Need to STOP Cochlear Implant on Deaf babies

[Bebonang]

Also CIs are here to stay............Sign didn't disappear when HAs came into vogue.....so there's no reason why CIs are a threat.

Not when there are babies. That is totally different thing. The CI should wait until the babies are getting old enough (like a few years older) to go under the knife.

Hearing aids - no surgery

Cochlear Implant (CI) - Cochlear surgery (also a risk)

That has nothing to do about young kids or adults getting their CI.

We are still concern about deaf babies who have to put up with the medical community and their audist parents.

 

[hoichi]

Also CIs are here to stay............Sign didn't disappear when HAs came into vogue.....so there's no reason why CIs are a threat.

You surely cant reasonably believe that? Given what we know of the last 20 years of CI. Sign didn't disappear from this world because us DEAF fought very hard very long and very very serious battles to not only retain sign but to make sure it didn't disappear. frankly if we didn't and left it up to the hearies or CI narry a sign would remain. the difference is one of magnitude.
so here is a question for you
and i hope you sincerely try to answer it, granted of course you do not have to
Why do a vast many Deaf view CI as a threat?
We can brush the hand away and ignore the issue. Fine. That suits many. We can declare "its not a threat", and loosely compare it to hearing aids thus drawing a false conclusion for its justification. Fine. Or we can see it for what it is. See what is happening. There are a number of reasons why CI is a threat. One on a macro cultural level on through to the individual. CI by its very nature is an existential threat to Deaf culture. hell the entire field of audiology by definition and training is one where by default of meaning it is a threat to Deafness. Not only as a "disorder" to be eradicated but also as a culture. with that comes the audist contempt for anything sign. Its main goal is to make people hear. and Deafness a museum piece to be pondered over and be smirked away with a pat on the back as hearing society marches on to its folly. Deafness as any disease or disorder vanquished by the new idol science..........
How the hell can that not be a threat?
The current ideology of those who push these devices "for a better life" for children is to also push for the forbidding of sign language, as in almost all cases those who manufacture, implant and maintain the devices view sign language as a hindrance to a better life rather then aid to it.
Indifference to the threat of CI will lead only to the continued push and eventual legal requirement against any ones wishes to implant babies with these devices. a very ominous future we are jumping into blindfolded if we do not pause and step back from the brink on what people with an agenda for money are trying to do to.
Here we are, Deaf facing a massively funded industry, That will not stop until Deafnes with all that it entails is eradicated. its the audist wet dream. and its come back with a vengeance.
yeah baby
(lights smoke, drags cigarette.....exhales, blows smoke out in the shape of a foggy cochlear implant which disappears........)
i see that as a threat.
given the fast run to put these things into babies heads, i'm left thinking how much a threat the hearing world sees us.

 

[deafdyke]

Who said that ASL is limited to deaf people with CI can't use oral language?

I know that ASL is primary language for deaf Americans, so I'm saying that many deaf people received CI at born, have to learn ASL after oral language doesn't have great success.

There are small number of deaf people with CI can use oral language successfully, without need learn ASL, so many of other deaf people are not.

Again just b/c dhh people can use oral language sucessfully it doesn't mean they wouldn't strongly benifit from ASL.ASL is for HOH people TOO. It's like saying that just b/c a person with cerebal palsy affecting ambulation can walk decently,they can run a marathon or absolutly positively shouldn't use a wheelchair for stuff like long distances........FULL toolbox for EVERY dhh kid,full toolbox for every mobilty/orthapedicly disabled kid, and full toolbox for every blind low vision kid...

 

[deafdyke]

Not when there are babies. That is totally different thing. The CI should wait until the babies are getting old enough (like a few years older) to go under the knife.

Hearing aids - no surgery

Cochlear Implant (CI) - Cochlear surgery (also a risk)

That has nothing to do about young kids or adults getting their CI.

We are still concern about deaf babies who have to put up with the medical community and their audist parents.

Bebo, I DO somewhat agree with you...It's too hard to accurately tell how well a BABY hears. There ARE still a lot of "deaf" losses that respond to aiding,for example. But what about CIs for babies who have clearly shown absolutly no benifit from aiding? There are still babies with deep profound unaidable losses,for whom aiding does nothing.

 

[deafdyke]

You surely cant reasonably believe that? Given what we know of the last 20 years of CI. Sign didn't disappear from this world because us DEAF fought very hard very long and very very serious battles to not only retain sign but to make sure it didn't disappear. frankly if we didn't and left it up to the hearies or CI narry a sign would remain. the difference is one of magnitude.
so here is a question for you
and i hope you sincerely try to answer it, granted of course you do not have to
Why do a vast many Deaf view CI as a threat?
We can brush the hand away and ignore the issue. Fine. That suits many. We can declare "its not a threat", and loosely compare it to hearing aids thus drawing a false conclusion for its justification. Fine. Or we can see it for what it is. See what is happening. There are a number of reasons why CI is a threat. One on a macro cultural level on through to the individual. CI by its very nature is an existential threat to Deaf culture. hell the entire field of audiology by definition and training is one where by default of meaning it is a threat to Deafness. Not only as a "disorder" to be illuminated but also as a culture. with that comes the audist contempt for anything sign. Its main goal is to make people hear. and Deafness a museum piece to be pondered over and be smirked away with a pat on the back as hearing society marches on to its folly. Deafness as any disease or disorder vanquished by the new idol science..........
How the hell can that not be a threat?
The current ideology of those who push these devices "for a better life" for children is to also push for the forbidding of sign language, as in almost all cases those who manufacture, implant and maintain the devices view sign language as a hindrance to a better life rather then aid to it.
Indifference to the threat of CI will lead only to the continued push and eventual legal requirement against any ones wishes to implant babies with these devices. a very ominous future we are jumping into blindfolded if we do not pause and step back from the brink on what people with an agenda for money are trying to do to.
Here we are, Deaf facing a massively funded industry, That will not stop until Deafnes with all that it entails is eradicated. its the audist wet dream. and its come back with a vengeance.
yeah baby
(lights smoke, drags cigarette.....exhales, blows smoke out in the shape of a foggy cochlear implant which disappears........)
i see that as a threat.
given the fast run to put these things into babies heads, i'm left thinking how much a threat the hearing world sees us.

The CI isn't a problem....it's a SYMPTOM of a problem. A CI can be used to raise a dhh kid in a bi-bi or TC manner....It's not always about "hearing without speechreading" or functioning in an auditory verbal manner.
Auditory-verbal and the attitude that we need to function like a hearing person as much as possible is the problem. HOH kids have experianced oralism for decades even before the CI............

 

[Frisky Feline]

yesterday i chatted with my Deaf friend who works with school. She supervises dorm, and work with 5 kids and all of them who have CI. They all had CI when they were two years old and three years old. They are around 13 to 14 years old now. They often tried to remove their CIs due to being in pain for some reasons. one of them often got dizzy really bad. Poor them. They have behind with their education which is why they ended up place into Deaf school couple of years ago. The reason is that they dont do well at speaking, or listening without ASL from the birth to 10 years old. They first learn ASL at school. Whats more My friend got upset with hearing staffs for punishing them if they dont wear CI. I think they hearing staffs have no rights for punishing the kids if they dont put CI on due to being in pain. My Deaf friend fought with them for kids' sakes.

 

[hoichi]

The CI isn't a problem....it's a SYMPTOM of a problem. A CI can be used to raise a dhh kid in a bi-bi or TC manner....It's not always about "hearing without speechreading" or functioning in an auditory verbal manner.
Auditory-verbal and the attitude that we need to function like a hearing person as much as possible is the problem. HOH kids have experianced oralism for decades even before the CI............

its not a symptom it is a piece of technology being implanted in babies heads as soon as the docs and the paycheck allows it.
it is a technology who's main principal and reason for being, is to solve the plm of deafness.
yes oralism was around for decades prior to CI. No one has argued otherwise but when you take an insidious ideology oralaism and couple that with a technology such as CI what do you then get?
Again those who are pushing these things into babies wee heads for the vast majority who are doing it. do so while also being opposed very vehemently to sign.
i hold no illusions here. i know the numbers. i see what the hell is happening. the damn writing is on the wall.
i do not like what i see. but i know that to my eyes it very much looks like its over. with the ensuing rapid advance of technology, and the hearings worlds insistence to use it on us. Our culture is done. half century from now few of us will remain.
and that burns me deep.
the reason why they are so opposed to sign is because sign is the more empowering piece of technology, not CI. They hate sign because sign against the odds and in spite of them. has allowed us to truly be as Deaf. To think. To use rational discourse, To communicate, to remember. Our own culture. Our own telling. Ourselves for ourselves. Sign is the better technology. it is more enduring. it is far less fickle. but they cant make millions on sign can they? they wont allow another paradigm such as us to remain. they always need and wish and try to make us them.
Our best shot and last shot, to at least make sure when we as a culture are eradicated, for us to be remembered as what we are. the language we against them still have is our sign!!!!
that is exactly why these bastards oppose sign so much.
its simple really.
they are aiming for the kids, because they full well know the kids are the future

 

[deafdyke]

yesterday i chatted with my Deaf friend who works with school. She supervises dorm, and work with 5 kids and all of them who have CI. They all had CI when they were two years old and three years old. They are around 13 to 14 years old now. They often tried to remove their CIs due to being in pain for some reasons. one of them often got dizzy really bad. Poor them. They have behind with their education which is why they ended up place into Deaf school couple of years ago. The reason is that they dont do well at speaking, or listening without ASL from the birth to 10 years old. They first learn ASL at school. Whats more My friend got upset with hearing staffs for punishing them if they dont wear CI. I think they hearing staffs have no rights for punishing the kids if they dont put CI on due to being in pain. My Deaf friend fought with them for kids' sakes.

Doesn't surprise me....Wonder if there's something kind of like recruitment seen with CIs.I mean it seems like results from CI vary tremendously (as we all know)....And yet there are STILL lots of kids with CIs in *gasp* Deaf ed programs!....Even with the CI they STILL ended up in Deaf ed!

 

[Foxrac]

Again just b/c dhh people can use oral language sucessfully it doesn't mean they wouldn't strongly benifit from ASL.ASL is for HOH people TOO. It's like saying that just b/c a person with cerebal palsy affecting ambulation can walk decently,they can run a marathon or absolutly positively shouldn't use a wheelchair for stuff like long distances........FULL toolbox for EVERY dhh kid,full toolbox for every mobilty/orthapedicly disabled kid, and full toolbox for every blind low vision kid...

Oh wow, it looks like you don't get it - that's not what I was talking.

I guess it is better for TXGolfer to take care of it, so you have trouble to understand about what I am saying.

 

[deafdyke]

its not a symptom it is a piece of technology being implanted in babies heads as soon as the docs and the paycheck allows it.
it is a technology who's main principal and reason for being, is to solve the plm of deafness.
yes oralism was around for decades prior to CI. No one has argued otherwise but when you take an insidious ideology oralaism and couple that with a technology such as CI what do you then get?
Again those who are pushing these things into babies wee heads for the vast majority who are doing it. do so while also being opposed very vehemently to sign.
i hold no illusions here. i know the numbers. i see what the hell is happening. the damn writing is on the wall.
i do not like what i see. but i know that to my eyes it very much looks like its over. with the ensuing rapid advance of technology, and the hearings worlds insistence to use it on us. Our culture is done. half century from now few of us will remain.
and that burns me deep.
the reason why they are so opposed to sign is because sign is the more empowering piece of technology, not CI. They hate sign because sign against the odds and in spite of them. has allowed us to truly be as Deaf. To think. To use rational discourse, To communicate, to remember. Our own culture. Our own telling. Ourselves for ourselves. Sign is the better technology. it is more enduring. it is far less fickle. but they cant make millions on sign can they? they wont allow another paradigm such as us to remain. they always need and wish and try to make us them.
Our best shot and last shot, to at least make sure when we as a culture are eradicated, for us to be remembered as what we are. the language we against them still have is our sign!!!!
that is exactly why these bastards oppose sign so much.
its simple really.
they are aiming for the kids, because they full well know the kids are the future

Agreed........But again oralism can be done just the same with HAs.....Are HAs a threat? Is BAHA a threat? CI does not make a deaf kid hearing...it makes them at BEST functionally HOH......There's still a plethora of kids who come late to deaf culture and ASL.....but artifical "hearing" doesn't make a hearing kid....There are still MANY functionally and audilogically HOH kids who strongly identify with ASL and deaf culture......Yes, deaf culture has changed....but a HOH kid is just as "deaf" as a Deaf kid who is unaided and doesn't speak!

 

[Bebonang]

Agreed........But again oralism can be done just the same with HAs.....Are HAs a threat? Is BAHA a threat? CI does not make a deaf kid hearing...it makes them at BEST functionally HOH......There's still a plethora of kids who come late to deaf culture and ASL.....but artifical "hearing" doesn't make a hearing kid....There are still MANY functionally and audilogically HOH kids who strongly identify with ASL and deaf culture......Yes, deaf culture has changed....but a HOH kid is just as "deaf" as a Deaf kid who is unaided and doesn't speak!

I don't believe that Deaf Culture has changed. No way. If we have CI Deaf person or people, they can sign just as much as hearing aid person or people and be involved in the Deaf community and Deaf Culture. CI is no different than the hearing aid. It just that CI is involved in surgery and could get into the risk to their life. Back long time ago when I was young having my hearing aid, I really don't want hearing aid but I got stuck with it because of my mother. I feel there are other hearing aid kids who don't like to wear hearing aid, too. But our Deaf Culture will always be here forever.

 

[hoichi]

Agreed........But again oralism can be done just the same with HAs.....Are HAs a threat? Is BAHA a threat? CI does not make a deaf kid hearing...it makes them at BEST functionally HOH......There's still a plethora of kids who come late to deaf culture and ASL.....but artifical "hearing" doesn't make a hearing kid....There are still MANY functionally and audilogically HOH kids who strongly identify with ASL and deaf culture......Yes, deaf culture has changed....but a HOH kid is just as "deaf" as a Deaf kid who is unaided and doesn't speak!

A few things here.
If HA were essentially coerced and lets face it the massive amount of coercion parents suffer when they are faced with the decision to implant or not is huge. If HA where forced onto parents with the caveat that sign be not learned or used then yes, i would argue HA are a threat.
Its never just about the implant. Its always about the implant and sign. Which according to the vast majority of those who push these devices the baby should not learn. why? its ideologically driven period. So her now we have not just some implant or prosthetic we are also dealing with the forbidding of a language and by extension a culture. its entwined. CI as a device to allow artificial hearing is one way to paint it. another way is to use what Foucault would term a "technology of normalization" to describe the function of them on a cultural level. it is this "technology of normalization" that separates itself from normal HA.
and it very much matters.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Again just b/c dhh people can use oral language sucessfully it doesn't mean they wouldn't strongly benifit from ASL.ASL is for HOH people TOO. It's like saying that just b/c a person with cerebal palsy affecting ambulation can walk decently,they can run a marathon or absolutly positively shouldn't use a wheelchair for stuff like long distances........FULL toolbox for EVERY dhh kid,full toolbox for every mobilty/orthapedicly disabled kid, and full toolbox for every blind low vision kid...

I agree with what you are trying to say, but that is not Foxrac's point. If I understand it correctly, Foxrac was saying a small number of deaf implanted CI babies learn oral communication correctly without the help of ASL. I'm guessing this is also without the help of cued speech an other tools. I don't think he is implying a non-full toolbox.

 

[Grummer]

I agree with what you are trying to say, but that is not Foxrac's point. If I understand it correctly, Foxrac was saying a small number of deaf implanted CI babies learn oral communication correctly without the help of ASL. I'm guessing this is also without the help of cued speech an other tools. I don't think he is implying a non-full toolbox.

...and that would seldom happens, and they "researchers" doctor up numbers and reports, and "research findings" to claim it happens to all of them or "most of them"...what bs....

 

[SBirn]

It looks like someone need to scandalize the doctor who put CI in deaf child, so will raise the alert from federal government, especially FDA.

FDA has power to ban or restrict on CI operation for young children.

Y'all know my mantra. The government and corporations are bedfellows. The FDA, therefore, supports businesses and feigns support of us. They will unlikely do a thing. There's too much money involved.

If I know that reports that go to the FDA are let me temper this one time "likely" tampered with and do not reflect actual results, the FDA does as well. But it keeps a lot of people in business from lawyers (boy is Stryker getting hit hard these days) to pharms to the AMA. If the research results were real, the drugs wouldn't have so many side effects and the prosthetic industry lawsuits would go down immensely.

I expect a knockin' on my door at some point I am so anti being jerked around by the government and it is part of life.

 

[Foxrac]

Y'all know my mantra. The government and corporations are bedfellows. The FDA, therefore, supports businesses and feigns support of us. They will unlikely do a thing. There's too much money involved.

If I know that reports that go to the FDA are let me temper this one time "likely" tampered with and do not reflect actual results, the FDA does as well. But it keeps a lot of people in business from lawyers (boy is Stryker getting hit hard these days) to pharms to the AMA. If the research results were real, the drugs wouldn't have so many side effects and the prosthetic industry lawsuits would go down immensely.

I expect a knockin' on my door at some point I am so anti being jerked around by the government and it is part of life.

I think FDA is very politicized and they said GMO foods are safe.

It means we need vote politicians out and break FDA into piece.

 

[deafdyke]

I agree with what you are trying to say, but that is not Foxrac's point. If I understand it correctly, Foxrac was saying a small number of deaf implanted CI babies learn oral communication correctly without the help of ASL. I'm guessing this is also without the help of cued speech an other tools. I don't think he is implying a non-full toolbox.

Agreed....but again there were HA babies who did so as well......There have always been kids with a "nautral apititude for oral skills".....Also one thing needs to be brought up, and of course that's just b/c a dhh kid does well orally,it just means that they have good oral skills...That's an important thing to understand.....oralist imply that good oral skills automaticly= good life acheivement.....Oral skills are really only a small piece of the puzzle....

 

[deafdyke]

...and that would seldom happens, and they "researchers" doctor up numbers and reports, and "research findings" to claim it happens to all of them or "most of them"...what bs....

Exactly.....wasn't there a Johns Hopkins study that said that something like 95% of CI kids still used all the different traditional dhh accomondations? If Johns Hopkins found that,you KNOW there's something there. I know someone who attended a CI sympnysisiom and the reps and docs ALL said that the end results of CI varied HUGELY. Yes, there were minimal accomondation superstars,but there were also a LOT of kids all along the spectrum.....Just as with HAs.....we COULD worry if the research indicated that ALL CI kids functioned as hearing children...But they don't.....Even the good users of CI function as HOH with all the limitations that entails....Yes, taking the super stars and implying that "almost hearing" functioning is possible for ALL dhh kids IS audist and damaging for dhh kids.....but the research results indicate that the CI gives mixed results.....

 

[Audiofuzzy]

In other countries, they have laws or policies that all deaf babies must be implanted and be in oral only programs. I think it is that way in Germany. France, I am not sure. That just stinks!!!

You believe that??? really???

Fuzzy

 

[SBirn]

I think FDA is very politicized and they said GMO foods are safe.

It means we need vote politicians out and break FDA into piece.

See, I'm so skeptical that through my life I've never seen that voting one slimeball out to replace it with another does anything. Dennis K. has promise but in order to operate in the corrupt environment to get anything done - positive or negative - inherently means you may start out with noble intentions but in time, you learn to gain anything that can be perceived as positive for those who elected you is gained by losing one's ethics.

I love Elizabeth Warren. But no one comes out of corporate America clean. It's how things work. (Sorry, ma... wherever you are or aren't. She believed in the system and worked for Adlai and Ms. Roosevelt as a volunteer (and much more). I have her photo with Ms. R. Even if mom were alive today, I'd never tell her what I believe is the truth. She would be upset with me.)

Fox: I agree with you and the FDA also allowed aspartame to be put in foods and even considering it was/could be a neuro toxin but the lobbyists won (duh). No matter how you look at it or what you call it, it's harmful. I was absolutely affected by it and went to a neurologist who thought I was nuts. I eventually FIGURED out what I changed in my diet and knocked out the aspartame and that ended my crescendo headaches as I called them. The list goes on ad infinitum - yeah, add GMO to that endless list!