programs focusing on language skills can help them learn. Seeing words and images associated with sounds and being able to read words can help speech and language develop. For some children, the written word can provide helpful cues when using expressive language."
 

CSign

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CSign, what you don't understand is that applies to SPOKEN expressive language. Kids with Down's have what is called apraxia. They can't express themselves verbally very well. As a matter of fact, if I recall correctly, even hearing kids with apraxia/Down's/CP etc, get ASL as a second language and their expressive language goes through the roof, b/c they have an alternative way to express themselves. I think that is what you're not understanding. If there is a problem with expressive SIGNED language, that is a really big red flag for something else being a bit wrong.
I totally and completely support cases like this. I mean it's always possible that by being exposed to really good ASL, her expressive language could improve. But it's a really big red flag that although she only has a moderate mental disabilty, her expressive signed language lags really far behind.

It doesn't necessarily apply to spoken language only- it refers to expressive language. Additionally, not all children with Down syndrome have Apraxia.

She is deaf and is entitled to an educational environment that uses her
primary mode of communication. She is entitled to have access to real language, and not some "basic signs" and pictures. She is entitled to develop her natural language to an appropriate level of proficiency. She won't get that in a placement where peers and staff are using signs ambiguously.
 

deafbajagal

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A school for the deaf does not have all of the resources and specialized programming available to accept ALL children with significant hearing loss. Blame the piss-poor funding system for that...but a GOOD deaf school only will accept a student if the school can fully assure that placement is appropriate and will meet ALL of the needs of the child, not just some of her needs. Deaf schools are simply not equipped (by equipped, I mean with adequate staffing, curriculum, resources, etc.) to accept all children with all kinds of disabilities. It is the state education department's responsibility to assure programming is available to each and every child, not the deaf school's. The deaf school is a specialized school for specific needs. Due process is in place for the purpose for anyone who feels that a decision made by a multidisciplinary team is inconclusive or inappropriate. There are very specific steps that must be made to file due process and to see it through...of course, those steps vary from state to state. Folks on this forum cannot truly make a decision on where is the best placement for this particular child unless s/he has access to critical data and information and be involved in the meeting where critical discussion must take place.
 

deafskeptic

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A school for the deaf does not have all of the resources and specialized programming available to accept ALL children with significant hearing loss. Blame the piss-poor funding system for that...but a GOOD deaf school only will accept a student if the school can fully assure that placement is appropriate and will meet ALL of the needs of the child, not just some of her needs. Deaf schools are simply not equipped (by equipped, I mean with adequate staffing, curriculum, resources, etc.) to accept all children with all kinds of disabilities. It is the state education department's responsibility to assure programming is available to each and every child, not the deaf school's. The deaf school is a specialized school for specific needs. Due process is in place for the purpose for anyone who feels that a decision made by a multidisciplinary team is inconclusive or inappropriate. There are very specific steps that must be made to file due process and to see it through...of course, those steps vary from state to state. Folks on this forum cannot truly make a decision on where is the best placement for this particular child unless s/he has access to critical data and information and be involved in the meeting where critical discussion must take place.

That's pretty much the crux of the matter.

To illustrate what deafbajagal is talking about I shall cite an example of a deaf girl who had a severe case of autism that I knew at VSDB.

I've always wondered how she ended up at VSDB; none of the dorm supervisors or the teachers were equipped to deal with her and so she was left to rock back and forth all the time while she waved her hands to herself. Even though she had been there for many years, she never picked up on ASL. So I don't think she got much of an education there.

Nowadays, I think she'd be sent to the Hampton School for the Deaf (there are two VSDBs in VA. One in Staunton and one in Hampton) because it deals with deaf with multiple disablities. Even there, I dunno how they'd deal with her.

I'm not sure how the autistic program would have dealt with her deafness either.

I think that this year VSDB in Staunton would be even less equipped to deal with this as they are considering getting rid of all the computers to cut down on the costs. That should tell you something about how strapped VSDB is.
 
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deafdyke

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No, they do much more than that. I guess you've never been a special ed teacher like I have. But many on this board look down at people with cognitive disabilities...is it because hearing people think deaf can be dumb and you want to distance yourself?

You also don't know this girl's abilities. But you're Ok with her being in a school that may not be able to meet ANY of her needs? Awesome.

She won't get anywhere without language. She does NOT deserve to be robbed of the most basic human right, damn it
The Oracle, I KNOW that they do much more then exclusively concentrating on communication in those types of set ups. That was simply an example. I actually have a lot of friends whose kids have signifcent mental disabilties, so I am not just talking out my hat here.
We are not looking down on kids with severe mental handicaps. I don't know where you even get that. We're simply saying that a local deaf school isn't nessarily the best placement for her. Most kids in the multihandicapped programs tend to have mild/moderate disabilties. (shel and bajagirl, can you back me up here?
You're missing that a deaf school may not be able to meet any of her needs either. She needs a specialized program. Heck, did you know that Austine has a Deaf Autism program? It's not b/c the rest of the country's state schools discrimate against Deaf Autistic students, but b/c they are very low incidence and need very specialized programming. That's the same with this kid!
 
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