Is it worth to be "oral"?

[kokonut]

I do think sheri brings up an excellent point...........the perfect storm.
In order to work sucessfully, there needs to be a whole bunch of factors to all work togehter.....those who advocate auditory oralism for ALL or who rave about how it does this or that need to understand that if the perfect conditions/circumstances are not available things can be VERY VERY different from the idealistic "Your kid can spend a few years at speech school and then mainstream and everything will be PERFECT!" view that is pushed by AG Bell. In addition older deaf adults(40plus) who did well orally ALSO need to realize that one big part of their perfect storm really doesn't exist any more....
Back when they were young, it was still common for dhh kids to attend Deaf school........and back then the expectations at deaf school WERE kinda bad.
So older deaf adults got to be mainstreamed with no real baggage or anything....It was assumed "OMG they're super smart!" and they didn't get lumped in with special ed.Unfortuatly now it's super common for dhh kids to be lumped in with the low achievers in special ed.......

Yet, I understand the analogy but the "Perfect Storm" is a poor use of it. Granted it requires favorable conditions and circumstances for things to fall into place but a "storm" it is not. It did not happen all at once. And if anything had my hearing loss been detected at a much earlier age of around several months old and fitted with a hearing aid I'm sure my circumstances and condition would've been at a much better position. Nowadays babies with hearing loss are in a much, much better position for early detection, early intervention and parental involvement.

 

[tomm]

And IMOH,this debate is SO DUMB. Auditory oral/auditory verbal assumes that dhh kids are so low functioning that they cannot master spoken language abilty without life being an eternal speech therapy session....Even dhh kids who Sign STILL can develop pretty good oral speech abilty.....I've seen tons of kids being able to grow up BILINGAL in both speech and Sign, so they can function both with and without their hearing aids/CIs...
Why the heck should dhh kids be trained to exclusively function with only speech and hearing? Why should they have to say "what?" all the time? That's what oralism is............condeming a dhh kid to having to say "what?" all the time!

WHY? Why is that good? I mean I clearly remember a post by someone who said it is possible to get rid of a deaf accent?!?!?!? Some very rarely gifted kids MAY be able to sound like a hearing person....but again WHY is that a good thing? With all the effort and energy it takes to hear and speak.....EVEN for those with a flair for oral skills, a lot of stuff is being sacrificed......EFFORTLESS CONTENT.............

Even HOH kids cannot speak as well as a hearing person.........Most if not all HOH kids still stay in speech for mechanical issues (ie pitch,volumne,tone, articulation) Very few actually MASTER every aspect of speech....Virtually all of the kids who sign off on speech aren't doing so b/c they've mastered speech,but b/c they've admitted that "this is as far as we can go...It's too difficult to expect a dhh kid to have "like hearing" speech.

I wish you'd stop spouting shite, really. I've lurked AllDeaf for a long time and have just signed up cos I've had enough of you saying all this crap.

Why the fcuk are you putting us oral lot into this box that somehow our lives is always difficult, always saying "what", cannot understand what hearing people are saying or would be 100% better off with sign language. Then when someone contradicts you and say that they have decent speech and listening skills, you say that they were privileged, it was a "perfect storm" of factors etc and thereby putting them down by implying that they wouldn't have decent speech skills if their parents was less well off or some crap like that.

I did not have eternal speech therapy - if anything I was done with speech therapy through my CI clinic at age 15, having been assessed to beyond the test's upper limit for vocab (age 30), and I was done with speech therapy from my school for the deaf at age 13, though I was still forced to do tape recordings of my voice to be assessed. (I lived 4 hours drive down country from the school).
My speech therapy consisted of three one-hour sessions per week from ages 2-10, after my CI, they dropped to one a week once I was able to hear all the quiet s and r sounds. And they aren't what you imagine them to be - being sat down and made to speak out certain words or sounds. No, it was things like going to the toy library and learning how to say the names of toys and practice saying those words when I played with them at home, or making pizzas and reading out recipes and being corrected on the hard words, or later on, reading books/watching movies/keeping up on news and talking about them with my teacher of the deaf when she came to visit. There was one time I remember that Rose came with a sewing kit when I was 11 and helped me sew up my teddy because I was upset it had a hole, and I had to talk about what was in that sewing kit such as needles, cotton, string.
I actually have better speech than a lot of people I know, because I was taught to enunciate and speak clearly, whilst others just slur or talk in that typical Kiwi twang. I do get accused of having a British accent though.

I know about 15 deaf kids my age who are mostly oral with CI, and about ten of us desperately want to go bilateral with our implants to get more and better hearing. One of my best friend from another town managed to get another implant cos she has well-off parents. They ALL speak great. Some of them do sign as well. And they've not sacrificed their ordinary education for speech therapy time at all.

So stop making up shit about us to justify your unfounded positions. Yes, it'd be great if deaf kids were bilingual in both a sign language and an oral language, but sometimes it's just doesn't work out that way. It didn't work for my family or me (I have a huge family). It doesn't work for some of my friends' families. But it does work for others, particularly those who have parents who are deaf and uses SL.

Sorry to be rough with you, but you clearly know nothing of the CI experience for most recipients, or our oral speech abilities.

 

[Frisky Feline]

tomm dont worry we all know.

 

[Beowulf]

Rather telling, isn't it: it is worth emulating a hearing person, but ain't worth a darn emulating a deafie.

 

[kokonut]

I wish you'd stop spouting shite, really. I've lurked AllDeaf for a long time and have just signed up cos I've had enough of you saying all this crap.

Why the fcuk are you putting us oral lot into this box that somehow our lives is always difficult, always saying "what", cannot understand what hearing people are saying or would be 100% better off with sign language. Then when someone contradicts you and say that they have decent speech and listening skills, you say that they were privileged, it was a "perfect storm" of factors etc and thereby putting them down by implying that they wouldn't have decent speech skills if their parents was less well off or some crap like that.

I did not have eternal speech therapy - if anything I was done with speech therapy through my CI clinic at age 15, having been assessed to beyond the test's upper limit for vocab (age 30), and I was done with speech therapy from my school for the deaf at age 13, though I was still forced to do tape recordings of my voice to be assessed. (I lived 4 hours drive down country from the school).
My speech therapy consisted of three one-hour sessions per week from ages 2-10, after my CI, they dropped to one a week once I was able to hear all the quiet s and r sounds. And they aren't what you imagine them to be - being sat down and made to speak out certain words or sounds. No, it was things like going to the toy library and learning how to say the names of toys and practice saying those words when I played with them at home, or making pizzas and reading out recipes and being corrected on the hard words, or later on, reading books/watching movies/keeping up on news and talking about them with my teacher of the deaf when she came to visit. There was one time I remember that Rose came with a sewing kit when I was 11 and helped me sew up my teddy because I was upset it had a hole, and I had to talk about what was in that sewing kit such as needles, cotton, string.
I actually have better speech than a lot of people I know, because I was taught to enunciate and speak clearly, whilst others just slur or talk in that typical Kiwi twang. I do get accused of having a British accent though.

I know about 15 deaf kids my age who are mostly oral with CI, and about ten of us desperately want to go bilateral with our implants to get more and better hearing. One of my best friend from another town managed to get another implant cos she has well-off parents. They ALL speak great. Some of them do sign as well. And they've not sacrificed their ordinary education for speech therapy time at all.

So stop making up shit about us to justify your unfounded positions. Yes, it'd be great if deaf kids were bilingual in both a sign language and an oral language, but sometimes it's just doesn't work out that way. It didn't work for my family or me (I have a huge family). It doesn't work for some of my friends' families. But it does work for others, particularly those who have parents who are deaf and uses SL.

Sorry to be rough with you, but you clearly know nothing of the CI experience for most recipients, or our oral speech abilities.

Thank you, Tomm. Very enlightning comment. What is sobering is that there are more hh people with hearing aids and cis than there are culturally deaf people people and the fact we have 36 million people with hearing loss in the United States. Not to discount those who felt they did not benefit from speech sessions there are multitudes others who do feel otherwise that they did benefit immensely their speech sessions.

 

[Smithtr]

I experience many times pro-oral/sign language/lip reading many times It mostly people have viewpoint alots of really expertiment.

not worth oral. If suppose have alots of oral sometimes. I have alots of oral easy really. It experience for lip reading I can lip reading to your face by face. changelle . do it best to fair to.

Ask to what say to do that happened wise you exactly lip reading. I do make sure understood to lip reading..

 

[shel90]

Not to discount those with bad experiences with speech and being oral? Wish general society felt that way. They look at those who were successful and question us why we cant be the same? **** that shit!

 

[deafdyke]

Tom are you positive you're not just parroting the "OMG it's SO wonderful to be able to hear and function as a "healthy normal" person that so many oral deaf kids get? I have hearing friends who are very professionally involved in the D/deaf communties.......They say even the best sucesses still struggle..When the kids are given the addition of ASL/Deaf culture.my friends descbe it as them being let out of a cage.Yes,it's not as bad as the old days when a powerful CI/HA only gave a small percentage of what was said.....but there is a REASON why CI/HA folks are described as HARD of hearing.....it's HARD for us to hear.
I say this as someone who is an EXCELLENT hearing aid user. I get told that I don't talk like a deaf person,I am GUESS WHAT....an AURAL learner.....Guess what? Even with all those advantages, I still have issues....I'm still using my weakest sense.It takes a LOT of energy for HOH people to "hear"....it's never going to be as good as hearing person hearing.....That's a FACT....why does that make you angry?
CIs and hearing aids do not make a dhh person hearing......Are you perfectly well functioning in every and any hearing sitution?I doubt it...Research has indicated that virtually ALL CI people still use the whole spectrum of dhh accomondations.....there are CIers who use 'terps,there are CIers who use the whole spectrum of HOH style accomondations....Very few (including ex hearing implantees) function as hearing..................and here's a thought....you may function very well with your CI, but auditory oral/auditory verbal trains a dhh kid to not be able to function without hearing devices...
How can a dhh kid function if their aid breaks or if their CI malfunctions or if they're in less then prime listening situtions? A/O,AV kids are LOST in that sitution......Not to mention...what about when you enter the dating world? Are you really going to ask your date to use an FM device?

 

[shel90]

Tom are you positive you're not just parroting the "OMG it's SO wonderful to be able to hear and function as a "healthy normal" person that so many oral deaf kids get? I have hearing friends who are very professionally involved in the D/deaf communties.......They say even the best sucesses still struggle..When the kids are given the addition of ASL/Deaf culture.my friends descbe it as them being let out of a cage.Yes,it's not as bad as the old days when a powerful CI/HA only gave a small percentage of what was said.....but there is a REASON why CI/HA folks are described as HARD of hearing.....it's HARD for us to hear.
I say this as someone who is an EXCELLENT hearing aid user. I get told that I don't talk like a deaf person,I am GUESS WHAT....an AURAL learner.....Guess what? Even with all those advantages, I still have issues....I'm still using my weakest sense.It takes a LOT of energy for HOH people to "hear"....it's never going to be as good as hearing person hearing.....That's a FACT....why does that make you angry?
CIs and hearing aids do not make a dhh person hearing......Are you perfectly well functioning in every and any hearing sitution?I doubt it...Research has indicated that virtually ALL CI people still use the whole spectrum of dhh accomondations.....there are CIers who use 'terps,there are CIers who use the whole spectrum of HOH style accomondations....Very few (including ex hearing implantees) function as hearing..................and here's a thought....you may function very well with your CI, but auditory oral/auditory verbal trains a dhh kid to not be able to function without hearing devices...
How can a dhh kid function if their aid breaks or if their CI malfunctions or if they're in less then prime listening situtions? A/O,AV kids are LOST in that sitution......Not to mention...what about when you enter the dating world? Are you really going to ask your date to use an FM device?

 

[Jiro]

I wish you'd stop spouting shite, really. I've lurked AllDeaf for a long time and have just signed up cos I've had enough of you saying all this crap.

Why the fcuk are you putting us oral lot into this box that somehow our lives is always difficult, always saying "what", cannot understand what hearing people are saying or would be 100% better off with sign language. Then when someone contradicts you and say that they have decent speech and listening skills, you say that they were privileged, it was a "perfect storm" of factors etc and thereby putting them down by implying that they wouldn't have decent speech skills if their parents was less well off or some crap like that.

I did not have eternal speech therapy - if anything I was done with speech therapy through my CI clinic at age 15, having been assessed to beyond the test's upper limit for vocab (age 30), and I was done with speech therapy from my school for the deaf at age 13, though I was still forced to do tape recordings of my voice to be assessed. (I lived 4 hours drive down country from the school).
My speech therapy consisted of three one-hour sessions per week from ages 2-10, after my CI, they dropped to one a week once I was able to hear all the quiet s and r sounds. And they aren't what you imagine them to be - being sat down and made to speak out certain words or sounds. No, it was things like going to the toy library and learning how to say the names of toys and practice saying those words when I played with them at home, or making pizzas and reading out recipes and being corrected on the hard words, or later on, reading books/watching movies/keeping up on news and talking about them with my teacher of the deaf when she came to visit. There was one time I remember that Rose came with a sewing kit when I was 11 and helped me sew up my teddy because I was upset it had a hole, and I had to talk about what was in that sewing kit such as needles, cotton, string.
I actually have better speech than a lot of people I know, because I was taught to enunciate and speak clearly, whilst others just slur or talk in that typical Kiwi twang. I do get accused of having a British accent though.

I know about 15 deaf kids my age who are mostly oral with CI, and about ten of us desperately want to go bilateral with our implants to get more and better hearing. One of my best friend from another town managed to get another implant cos she has well-off parents. They ALL speak great. Some of them do sign as well. And they've not sacrificed their ordinary education for speech therapy time at all.

So stop making up shit about us to justify your unfounded positions. Yes, it'd be great if deaf kids were bilingual in both a sign language and an oral language, but sometimes it's just doesn't work out that way. It didn't work for my family or me (I have a huge family). It doesn't work for some of my friends' families. But it does work for others, particularly those who have parents who are deaf and uses SL.

Sorry to be rough with you, but you clearly know nothing of the CI experience for most recipients, or our oral speech abilities.

oh.... you're from New Zealand... that explains.

 

[Jiro]

Thank you, Tomm. Very enlightning comment. What is sobering is that there are more hh people with hearing aids and cis than there are culturally deaf people people and the fact we have 36 million people with hearing loss in the United States. Not to discount those who felt they did not benefit from speech sessions there are multitudes others who do feel otherwise that they did benefit immensely their speech sessions.

36 million people with hearing loss..... yea.... old farts... many of them living in denial.

 

[shel90]

36 million people with hearing loss..... yea.... old farts... many of them living in denial.

Or suffering from dementia.

 

[tomm]

Rather telling, isn't it: it is worth emulating a hearing person, but ain't worth a darn emulating a deafie.

Why is it "emulating"? Have you considered the fact that most deaf kids come from hearing parents? What's wrong with children knowing their parents language(s) if there is a way to access it via cochlear implant/hearing aids. Sometimes that doesn't work and of course the main language should be sign language.

Would I be better off being restricted in my town to only communicating with my deaf friends and my 2 deaf siblings and my parents? Not being able to have in depth convos with my 5 hearing siblings who are mostly much older than me and past learning new languages? My many cousins, uncles and aunties and grandparents? My friends at school and now uni?

And I would have never gone to a school for the deaf either, my parents flat out refused to send us 4 hours up country to a shit school with shit teachers/staff.

Some of you guys never seem to consider us as having our own identities, our own thoughts about how we see ourselves and identities. You never think about the fact that we've used our CIs/HAs since birth (in my case, 3 years old ETA HAs from 3 yo, CI from 10) and it's become part of us. You don't think about how our hearing has impacted us - my deaf sister plays the piano the best in my family, and she used to play for hours during the afternoons and because of that I have an appreciation for piano music, my particular favourite piece being Ballade Pour Adeline. I would not be me if I hadn't gotten my CI at ten.
You just do this fake lament about how no one wants to 'emulate' "deafies" and it's just insincere and unappreciative of the fact that we're all different and live our lives in different ways.

 

[deafdyke]

I'm really really curious about how beneficial people have found being raised oral as far as employment goes. I'm late deafened so my oralism (is that a word? I don't care) is a given. But I wonder how objectively people can look at this. I'm not talking about socializing and family life, but with your communication with the world at large. WOuld you have the job you have if hadn't been given oral skills? Would you be as self sufficient and independent if you hadn't? If you are does that factor weigh in on if it was worth it?

I'm not talking about speaking perfectly, but adequately. Just because you can't do something perfectly doesn't seem to be a reason to not do it at all. Adequate seems fine, are you understood? Okay, that's adequate.

I really haven't found anything super benifical about being oral only regarding employment....hearing people can and do pick up that something is off with your voice or response times....Guess what? They usually assume that a deaf voice or slow response times means that you're not exactly bright.

 

[shel90]

Why is it "emulating"? Have you considered the fact that most deaf kids come from hearing parents? What's wrong with children knowing their parents language(s) if there is a way to access it via cochlear implant/hearing aids. Sometimes that doesn't work and of course the main language should be sign language.

Would I be better off being restricted in my town to only communicating with my deaf friends and my 2 deaf siblings and my parents? Not being able to have in depth convos with my 5 hearing siblings who are mostly much older than me and past learning new languages? My many cousins, uncles and aunties and grandparents? My friends at school and now uni?

And I would have never gone to a school for the deaf either, my parents flat out refused to send us 4 hours up country to a shit school with shit teachers/staff.

Some of you guys never seem to consider us as having our own identities, our own thoughts about how we see ourselves and identities. You never think about the fact that we've used our CIs/HAs since birth (in my case, 3 years old) and it's become part of us. You don't think about how our hearing has impacted us - my deaf sister plays the piano the best in my family, and she used to play for hours during the afternoons and because of that I have an appreciation for piano music, my particular favourite piece being Ballade Pour Adeline. I would not be me if I hadn't gotten my CI at ten.
You just do this fake lament about how no one wants to 'emulate' "deafies" and it's just insincere and unappreciative of the fact that we're all different and live our lives in different ways.

How do you know it is a shit school with shit teachers and staff? Been there personally?

 

[ambrosia]

I really haven't found anything super benifical about being oral only regarding employment....hearing people can and do pick up that something is off with your voice or response times....Guess what? They usually assume that a deaf voice or slow response times means that you're not exactly bright.

That's a nice non answer. Honestly I can't take you seriously. After being in this site for over a year the only thing you ever post about is deaf schools/education and speech therapy. Ever. You never have anything to say about anything else. That's an obsession, and it's not healthy, and it isn't objective. That loss of objectivity makes your words almost meaningless to me. I actually can totally understand tomm stopping the lurking just to address your posts.

 

[kokonut]

Or suffering from dementia.

Approximately 13% of the U.S. population are those 65 and older according to the 2010 US Census. That would approximately translate to 4.6 million of them with hearing loss out of the 36 million people with hearing loss in the United States. You still have a size-able population of 31 million with hearing loss under the age of 65.

 

[kokonut]

Why is it "emulating"? Have you considered the fact that most deaf kids come from hearing parents? What's wrong with children knowing their parents language(s) if there is a way to access it via cochlear implant/hearing aids. Sometimes that doesn't work and of course the main language should be sign language.

Would I be better off being restricted in my town to only communicating with my deaf friends and my 2 deaf siblings and my parents? Not being able to have in depth convos with my 5 hearing siblings who are mostly much older than me and past learning new languages? My many cousins, uncles and aunties and grandparents? My friends at school and now uni?

And I would have never gone to a school for the deaf either, my parents flat out refused to send us 4 hours up country to a shit school with shit teachers/staff.

Some of you guys never seem to consider us as having our own identities, our own thoughts about how we see ourselves and identities. You never think about the fact that we've used our CIs/HAs since birth (in my case, 3 years old ETA HAs from 3 yo, CI from 10) and it's become part of us. You don't think about how our hearing has impacted us - my deaf sister plays the piano the best in my family, and she used to play for hours during the afternoons and because of that I have an appreciation for piano music, my particular favourite piece being Ballade Pour Adeline. I would not be me if I hadn't gotten my CI at ten.
You just do this fake lament about how no one wants to 'emulate' "deafies" and it's just insincere and unappreciative of the fact that we're all different and live our lives in different ways.

God forbid people don't go around and accuse people with limited sight for trying to emulate people's vision that are fine. Sometimes you have people who have never ever heard any sound in their life and don't have any concept of sound much like a blind person who do not have the concept of color, and it'd be fruitless to try and describe to a blind person what color is like. The same idea when it comes to hearing sound whether it's music or the spoken language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59YN8_lg6-U - Describing color to a blind person

Tomm, there is nothing wrong with using the same spoken language as your parents. There is nothing wrong on liking what you hear. I feel very comfortable with my spoken language. And I love what I can hear. I'm quite fortunate to be in a time when hearing technology made it possible. And if other people have a problem with that about you then they have personal issues for some reasons.

 

[kokonut]

Tomm,

My piano piece to you...and yes, that's me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZRV-xqKEoU

 

[kokonut]

Tom are you positive you're not just parroting the "OMG it's SO wonderful to be able to hear and function as a "healthy normal" person that so many oral deaf kids get? I have hearing friends who are very professionally involved in the D/deaf communties.......They say even the best sucesses still struggle..When the kids are given the addition of ASL/Deaf culture.my friends descbe it as them being let out of a cage.Yes,it's not as bad as the old days when a powerful CI/HA only gave a small percentage of what was said.....but there is a REASON why CI/HA folks are described as HARD of hearing.....it's HARD for us to hear.
I say this as someone who is an EXCELLENT hearing aid user. I get told that I don't talk like a deaf person,I am GUESS WHAT....an AURAL learner.....Guess what? Even with all those advantages, I still have issues....I'm still using my weakest sense.It takes a LOT of energy for HOH people to "hear"....it's never going to be as good as hearing person hearing.....That's a FACT....why does that make you angry?
CIs and hearing aids do not make a dhh person hearing......Are you perfectly well functioning in every and any hearing sitution?I doubt it...Research has indicated that virtually ALL CI people still use the whole spectrum of dhh accomondations.....there are CIers who use 'terps,there are CIers who use the whole spectrum of HOH style accomondations....Very few (including ex hearing implantees) function as hearing..................and here's a thought....you may function very well with your CI, but auditory oral/auditory verbal trains a dhh kid to not be able to function without hearing devices...
How can a dhh kid function if their aid breaks or if their CI malfunctions or if they're in less then prime listening situtions? A/O,AV kids are LOST in that sitution......Not to mention...what about when you enter the dating world? Are you really going to ask your date to use an FM device?

Most HH people would require certain accommodation based on different needs. Accommodation varies.

BTW, HH also includes people with mild hearing loss, too.

Don't talk like a deaf person? What do you mean? Do you have a video of yourself talking?