If someone has 70db HL and gets 70db HA gain, does he hear 0db?

deafdude1

New Member
This is a serious question and something ive been wondering for a while now. If a hearing aid gives you as much gain as your hearing loss, does it completely cancel your loss and therefore result in you being aided to 0db? Say someone has 70db hearing loss and wears a hearing aid programmed for 70db gain(which may not even be the max gain the HA is capable of!) would he have an aided score of 0db? If not, what could be the reasons? :hmm:
 

Mockingbird

New Member
While the sound may be comparable, the HA wouldn't be able to process everything correctly. You would probably still be unable to understand it well because damage to your ear would stop you from being able to discriminate sounds.
 

candybrowneyes

Active Member
My hearing aids give me the gain of loss i have and I have a papers stating that in a quiet setting I can hear 100% in my left ear and 90% in my right... but if you put me in a room with noise and people its just not that way.
 

deafdyke

Well-Known Member
Just wondering....why are you so interested in seeing if HAs provide perfect "like hearing" gain? You really aren't missing all that much by not hearing to 0 dcb.
As a matter of fact.....wouldn't it be almost impossible to get aided hearing to 0 dcb? I know for example that many kids with mild hearing losses aren't aided b/c of distortion issues.
 

Shi-Ku Chishiki

New Member
Reminds Me Of A Science Question..

Your db question reminds me of a science question I saw one time.

If you have a automobile tire and rim... and together they weigh 40 pounds, does it now weigh 70 pounds if you put 30 pounds of air in it?

Shi-Ku (Inquiring minds want to know.) Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
 

SteveESP52

New Member
Deafdude,

I understand you are trying to really understand what level of hearing ability someone with a CI has. This is the only way to make an educated decission. Have you spoken with an audiologist who programs CI's and is familiar with the programming options? Have you attended any CI meeting in your area either associated with a University or one of the CI manufacturers?

There are two meetings this weekend in my area. One by Cochlear in Ann Arbor MI on Saturday and the Hearing Loss Association of America Michigan Cochlear Implant Chapter in Grand Rapids, MI on Sunday. These meetings are where I learned a lot about what CI's are capable of and was able to speak with other users regarding their experience. I still go to the meetings to share my experiences.

In regards to hearing at 0db. I asked the question of my Audiologist during my Friday mapping session and was told that some centers adjust the audiogram 25db to reflect a 0db "normal" audiogram appearance. We looked at the programming and the lowest db that the CI will start sending stimulation for and found it to be 24db. Both mine are set at 25db. The loud sounds around 75db and above start compressing above that level so it does not get painfully loud but still alows me to distinguish between the volume. Sounds like air compressors, air nailers, gun shots, clapping, drag cars for CI users may not get the extreme loud shock as someone with normal hearing may experience since the CI just won't send that level of stimulation. Basically a concert at 120db may sound like 85db for a CI user. Still plenty loud. At least this is my experience and it all depends on the T and C levels set during the mapping session. If you set them to high, there may be times where hearing is uncomfortable.

Regarding HA, it has been a while since I used mine, but also know I was just trying to get it set so I could hear speech as clearly as possible. I really wasn't worried about hearing everything.

As far as my ability to hear sounds today, my audiologist tested my speech understanding on my bilateral CI (activated January 2009) on Friday and scored 97%. My first CI (activated January 2007) scored 100% when it was tested I think between month 2 and 3 so March-April 2007 but that was my only option to hear so my brain worked that CI exclusively. My bilateral CI activation has taken longer which has been expected but after this last appointment, it is a LOT nicer. Easier to listen to, better sound, easier to understand speech, more comfortable. I can also say that I can use the various speeds almost seamlessly unlike my first one. I currently have 900, 1200, 2400 and 3500. The only difference is how I have the "equilizer" set by modifing the T and C levels. Some programs have more low or high frequency gain. I tried this as a test.

Ultimately, I'm still learning to use my bilateral CI with my first one but so far, it has been great.

Again, I hope you are able to find the information you need.
BTW, I have tried to find my audiograms to share and have been unable to locate them. I have another appointment in early June and hope to remember to ask for them for you. Sorry I forgot.
Steve
 

john57

New Member
Steve,

I believe that the lowest db that the implant will start to start sending stimulation is heavily depended on what the sensitivity control is set for. The sensitivity control tells the implant what db level of sound before the external processor will send to the implant. One CI moment that I had was able to hear a piece of paper failing on to a carpet floor. I must be hearing at a low dB level. I am not sure if the 25dB is the lowest hard limit that the CI Implant can start stimulation since I have seen for some at certain frequencies can do better that 25dB. Some day I will confirm what the lowest dB level that the implant can start sending stimulation but on my implant I use the sensitivity at 8 which is far from the maximum setting that the implant can start stimulation but that works for me most of the time.
 

SteveESP52

New Member
John,
I run sensitivity at 12 almost all the time. When I'm in the car and not using an auto sensitivity program, I back the sensitivity down to 4. When I'm watching TV, I bump the sensitivity to 16 especially when it is late and the family has gone to bed as long as the refrigerator, furnace or dryer are not running. If they are running, I back off the sensitivity and turn up the volume otherwise there is just to much noise to compete with to understand the TV easily. Turning down the sensitivity (turning up the minimum db being processed) fixes a lot of the issue.

As you say, works for me. Everyone has their own settings that work and what they like. This is why it is so important to experiment with your programs, speeds, T and C levels and press your audiologist to work the CI to help in your own situation. There are so many options for changing how it works. For me, 1800 speed works best in my first CI and 900 in my second. No idea why but I'll take it as it works really well. I'm playing around with the speeds on my second CI to see if some of the other speeds work any better.

Mentioning CI moments. A couple weeks ago, I had one when I was in a Dealer parts department and about 40-50 feet away, I saw someone walking up some concrete steps and actually heard each step. It actually took me a minute to realize what I just heard. Foot steps on concrete steps 40-50 feet away in a noisy dealer service department. This is yet one more time when I realized how well my two CI's are working to let me hear sounds.
 

deafdude1

New Member
While the sound may be comparable, the HA wouldn't be able to process everything correctly. You would probably still be unable to understand it well because damage to your ear would stop you from being able to discriminate sounds.

I guess if your loss is profound enough like Hear Again's. But I looked at Phi4Sius thread and he hears perfect with high gain analog HAs! I hear most environmental sounds and some speech thanks to still having alot of residual low frequency hearing(which I made a thread about that) Anyway im still curious if 0db can be achieved in some cases.

My hearing aids give me the gain of loss i have and I have a papers stating that in a quiet setting I can hear 100% in my left ear and 90% in my right... but if you put me in a room with noise and people its just not that way.

Even hearing people can't properly hear in noise. I can't tell you how many times ive talked to hearing people who say "what" or "there's too much noise, I can't hear you" meanwhile im understanding what they say by reading lips. I can't hear 100% like you can, but im still happy with what I do hear.

Just wondering....why are you so interested in seeing if HAs provide perfect "like hearing" gain? You really aren't missing all that much by not hearing to 0 dcb.
As a matter of fact.....wouldn't it be almost impossible to get aided hearing to 0 dcb? I know for example that many kids with mild hearing losses aren't aided b/c of distortion issues.

Id like to get all the low frequency hearing I can to compenstate my lack of high frequency hearing. I know itll make a huge difference because 3 years ago I was at a hearing dispenser and he tried giving me reduced gains in the low frequencies and I could hardly hear a thing. Changing the gains in the high frequencies didn't make a noticable difference.

I would never bother with HAs if my unaided hearing was near normal. My dad once tried HAs and while sounds were louder, they were also distorted. He hears enough without HAs that he isn't missing much and sounds are already loud enough, especially in the lower frequencies(he has a typical high frequency loss of people his age)

*****To the other replies, this thread isn't about CI so I am going to start a new thread for that. Id like to stay on topic in my thread and only discuss HAs for once. I still have not directly been answered why someone with 70db HL wearing HAs with 70db gain can or can't hear at 0db. Id like to know why or why not.*****
 

faire_jour

New Member
Even hearing people can't properly hear in noise. I can't tell you how many times ive talked to hearing people who say "what" or "there's too much noise, I can't hear you" meanwhile im understanding what they say by reading lips. I can't hear 100% like you can, but im still happy with what I do hear.



*****To the other replies, this thread isn't about CI so I am going to start a new thread for that. Id like to stay on topic in my thread and only discuss HAs for once. I still have not directly been answered why someone with 70db HL wearing HAs with 70db gain can or can't hear at 0db. Id like to know why or why not.*****

As a hearing person, I hear just fine in noise. As long as the person is close to me, I have been able to talk through rock concerts. Hearing in extreme noise is more difficult than having a normal conversation, but in "normal noise" (ie restaurant, conference, outside with traffic) I have never had a problem.

Miss Kat's first audiogram, her loss was 15 db sloping down to 60. She was aided to 15 to 20 across all frequencies. They did not bring her up to 0. 15 was good enough.
 

deafdude1

New Member
As a hearing person, I hear just fine in noise. As long as the person is close to me, I have been able to talk through rock concerts. Hearing in extreme noise is more difficult than having a normal conversation, but in "normal noise" (ie restaurant, conference, outside with traffic) I have never had a problem.

Miss Kat's first audiogram, her loss was 15 db sloping down to 60. She was aided to 15 to 20 across all frequencies. They did not bring her up to 0. 15 was good enough.

I am guessing that most people I find in places such as rock concerts already have a noise-induced hearing loss. I had to shout in their ear before they could hear me. I often find myself shouting even in "normal noise" in order for others to hear me. I am impressed how good your hearing is, better than almost anyone ive met. :D

I guess there was no need to add gain to a 15db loss, the resulting distortion would have been worse than the extra volume. But in my case I need all the low frequency gain I can get in order to compenstate for having no high frequency hearing. I not only hear louder, I also hear better by boosting my lows.(I made a thread with an article on the importance of residual low frequency hearing and how they prove that hearing at even 250Hz boosted speech comphrension.)
 

deafdude1

New Member
Id like to find out once for all if it's possible or not. No one knows for sure and ive been researching on Google for case studies and answers. I know by now ill never hear at 0db but still not sure about those with lesser losses than me. What would happen if a person with a loss of say 40db, 50db, 60db, even 70db has their HAs programmed to give a gain equal to that loss? Wouldn't it turn/amplify a 0db sound loud enough so they hear at threshold levels? Or is something preventing this from happening?

I read around that people with a mild or moderate HL can expect to hear between 0-10db with HAs. Those with severe losses get 10-30db and with profound it's 30-50db. Is your loss severe by now? Then yea youd hear in the 10-30db range depending on the HA, gain, programming. This is what I hear right now in the low frequencies.

So yea I am wrong about 0db hearing for anyone with severe or profound loss. I am still reading around if im right on 0-10db being expected for mild and moderate losses. I do know 10db is possible and ive seen people get that far. Note that better thresholds don't mean louder but being able to hear very faint sounds. My new HAs were louder but they also let me hear all kinds of faint sounds I couldn't hear with my old HAs.
 

faire_jour

New Member
Id like to find out once for all if it's possible or not. No one knows for sure and ive been researching on Google for case studies and answers. I know by now ill never hear at 0db but still not sure about those with lesser losses than me. What would happen if a person with a loss of say 40db, 50db, 60db, even 70db has their HAs programmed to give a gain equal to that loss? Wouldn't it turn/amplify a 0db sound loud enough so they hear at threshold levels? Or is something preventing this from happening?

I read around that people with a mild or moderate HL can expect to hear between 0-10db with HAs. Those with severe losses get 10-30db and with profound it's 30-50db. Is your loss severe by now? Then yea youd hear in the 10-30db range depending on the HA, gain, programming. This is what I hear right now in the low frequencies.

So yea I am wrong about 0db hearing for anyone with severe or profound loss. I am still reading around if im right on 0-10db being expected for mild and moderate losses. I do know 10db is possible and ive seen people get that far. Note that better thresholds don't mean louder but being able to hear very faint sounds. My new HAs were louder but they also let me hear all kinds of faint sounds I couldn't hear with my old HAs.

I have never heard of anyone being aided to 0. Please show me where you saw that. Don't show me your BS math, show me someone who is aided above 15 db.
 

LadySekhmet

New Member
I have never heard of anyone being aided to 0. Please show me where you saw that. Don't show me your BS math, show me someone who is aided above 15 db.

I agree.

In order to hear at 0 db ALL frequencies, you'll have to be hearing and have ALL of the hair cells available for it to function. That's common knowledge.

Now, if you want to hear aided at 125hz, you'll have to have every single hair cells stimulated where that frequency can stimulate. So...that's hundreds of hair cells just to hear at 125.

It's pretty much impossible to be aided 0 frequencies all across the board and even CI as well.
 

deafdude1

New Member
I have never heard of anyone being aided to 0. Please show me where you saw that. Don't show me your BS math, show me someone who is aided above 15 db.

Hear Again was able to be aided to 10db when she had a moderate loss. I am hearing at 12.5db at 250Hz and it's possible ill get to 10db when they are reprogrammed. I will search on Google and post all the sources here. To be honest, I also never heard of anyone being aided to 0db, but ive been told it's possible for mild and moderate losses, but not severe or profound.

I agree.

In order to hear at 0 db ALL frequencies, you'll have to be hearing and have ALL of the hair cells available for it to function. That's common knowledge.

Now, if you want to hear aided at 125hz, you'll have to have every single hair cells stimulated where that frequency can stimulate. So...that's hundreds of hair cells just to hear at 125.

It's pretty much impossible to be aided 0 frequencies all across the board and even CI as well.

So anyone with a hearing loss can never be aided to 0db because they are missing some hair cells? What would happen if a person with xxdb loss recieved yydb gain that is equal to xxdb loss, would that person still be hearing worse than 0db? Where would the extra gain go? Would it make any difference, would sounds be louder? Would it have any increase on threshold levels? That's one thing im wondering, maybe you know?
 

faire_jour

New Member
Hear Again was able to be aided to 10db when she had a moderate loss. I am hearing at 12.5db at 250Hz and it's possible ill get to 10db when they are reprogrammed. I will search on Google and post all the sources here. To be honest, I also never heard of anyone being aided to 0db, but ive been told it's possible for mild and moderate losses, but not severe or profound.



So anyone with a hearing loss can never be aided to 0db because they are missing some hair cells? What would happen if a person with xxdb loss recieved yydb gain that is equal to xxdb loss, would that person still be hearing worse than 0db? Where would the extra gain go? That's one thing im wondering, maybe you know?

You have a professional audiogram that says that you are hearing at 12.5 db?
 

lovezebras

Active Member
it dosn't work like that! U can't use basic math skills and apply it to a hearing loss. And if your audi is giving u these notions he or she ought to be fired or given a knowledge slap.
 

dreama

New Member
I don't know.
I suspect that there is more to normal hearing then normal frequencies. My hearing loss ranged from 40 db to 80 db before I lost my hearing altogether. This loss isn't too severe but I had a major struggle with auditory imput.

I have a blind friend with 80 db that can hear tapes and his talking computer. However I couldn't. I don't think I would manage to hear as well as he could even when my hearing loss was only 40db.
 
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