how has cochlear implants controversy died out?

ambrosia

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I think the controversy has shifted from whether or not to implant a child (which is now commonly accepted) to whether or not a child should be raised with ASL or English, as Shel said.

As for hearing capabilities, children without physical abnormalities of the ear are able to hear speech on the same level as hearing children, EXCEPT in noisy environments. But they have come out with the t-mic and other things to help a person hear more clearly in loud surroundings, they just don't like to give these to children because they want the child to learn to listen through the sounds. I know nothing about implanted adults or how it differs from children.

Oh you'll still people on here talking about how you should let the child be "natural" and should wait until they are older so they can make the decision themselves. Thing is if you wait until they're 16/18...the choice is pretty much taken away from them. hey might decide they want one, but they will never have as much success with it as they would if they had been implanted as a toddler.

A deaf adult would have to learn what sounds are, just like a child. BUT this is long long long after a brain is really equipped to be learning such things, so it would be much much harder for them. Just because all of a sudden this deaf adult could "hear" English, that doesn't mean they're going to understand it. Not anymore than if someone starting speaking Russian to me, oh I could hear the words coming out of their mouth, but it'd be a string of nonsense gibberish.
 

dogmom

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I think the "nobility" of most any kind of large-scale corporate enterprise ranges from questionable to non-existent. "Noble" is a concept with a lot of connotations and historically has been coded thought for many injustices and self-righteousness.

CI companies as entities are there to make money by explicitly or implicitly implying that someone needs fixing because something is wrong with them. Children learn this whether they are told or not.

How is "success" defined? Whose success?
 

Grummer

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not fair on reason ruin on SPARC cause ruin banned on ASL Sign language :eek3: oh no way no reason SPARC ban ASL mess on not fair my community. deaf community want to control to ASL, we don't understand. oral and ESL sign language seems look likes strictlest AGB because strictly.. what is happened? we don't understand... but research AGB also but we don't trust to SPARC bit problem on relate to difficult to SHARP/SPARC. it is difficult

now could you explain WHAT IS SPARC, who's them?
 

Smithtr

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now could you explain WHAT IS SPARC, who's them?



Welcome to SPARC

http://www.elks-sask.org/programs_sparc.asp

I against to SPARC, Sparc is very control on people deaf destory.
SPARC banned ASL community.

that is why. deaf people upset for SPARC. that is why not fair. regret it. no deny people expose to teach sign language SPACR secret to won't tell to parents.. they serious illegal is very break on code ethic. That is sadly. Screw up on system I heard on someone... that is why. people deaf frustrated saskatchewan opposed to SPARC reason hurting. SPARC should be never to force to wearing to cochlear implant. that is sadly on community small!

encourage to people said to protect sign language. Deaf community.
I know difficult
 
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CI companies as entities are there to make money by explicitly or implicitly implying that someone needs fixing because something is wrong with them. Children learn this whether they are told or not.

How is "success" defined? Whose success?

The adults who opt to be implanted are inclined to agree that something is wrong and needs fixing. They don't need anyone to tell them that.... it's just plainly obvious when they lose their hearing.

Because of the results we see in adults and in prelingually deafened infants as documented through research, implanting infants will be recommended by physicians where it has been diagnosed as appropriate. No one is going to CI World down at the Mall having product pushed by sales people on a commission.

I'm sure you have similar disdain for wheelchair and limb prosthetic companies. People and children should just drag themselves along the ground as God intended rather than be told by those nefarious corporations that they need fixing.
 

deafdyke

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I think the "nobility" of most any kind of large-scale corporate enterprise ranges from questionable to non-existent. "Noble" is a concept with a lot of connotations and historically has been coded thought for many injustices and self-righteousness.

CI companies as entities are there to make money by explicitly or implicitly implying that someone needs fixing because something is wrong with them. Children learn this whether they are told or not.

How is "success" defined? Whose success?

Good point! There were kids who were implanted as toddlers who learned to speak. It just seems like a lot of the fussing about "best performance" is very arbitary. What does best performance mean? Babies and kids STILL need spoken language therapy.....many of them STILL need intense spoken language therapy or even attedance at a speech school and have special educaitonal needs.(especially as things get harder) The thing is, even with the best case scenerio kids with CIs and aids are HOH. That means HARD of hearing. It's HARD for them to hear! They will never BE hearing. What they hear is fake artifical hearing. That is never going to be as good as real hearing. And yes, the CI companies stand to GAIN from as many implants as possible. They really don't give a crap about how well a kid hears. They just care about moving more product.
 

AshJagla

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I wouldn't quite say that. Yes, a lot of implantee kids can "hear" at HOH levels, but there are still kids who don't hear as well.......it's just that that pool is a lot smaller, since they loosened up the implantation criteria. There are still kids who don't get a lot of benifit from CI. I actually think that the sucesses may be due to kids who got SOME benifit from aids getting implanted.(ie they could hear some speech sounds or some enviromental sounds with aids.. Their brain knew how to process sound, so they have an advantage over those who had no previous exposure to sound).....That then makes the number of kids who don't benifit from CI appear a lot smaller. And before I'm attacked, I've heard a lot of really unsavory stories about how the CI companies and oral schools manipulate data. Remember the CI companies are basicly in the business for ONE REASON. PROFIT. The more they make their product appear desirable, the more money they make!

I just want to note here that some children can hear CLEARLY with CIs, all ranges and frequencies, but have trouble listening in noisy environments because they are not able to take advantage of our natural anatomy, specifically the outer ear the automatically helps shield from sounds that are unimportant. AB has the T-Mic that is the first CI microphone placed in the natural opening of the ear and users receive much clearer sounds when using it. They also have listening software that helps weed out unwanted noise as well. Unfortunately, both of these things are often withheld from small children so that they are forced to learn to listen through all the bustle.

I understand why you prefer ASL, why you would want a child to have ASL, I am currently FIGHTING to get my child ASL, but what I don't understand is what you have against CIs when Deaf children are obviously benefiting from them. Even if it isn't 100% perfect, it's sound to a child who would have otherwise never heard a thing. Why is this bad?

I'm not offended and irritated, I'm just curious. I WANT to understand your point of view.
 

deafdyke

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Everyone has an unsavory story. It's known as gossip in the real world and isn't taken seriously.

Science/Research comes first and then the CI companies respond to the need. I haven't seen any of the companies engaged in unethical sales geared towards children. They are closely monitored by the FDA in the U.S. with strict controls on the marketing and selling of the devices. They are medical devices, not implantable hearing aids... as much as you attempt to paint them as so. Yes, CI Companies are a business... with a noble cause behind it. That cause is what drives the dedicated people who work at them, usually audiologists with doctorates. We aren't talking about automobile dealers here who just want to make a sale. These are people who actually want to help make a difference in someone's life.

I have yet to ever see you cite hard data to back up your statements, just the same old phrases like: "a lot of implantee kids can "hear" at HOH levels." What's this "a lot?" Numbers please. What's this "HOH levels." Decibels/audiogram examples, please.

Bleeding Purist, you must be a sucker for those "You NEED those prescription random medication" commericals.
There are kids and CI users who are "almost hearing" with CI, but the results have been very mixed. A member attended a CI presentation, and was asking about how well CI kids do. The reps from the companies said that yes....there are SOME kids who are minimal accomondation sucesses who don't even need speech therapy.....but they also said more of the population function as HOH. Yes, there's been studies....but a lot of those studies are very carefully selected. Did you know for example that the reason why CID and the other oral schools get such "good" results is b/c they ask the kids who aren't performing at the high end of the bell curve to leave? I did half believe a former poster when she claimed that kids spoken language/speech skills are so much better. Then I went to a conference, and met a friend there who works with CI kids. She was all " you don't talk like a deaf person." I thought she was talking about language levels and said so. She was all "No, I work with CI and deaf kids......you don't talk like a deaf person!?!!?"
Not to mention that there are a plethora of CI students at various and sundry schools for the Deaf.....some are functionally HOH yes, but some are also not great users. I'd be very very suspciious about the claims of a capitlist corparation.
 

deafdyke

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I just want to note here that some children can hear CLEARLY with CIs, all ranges and frequencies, but have trouble listening in noisy environments because they are not able to take advantage of our natural anatomy, specifically the outer ear the automatically helps shield from sounds that are unimportant. AB has the T-Mic that is the first CI microphone placed in the natural opening of the ear and users receive much clearer sounds when using it. They also have listening software that helps weed out unwanted noise as well. Unfortunately, both of these things are often withheld from small children so that they are forced to learn to listen through all the bustle.

I understand why you prefer ASL, why you would want a child to have ASL, I am currently FIGHTING to get my child ASL, but what I don't understand is what you have against CIs when Deaf children are obviously benefiting from them. Even if it isn't 100% perfect, it's sound to a child who would have otherwise never heard a thing. Why is this bad?

I'm not offended and irritated, I'm just curious. I WANT to understand your point of view.

Ash, no I'm not against them......I simply think that people need to understand that the overwhelming majority of pediatric implantees function as HOH. HOH is not hearing....It's very often presented as hearing, but artifical hearing (whether through HAs or CIs) is not the same as the way hearing people think of as hearing. It's amazing.......I mean I love my hearing aids, but I also know that what I hear through them isn't the same as what hearing people hear through them. Same with CIs.....I have a lot of friends who have them (b/c they maxed out on aids or had recruitment/progressive losses) and they love them.....but it's not like hearing person hearing at all. Also technology and devices DO have significent limitations. If HAs/CIs were so awesome, then how come late deafened people are always looking for a cure? They miss normal hearing....Nuff said! Hearing for a dhh person is like a HOLOGRAM of what a hearing person hears.
 
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Bleeding Purist, you must be a sucker for those "You NEED those prescription random medication" commericals.
There are kids and CI users who are "almost hearing" with CI, but the results have been very mixed. A member attended a CI presentation, and was asking about how well CI kids do. The reps from the companies said that yes....there are SOME kids who are minimal accomondation sucesses who don't even need speech therapy.....but they also said more of the population function as HOH. Yes, there's been studies....but a lot of those studies are very carefully selected. Did you know for example that the reason why CID and the other oral schools get such "good" results is b/c they ask the kids who aren't performing at the high end of the bell curve to leave? I did half believe a former poster when she claimed that kids spoken language/speech skills are so much better. Then I went to a conference, and met a friend there who works with CI kids. She was all " you don't talk like a deaf person." I thought she was talking about language levels and said so. She was all "No, I work with CI and deaf kids......you don't talk like a deaf person!?!!?"
Not to mention that there are a plethora of CI students at various and sundry schools for the Deaf.....some are functionally HOH yes, but some are also not great users. I'd be very very suspciious about the claims of a capitlist corparation.

I'll be brief; where are these claims and promises?

A wheelchair can help make a paraplegic mobile, but they will never be walkers. Those evil wheelchair corporations are just out to make money. We shouldn't fall victim to their claims and let the kids naturally claw their way around.
 

ecp

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30, really? My audiogram ranges from 10db to 20db in the CI ear. This is actually in the normal hearing range.

I was just using 30 as the almost normal range if I had a CI. I already have very good auditory skills and if/when I get a CI I'm sure I'll have thresholds in the normal range.
But I would be overjoyed with a threshold of 30 since my current PTA is 105 in one ear and 115 in the other.
 

Smithtr

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I just want to note here that some children can hear CLEARLY with CIs, all ranges and frequencies, but have trouble listening in noisy environments because they are not able to take advantage of our natural anatomy, specifically the outer ear the automatically helps shield from sounds that are unimportant. AB has the T-Mic that is the first CI microphone placed in the natural opening of the ear and users receive much clearer sounds when using it. They also have listening software that helps weed out unwanted noise as well. Unfortunately, both of these things are often withheld from small children so that they are forced to learn to listen through all the bustle.

I understand why you prefer ASL, why you would want a child to have ASL, I am currently FIGHTING to get my child ASL, but what I don't understand is what you have against CIs when Deaf children are obviously benefiting from them. Even if it isn't 100% perfect, it's sound to a child who would have otherwise never heard a thing. Why is this bad?

I'm not offended and irritated, I'm just curious. I WANT to understand your point of view.


I perceptive to people personal opinion :( we don't understand my community AGB strong oral and ESL. I disagree to ESL , I review on on some province small problem seems on problem.

we aware CI is serious loss. who is professional on aware on expert to oral and lip reading, if suppose future you will sign language become to development to mind, if suppose doesn't work impossibles. social communication how skills, I notice many people limit burden stuck on problem it is very difficult stuck. that is why.. we are encourage to ASL. It is very communication to education school. no matter. I evaluation to see some on rare AGB is serious! it is very careful aware. we are search research it for on lots of information sask AGB is reason some problem. doesn't work problem It is very investiage sask.
 

shel90

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I just want to note here that some children can hear CLEARLY with CIs, all ranges and frequencies, but have trouble listening in noisy environments because they are not able to take advantage of our natural anatomy, specifically the outer ear the automatically helps shield from sounds that are unimportant. AB has the T-Mic that is the first CI microphone placed in the natural opening of the ear and users receive much clearer sounds when using it. They also have listening software that helps weed out unwanted noise as well. Unfortunately, both of these things are often withheld from small children so that they are forced to learn to listen through all the bustle.

I understand why you prefer ASL, why you would want a child to have ASL, I am currently FIGHTING to get my child ASL, but what I don't understand is what you have against CIs when Deaf children are obviously benefiting from them. Even if it isn't 100% perfect, it's sound to a child who would have otherwise never heard a thing. Why is this bad?

I'm not offended and irritated, I'm just curious. I WANT to understand your point of view.

By saying that deaf children can hear with their CIs gives society the misconception that they are hearing and then politicians will start proposing bills against ASL. The hearing world sees or hear the word, "hearing" and they think the children are cured. Then society starts discriminating against those who don't have CIs or don't do as well with their CIs. I have already encountered some discrimination towards me simply because I don't have CIs despite my years and years of hard work with my speech skills. I was born with a bilateral severe profound deafness of 110 DB and I achieved near perfect speech skills all without CIs and instead of getting credit for it, I get discriminated because I can't hear like a hearing person. Thats why I prefer the Deaf world. I got tired of all the impossible expectations put on me and getting blamed for not meeting them. That's why I hate audism or audist thinking with a passion.
 

ecp

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I wouldn't quite say that. Yes, a lot of implantee kids can "hear" at HOH levels, but there are still kids who don't hear as well.......it's just that that pool is a lot smaller, since they loosened up the implantation criteria. There are still kids who don't get a lot of benifit from CI. I actually think that the sucesses may be due to kids who got SOME benifit from aids getting implanted.(ie they could hear some speech sounds or some enviromental sounds with aids.. Their brain knew how to process sound, so they have an advantage over those who had no previous exposure to sound).....That then makes the number of kids who don't benifit from CI appear a lot smaller. And before I'm attacked, I've heard a lot of really unsavory stories about how the CI companies and oral schools manipulate data. Remember the CI companies are basicly in the business for ONE REASON. PROFIT. The more they make their product appear desirable, the more money they make!

I really don't understand one thing. Why do so many people want to stratify people on a hearing or not-hearing continuum YET they don't want to place themselves on the continuum.

I can completely understand why people who identify and are a part of Deaf culture are skeptical about CIs but when those people want to judge parents who choose to implant their deaf children I have a problem.
There is a HUGE freaking difference between "hearing" some sounds with hearing aids and calling that a benefit and having useful hearing.
For kids who have "environmental awareness" (which basically means they might hear the fire truck seconds before it pulls into the driveway) and no other benefit from hearing aids why wouldn't a cochlear implant be a logical treatment?
Even if ultimately the kid is only able to hear some speech sounds or have more awareness of environmental sounds, how is the CI damaging them?

In many cases the kid, with much practice and patience from family, is able to hear much more than with hearing aids because when you have sensironeural hearing loss the problem is in getting the signal through the damaged cochleas. With conductive hearing loss, the only problem is that the sound gets dampened between the outer ear and the cochlea.
With sensironeural hearing loss it is the cochlea or auditory nerve that is the problem. No matter how loud a sound is it will NEVER EVER EVER be transmitted faithfully to the brain.


DeafDyke, please enlighten me as to why you have so much disdain for technology that can benefit people with hearing loss. Or why you are such a strong proponent of ASL when if I remember you didn't become a member of the Deaf community until you were an adult.
 

ecp

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By saying that deaf children can hear with their CIs gives society the misconception that they are hearing and then politicians will start proposing bills against ASL. The hearing world sees or hear the word, "hearing" and they think the children are cured. Then society starts discriminating against those who don't have CIs or don't do as well with their CIs. I have already encountered some discrimination towards me simply because I don't have CIs despite my years and years of hard work with my speech skills. I was born with a bilateral severe profound deafness of 110 DB and I achieved near perfect speech skills all without CIs and instead of getting credit for it, I get discriminated because I can't hear like a hearing person. Thats why I prefer the Deaf world. I got tired of all the impossible expectations put on me and getting blamed for not meeting them. That's why I hate audism or audist thinking with a passion.

What politician in recent years has proposed bills against ASL?
I applaud your hard work.
Maybe I need to think more about ow audism is affecting me but I know that I struggle every day to prove to my hearing colleagues that I am just as smart (if not smarter than) as them and that my profound deafness isn't a big deal.

I know I was rejected from medical school for the past 2 years because the old white guys can't imagine a deaf girl being a doctor. I might ask for an interpreter this year (so I can actually follow along in my masters degree lectures) and prove that I am at least as smart as my classmates and that I put in so much more work than them just to get by.

Sorry I wandered. I'm a bit pissed.
 

Grummer

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What politician in recent years has proposed bills against ASL?
I applaud your hard work.
Maybe I need to think more about ow audism is affecting me but I know that I struggle every day to prove to my hearing colleagues that I am just as smart (if not smarter than) as them and that my profound deafness isn't a big deal.

I know I was rejected from medical school for the past 2 years because the old white guys can't imagine a deaf girl being a doctor. I might ask for an interpreter this year (so I can actually follow along in my masters degree lectures) and prove that I am at least as smart as my classmates and that I put in so much more work than them just to get by.

Sorry I wandered. I'm a bit pissed.

wow, so you DO know about Audism, this is first hand experience you've just shared and i admire your will do be in medicine school, unbelievable! (thats one for theg few words i cant spell right) so kudos , keep up the the good fight , i too am in a Masters programmes and many lecturers are weird about it, some good some bad, some plain rotten, others plainly dont get it at all...

it's a tough place, so i know exactly what you're feeling, and going through...
*pats your shoulder* good on ya, and keep that chin of yours from flopping too low, i know its H_A_R_D.....
be good
 

shel90

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What politician in recent years has proposed bills against ASL?
I applaud your hard work.
Maybe I need to think more about ow audism is affecting me but I know that I struggle every day to prove to my hearing colleagues that I am just as smart (if not smarter than) as them and that my profound deafness isn't a big deal.

I know I was rejected from medical school for the past 2 years because the old white guys can't imagine a deaf girl being a doctor. I might ask for an interpreter this year (so I can actually follow along in my masters degree lectures) and prove that I am at least as smart as my classmates and that I put in so much more work than them just to get by.

Sorry I wandered. I'm a bit pissed.

Key word here...


"will start..."

Yea, you have a right to be pissed. I would be if I was in your shoes.
 

ambrosia

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Key word here...


"will start..."

Yea, you have a right to be pissed. I would be if I was in your shoes.

No they wouldn't. That's looking for monsters under the bed, being afraid of something that's not there.
 
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