Is it really so bad to know SEE (Sign Exact English?)

[shel90]

So, no languages other than English use invented codes in order to learn their languages.

An English speaker does not use an invented code in order learn Greek.

The whole point is...hearing children are NEVER subjected to invented codes the way deaf children are.

 

[GrendelQ]

I meant to learn the language.

As an English speaker, if I wanted to learn Greek, would I use a made-up code that was neither English nor Greek in order to learn Greek?

Typically you would learn a written mode of a language, such as Greek, from its spoken form, learned first. The unique situation here is that deaf children without access to sound can't learn effectively to read and write from the spoken form, hence the use of a signed mode of that language to make it accessible. ASL is not English, and doesn't have a grammar that matches that of English, so it can't be used for a one to one mapping onto English. Or Greek.

 

[GrendelQ]

The whole point is...hearing children are NEVER subjected to invented codes the way deaf children are.

Right. Because they can hear, so they use the spoken mode of English to learn to read and write the written form. They are "subjected" to the spoken mode.

 

[shel90]

Right. Because they can hear, so they use the spoken mode of English to learn to read and write the written form. They are "subjected" to the spoken mode.

Nope, they are not "subjected"

They are acquiring a language.

ASL would be acquiring a language for deaf kids as well.

I ask you pls not to twist my words.

It is true that deaf children are subjected to invented systems to acquire languages. It is a fact.

 

[shel90]

Typically you would learn a written mode of a language, such as Greek, from its spoken form, learned first. The unique situation here is that deaf children without access to sound can't learn effectively to read and write from the spoken form, hence the use of a signed mode of that language to make it accessible. ASL is not English, and doesn't have a grammar that matches that of English, so it can't be used for a one to one mapping onto English. Or Greek.

I just posted research that attaining fluency in ASL does not intervere one's ability to attain fluency in English. It showed the total opposite. Why do you keep making it seem like ASL would impede a child's ability to achieve proficiency in English?

 

[GrendelQ]

Nope, they are not "subjected"

They are acquiring a language.

ASL would be acquiring a language for deaf kids as well.

I ask you pls not to twist my words.

It is true that deaf children are subjected to invented systems to acquire languages. It is a fact.

I didn't twist your words. I used the same ones you did. Apparently when played back to you they appear twisted.

If you read again, you'll see that I agree with you. But OK, I won't use your word "subjected". Deaf children are provided a coded system to learn to read and write that hearing children are not. Because hearing children use a code -- spoken language -- with a one to one analog in the written language, using the same grammar, same vocabulary, replacing utterances with the code/symbols that is written language. Deaf children without access to sound don't have that code. They are provided another, whether it's visual phonics, cued speech, SEE, fingerspelling, what have you, to learn to read and write.

 

[GrendelQ]

I just posted research that attaining fluency in ASL does not intervere one's ability to attain fluency in English. It showed the total opposite. Why do you keep making it seem like ASL would impede a child's ability to achieve proficiency in English?

HUH? Show me where?

Are you just making that accusation up (as usual) or did you really interpret that from one of my posts?

 

[Reba]

Typically you would learn a written mode of a language, such as Greek, from its spoken form, learned first.

That might be typical but it's not necessary.

The unique situation here is that deaf children without access to sound can't learn effectively to read and write from the spoken form, hence the use of a signed mode of that language to make it accessible.

Yet, deaf children "without access to sound" do learn to read and write, even if it's not "from the spoken form," and they can do it without an artificial code system.

Let me put it another way.

English-speaking people can learn ASL in a voice-off class without using an intermediate artificial code (such as SEE), and without any prior exposure to sign language. My first level of ASL was taught to me by a Deaf instructor, voice-off, all with visual references. And I don't mean just writing a list of words on the board and showing sign equivalents.

ASL is not English, and doesn't have a grammar that matches that of English, so it can't be used for a one to one mapping onto English. Or Greek.

English is not Greek/Chinese/Swahili/whatever. English does NOT use the same alphabet or grammar as many other languages, yet English-speaking people learn those other languages without creating "codes" for the process.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to make the language learning process any more difficult than it is.

 

[Reba]

...Deaf children are provided a coded system to learn to read and write that hearing children are not. Because hearing children use a code -- spoken language -- with a one to one analog in the written language, using the same grammar, same vocabulary, replacing utterances with the code/symbols that is written language. Deaf children without access to sound don't have that code. They are provided another, whether it's visual phonics, cued speech, SEE, fingerspelling, what have you, to learn to read and write.

If they have fingerspelling, then why invent a code system? It's not necessary. If they are already fluent in ASL, why teach them a system that adds another layer that they have to maneuver thru in order to learn how to read and write English?

Do you seriously believe that ASL Deaf couldn't read or write English until Zeus delivered SEE on a bolt of lightning? Have you read anything written by ASL Deaf prior to 1972? How did Deaf students get their degrees from Gallaudet in the 100 years prior to SEE?

 

[Reba]

...Are you just making that accusation up (as usual) or did you really interpret that from one of my posts?

Now's your chance to make your stance clear.

Do you believe that a child who uses ASL can learn to read and write English without using any form of SEE or signed English?

 

[saywhatkid]

 

[shel90]

I didn't twist your words. I used the same ones you did. Apparently when played back to you they appear twisted.

If you read again, you'll see that I agree with you. But OK, I won't use your word "subjected". Deaf children are provided a coded system to learn to read and write that hearing children are not. Because hearing children use a code -- spoken language -- with a one to one analog in the written language, using the same grammar, same vocabulary, replacing utterances with the code/symbols that is written language. Deaf children without access to sound don't have that code. They are provided another, whether it's visual phonics, cued speech, SEE, fingerspelling, what have you, to learn to read and write.

You have a history of twisting words so I am asking you kindly pls not to do that.

You are using my words to refer hearing children when you know it was uneccessary. You are a smart woman and you know that hearing children arent "subjected" to spoken language.

 

[shel90]

HUH? Show me where?

Are you just making that accusation up (as usual) or did you really interpret that from one of my posts?

The unique situation here is that deaf children without access to sound can't learn effectively to read and write from the spoken form

You asked me to show you where so I will grant your request. Here is where you gave me the impression. Deaf children without access to sounds use ASL, correct so is that what you are implying? That they are unable to learn English because they cant hear or because they are ASL users?

 

[Frisky Feline]

Now's your chance to make your stance clear.

Do you believe that a child who uses ASL can learn to read and write English without using any form of SEE or signed English?

That is what it happened to me when i learned ASL at a much later, and i was able to pick up how to write and read because it does make sense to me. I had a SEE upbringing that I ve been struggling the concept of writing and reading due to lacking of expressive language in my eye.

 

[Frisky Feline]

HUH? Show me where?

Are you just making that accusation up (as usual) or did you really interpret that from one of my posts?

You have a history of twisting words so I am asking you kindly pls not to do that.

You are using my words to refer hearing children when you know it was uneccessary. You are a smart woman and you know that hearing children arent "subjected" to spoken language.

The unique situation here is that deaf children without access to sound can't learn effectively to read and write from the spoken form

You asked me to show you where so I will grant your request. Here is where you gave me the impression. Deaf children without access to sounds use ASL, correct so is that what you are implying? That they are unable to learn English because they cant hear or because they are ASL users?

GQ, i d like to know as well what you and shel were talking about. That's what I am under the impression what you thought without access to sound that they would not be able to pick up English.

 

[shel90]

GQ, i d like to know as well what you and shel were talking about. That's what I am under the impression what you thought without access to sound that they would not be able to pick up English.

I would like to know as well..

It doesnt make sense because many deaf people who use ASL have learned to read and write the spoken language just fine.

 

[Bottesini]

I would like to know as well..

It doesnt make sense because many deaf people who use ASL have learned to read and write the spoken language just fine.

Go back historically, and deaf people were perfectly literate in writing English long before the Milan conference. Before the oral era, and before there were and MCE's.

You can get books written by deaf people from that long ago era free as ebooks from Amazon, so there are plenty of examples how ASL instruction worked in deaf schools, producing graduates with no difficulties in English.

 

[Bottesini]

I didn't twist your words. I used the same ones you did. Apparently when played back to you they appear twisted.

If you read again, you'll see that I agree with you. But OK, I won't use your word "subjected". Deaf children are provided a coded system to learn to read and write that hearing children are not. Because hearing children use a code -- spoken language -- with a one to one analog in the written language, using the same grammar, same vocabulary, replacing utterances with the code/symbols that is written language. Deaf children without access to sound don't have that code. They are provided another, whether it's visual phonics, cued speech, SEE, fingerspelling, what have you, to learn to read and write.

You may be about ready to implode again, as you often do when you try to get so smart.

This does remind me of the time you were having a fight with someone about the inadvisability of putting all the pictures and info about your child in public, and you decided it would be appropriate to say I must be some sort of pervert as you had seen a video of my granddaughter and me signing...

Lest you say not so, I am pretty sure the mods do keep these weird posts archived after they ban someone for such insane and inappropriate behavior.

 

[Frisky Feline]

You may be about ready to implode again, as you often do when you try to get so smart.

This does remind me of the time you were having a fight with someone about the inadvisability of putting all the pictures and info about your child in public, and you decided it would be appropriate to say I must be some sort of pervert as you had seen a video of my granddaughter and me signing...

Lest you say not so, I am pretty sure the mods do keep these weird posts archived after they ban someone for such insane and inappropriate behavior.

Yes. Always something.

 

[CSign]

Go back historically, and deaf people were perfectly literate in writing English long before the Milan conference. Before the oral era, and before there were and MCE's.

You can get books written by deaf people from that long ago era free as ebooks from Amazon, so there are plenty of examples how ASL instruction worked in deaf schools, producing graduates with no difficulties in English.

Of course there were people who were literate in English, however overall a significant number of deaf students were graduating with limited English skills. This is why SEE was created. Not to take ASL away from the Deaf community, but to provide another means of learning English because whatever was happening was not working.