Explaining Cued Speech - from an expert.

Kaitin said:
I don't know anything about the National Enquirer, but from Wikipedia: the National Enquirer

The National Enquirer (also commonly known as the Enquirer) is an American supermarket tabloid now published by American Media Inc (AMI). Founded in 1926, the tabloid has gone through a variety of changes over the years, and is currently well-known for its articles focusing on celebrity news, gossip, and crime. While it briefly sought a reputation for reliable journalism and had some success scooping other media with angles on the O.J. Simpson and Monica Lewinsky stories, notable erroneous reports such as those concerning the Elizabeth Smart case have not supported that effort and the focus has been alleged to have returned to celebrity gossip.

I don't think anyone here is a celebrity. Someone's quotes with links is not gossip. Crime? No.

You wanted links, so all quotes have linked. Anyone can read the whole threads and make opinions. I thought Flip was wrong about posts about ASL and literacy when I first searched. I'm sorry I was surprised.
Click to expand...

And a job well done, Kaitlin. Ignore the sarcasm. It is employed as a defense mechanism when one has been caught in their own contradictions.
 
Kaitin said:
I don't know anything about the National Enquirer, but from Wikipedia: the National Enquirer

The National Enquirer (also commonly known as the Enquirer) is an American supermarket tabloid now published by American Media Inc (AMI). Founded in 1926, the tabloid has gone through a variety of changes over the years, and is currently well-known for its articles focusing on celebrity news, gossip, and crime. While it briefly sought a reputation for reliable journalism and had some success scooping other media with angles on the O.J. Simpson and Monica Lewinsky stories, notable erroneous reports such as those concerning the Elizabeth Smart case have not supported that effort and the focus has been alleged to have returned to celebrity gossip.

I don't think anyone here is a celebrity. Someone's quotes with links is not gossip. Crime? No.

You wanted links, so all quotes have linked. Anyone can read the whole threads and make opinions. I thought Flip was wrong about posts about ASL and literacy when I first searched. I'm sorry I was surprised.
Click to expand...

Good job. Regarding that comment, it's obvious that loml just is trying to change focus from the fact that loml got BUSTED big time!
:run: :deal:
 
Kaitin said:
I don't know anything about the National Enquirer, but from Wikipedia: the National Enquirer

The National Enquirer (also commonly known as the Enquirer) is an American supermarket tabloid now published by American Media Inc (AMI). Founded in 1926, the tabloid has gone through a variety of changes over the years, and is currently well-known for its articles focusing on celebrity news, gossip, and crime. While it briefly sought a reputation for reliable journalism and had some success scooping other media with angles on the O.J. Simpson and Monica Lewinsky stories, notable erroneous reports such as those concerning the Elizabeth Smart case have not supported that effort and the focus has been alleged to have returned to celebrity gossip.

I don't think anyone here is a celebrity. Someone's quotes with links is not gossip. Crime? No.

You wanted links, so all quotes have linked. Anyone can read the whole threads and make opinions. I thought Flip was wrong about posts about ASL and literacy when I first searched. I'm sorry I was surprised.
Click to expand...


I am a celebrity. :giggle:
 
Well, I had a long chat with that coworker who grew up using CS today at lunch break.

Here is her take and experience with CS.

She was enrolled in an oral-only environment for the first 10 years with no visual cues to languages nor ASL. She was reading and writing at late 1st grade level by the time she entered 5th grade. Her parents got fed up with the failure of the oral-only programs and sent her to a CS program. She said that was when her English skills took off and she was able to narrow the gap with her literacy skills. She said she thanks CS for helping her that. However, she did say that she didnt feel that CS should be used for language acquisition just only as a teaching tool to develop literacy skills. I asked her if she had ASL from the start would it deprived her from developing fluency in English and she said no way. In addition to that, she said she would definitely not have gaps in her literacy skills. Having said that, she knows she can write good English but it is not creative nor advanced as she would like it to be. She learned ASL at the age of 15 and she said that ASL was the best thing she ever learned but she also does support CS too. Like me, she is against the oral-only approach.
 
Good Observations and Bad Conclusions

I have been working with my hearing kids on CS for about 2 weeks now.
While I must say I am against an oral only approach, and that aquiring
the ability to speak should never be forced on anyone, I am seeing that
CS has many potentially valuable places in education. It appears to have
originally been designed to "replace signing". That seems to be what was
in mind. BUT, it was the wrong conclusion! Just because a tool is designed
for one use and doesn't work well for that use, doesn't mean it won't work
wonderfully for another use. I am hoping that by the years end, my dyslexic
son will see a major improvement in his reading level and that his reading
level will finally come close to reaching where he is in all other areas. My
son is brilliant but would not test so, unless you had a trained proctor
skilled in different learning modalities and was able to compensate. We
all know how the system is set up. In many ways I am in the same
position as a parent with a Deaf child. The child is bright, I know, every
one who talks to him knows, but the standard tests would fail to show it.
Do I let him go technical rather than college because he wouldn't be able
to prove his abilities on paper? No, I am going to do whatever I can to
make it so he can pass the tests that get the money to send him to school.
What ever I do with him and for him in the long run will probably benifit him.
CS appears to have the ability to provide his brain with a tool that will
enable him to activate those areas that are not now activated. Literacy
in reading is what I see as this tools ultimate use. And in this country
we have gotten academically lazy. Everyone should be able to at least read two or more languages minimum! And it is a crying shame that we deprive
our children of that. All children can benifit from CS, from what I can
tell, Hearing and Deaf.
 
fredfam1 said:
I have been working with my hearing kids on CS for about 2 weeks now.
While I must say I am against an oral only approach, and that aquiring
the ability to speak should never be forced on anyone, I am seeing that
CS has many potentially valuable places in education. It appears to have
originally been designed to "replace signing". That seems to be what was
in mind. BUT, it was the wrong conclusion! Just because a tool is designed
for one use and doesn't work well for that use, doesn't mean it won't work
wonderfully for another use. I am hoping that by the years end, my dyslexic
son will see a major improvement in his reading level and that his reading
level will finally come close to reaching where he is in all other areas. My
son is brilliant but would not test so, unless you had a trained proctor
skilled in different learning modalities and was able to compensate. We
all know how the system is set up. In many ways I am in the same
position as a parent with a Deaf child. The child is bright, I know, every
one who talks to him knows, but the standard tests would fail to show it.
Do I let him go technical rather than college because he wouldn't be able
to prove his abilities on paper? No, I am going to do whatever I can to
make it so he can pass the tests that get the money to send him to school.
What ever I do with him and for him in the long run will probably benifit him.
CS appears to have the ability to provide his brain with a tool that will
enable him to activate those areas that are not now activated. Literacy
in reading is what I see as this tools ultimate use. And in this country
we have gotten academically lazy. Everyone should be able to at least read two or more languages minimum! And it is a crying shame that we deprive
our children of that. All children can benifit from CS, from what I can
tell, Hearing and Deaf.
Click to expand...

I think cued speech will help more with postlingual deaf children but I also think its a useful tool for teaching phonics. I didn't realize until recently that cued speech is the reason why I have a basic understanding of English phonics. I should add here that Phonics were never my forte though.

I hope cued speech will help your son read better but I also think he may learn more from an auditory approach but then you know him better I do.
 
deafskeptic said:
I think cued speech will help more with postlingual deaf children but I also think its a useful tool for teaching phonics. I didn't realize until recently that cued speech is the reason why I have a basic understanding of English phonics. I should add here that Phonics were never my forte though.

I hope cued speech will help your son read better but I also think he may learn more from an auditory approach but then you know him better I do.
Click to expand...

You are correct. He is primarily an auditory/kinesthetic learner.
I am so glad I had gotten him books on tape early on.
Yet, like me, he seems to get enormous frustration from not
being able to "display" what he knows in written format due
to problems reading. If you go by his age he is only delayed
by a two year level. But if you go by his IQ in other areas
the delay seems huge. The same thing happened with my
other child who is dyslexic. (Though she graduates from
George Fox with a BS in Biology this April, no DEBTS! due to scholarships,
and a 3.4 GPA) When I had her tested in 7nth grade she was
at the 99th percentile nationwide in math and science, BUT,
in spelling she was only at 12th percentile. One whole year
of intensive training only brought her up to the 24th percentile.
Gradually by the end of high school she was grade level
in spelling. Maybe I shouldn't worry. But I do. I guess
homeschooling, I may be more sensitive to how they perform.
 
Fredfam1 -

How wonderful to see the beginning developments of cueing English for you and your children. Thank you for sharing!

You mentioned that Chris is "primarily an auditory/kinesthetic learner." Cued Speech will certainly embrace his learning style.

Awesome!!!!!!
 
deafskeptic said:
I think cued speech will help more with postlingual deaf children but I also think its a useful tool for teaching phonics. I didn't realize until recently that cued speech is the reason why I have a basic understanding of English phonics. I should add here that Phonics were never my forte though.

I hope cued speech will help your son read better but I also think he may learn more from an auditory approach but then you know him better I do.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I don't understand how it feels to be exposured to Cued Speech, but belive you 100%.

I myself got basic understanding of phonics by old fashioned speech training, and if I was exposured to Visual Phonics I would probably get a understanding from Visual Phonics as well. But I can't see the advantage of using Visual Phonics over speech training, though I am pondering on it's use in different cases, like people that aren't able to lipread(aprox 5-10% of the whole population, both deaf and hearing) dyxlexia, autism, downs and so on. It might have a use for people who are language delayed as well, counting deaf people.

My concern here is that research have proved that qualified bi-bi and early ASL is more than sufficent for proper language development and good literacy.

Loml is in some cases against the focus on building up a proper standard for bi-bi education, sufficent skills in ASL among tutors and help to provide deaf children with full early language stimulation with sign language. Instead loml wants us to put all our effort into NCSA Cued Speech, going against increasing correlative research about early language and education.

I would suggest people to switch over to Visual Phonics for both the sake of a newer and better system and lack of hostility against ASL. NCSA Cued Speech is a small repressive dinosaur toward deaf people, from the late only oral era when people started to realize that HA wasn't the cure after all. It have a small comback right now here on AD because some "experts" are starting to realize that CI only, then CI+AVT not was the cure after all.
 
shel90 said:
Well, I had a long chat with that coworker who grew up using CS today at lunch break.

Here is her take and experience with CS.

She was enrolled in an oral-only environment for the first 10 years with no visual cues to languages nor ASL. She was reading and writing at late 1st grade level by the time she entered 5th grade. Her parents got fed up with the failure of the oral-only programs and sent her to a CS program. She said that was when her English skills took off and she was able to narrow the gap with her literacy skills. She said she thanks CS for helping her that. However, she did say that she didnt feel that CS should be used for language acquisition just only as a teaching tool to develop literacy skills. I asked her if she had ASL from the start would it deprived her from developing fluency in English and she said no way. In addition to that, she said she would definitely not have gaps in her literacy skills. Having said that, she knows she can write good English but it is not creative nor advanced as she would like it to be. She learned ASL at the age of 15 and she said that ASL was the best thing she ever learned but she also does support CS too. Like me, she is against the oral-only approach.
Click to expand...

Excellent example of real life case study experience.
 
fredfam1 said:
I have been working with my hearing kids on CS for about 2 weeks now.
While I must say I am against an oral only approach, and that aquiring
the ability to speak should never be forced on anyone, I am seeing that
CS has many potentially valuable places in education. It appears to have
originally been designed to "replace signing". That seems to be what was
in mind. BUT, it was the wrong conclusion! Just because a tool is designed
for one use and doesn't work well for that use, doesn't mean it won't work
wonderfully for another use. I am hoping that by the years end, my dyslexic
son will see a major improvement in his reading level and that his reading
level will finally come close to reaching where he is in all other areas. My
son is brilliant but would not test so, unless you had a trained proctor
skilled in different learning modalities and was able to compensate. We
all know how the system is set up. In many ways I am in the same
position as a parent with a Deaf child. The child is bright, I know, every
one who talks to him knows, but the standard tests would fail to show it.
Do I let him go technical rather than college because he wouldn't be able
to prove his abilities on paper? No, I am going to do whatever I can to
make it so he can pass the tests that get the money to send him to school.
What ever I do with him and for him in the long run will probably benifit him.
CS appears to have the ability to provide his brain with a tool that will
enable him to activate those areas that are not now activated. Literacy
in reading is what I see as this tools ultimate use. And in this country
we have gotten academically lazy. Everyone should be able to at least read two or more languages minimum! And it is a crying shame that we deprive
our children of that. All children can benifit from CS, from what I can
tell, Hearing and Deaf.
Click to expand...

While I admire the project that you have undertaken with your children, those findings cannot be generalized to all children and most especially to deaf children. Because it has benefitted your hearing children does not automatically transfer to obvious benefit for deaf children. Your child, even with an LD, learns as a hearing child, not as a deaf child.
 
flip said:
Interesting, I don't understand how it feels to be exposured to Cued Speech, but belive you 100%.

I myself got basic understanding of phonics by old fashioned speech training, and if I was exposured to Visual Phonics I would probably get a understanding from Visual Phonics as well. But I can't see the advantage of using Visual Phonics over speech training, though I am pondering on it's use in different cases, like people that aren't able to lipread(aprox 5-10% of the whole population, both deaf and hearing) dyxlexia, autism, downs and so on. It might have a use for people who are language delayed as well, counting deaf people.

My concern here is that research have proved that qualified bi-bi and early ASL is more than sufficent for proper language development and good literacy.

Loml is in some cases against the focus on building up a proper standard for bi-bi education, sufficent skills in ASL among tutors and help to provide deaf children with full early language stimulation with sign language. Instead loml wants us to put all our effort into NCSA Cued Speech, going against increasing correlative research about early language and education.

I would suggest people to switch over to Visual Phonics for both the sake of a newer and better system and lack of hostility against ASL. NCSA Cued Speech is a small repressive dinosaur toward deaf people, from the late only oral era when people started to realize that HA wasn't the cure after all. It have a small comback right now here on AD because some "experts" are starting to realize that CI only, then CI+AVT not was the cure after all.
Click to expand...

:gpost::gpost:
 
jillio said:
While I admire the project that you have undertaken with your children, those findings cannot be generalized to all children and most especially to deaf children. Because it has benefitted your hearing children does not automatically transfer to obvious benefit for deaf children. Your child, even with an LD, learns as a hearing child, not as a deaf child.
Click to expand...

Granted that the process would be different. The frustrations
and the emotions would be similar. After reading here on alldeaf
about the frustrations and experiences of Deaf children trying
to make their way through the system, I could find myself
empathizing due to all I have expereianced from my teachers
due to my LD. From being yelled at and told I was lazy, to
questioning my parents abilities, to being told I wasn't
college material, and not set my goals too high. Much more
but I definately know what it was like for some one to try and
force me to learn one way when I needed another. Or think I
just didn't have what it takes in the intelligence area. The majority
will always try to make the minority conform so that the majority
is not made to feel uncomfortable. And the minority eventually
always lashes back and some times goes overboard to try and
establish equity. And there always ends up being hard feelings.
Its too bad anger at old abuses can't be set aside and while
not allowing new abuses to occur, not throwing out the baby
with the bath water either.
 
fredfam1 said:
Granted that the process would be different. The frustrations
and the emotions would be similar. After reading here on alldeaf
about the frustrations and experiences of Deaf children trying
to make their way through the system, I could find myself
empathizing due to all I have expereianced from my teachers
due to my LD. From being yelled at and told I was lazy, to
questioning my parents abilities, to being told I wasn't
college material, and not set my goals too high. Much more
but I definately know what it was like for some one to try and
force me to learn one way when I needed another. Or think I
just didn't have what it takes in the intelligence area. The majority
will always try to make the minority conform so that the majority
is not made to feel uncomfortable. And the minority eventually
always lashes back and some times goes overboard to try and
establish equity. And there always ends up being hard feelings.
Its too bad anger at old abuses can't be set aside and while
not allowing new abuses to occur, not throwing out the baby
with the bath water either.
Click to expand...

Granted, the psychological and affective reactions are the same, anytime that unjust oppression and judgement are perpetrated on an individual, and especially toward that individual as member of a larger group. The Deaf community will most likely be able to put anger at old injustices aside as soon as those injustices stop happening.
 
flip
Loml is in some cases against the focus on building up a proper standard for bi-bi education, sufficent skills in ASL among tutors and help to provide deaf children with full early language stimulation with sign language.
Click to expand...

flip -That is your subjective interpretation, which you are entitled to.

flip
Instead loml wants us to put all our effort into NCSA Cued Speech, going against increasing correlative research about early language and education.
Click to expand...

You make claims like this, where is your research? I have been very forthcoming in research that I use to support my position. Still, understand that as such, that doesn't mean that there is 100% congruence between one's position and every conclusion drawn in the article. Please extend the same courtesy.

flip
I would suggest people to switch over to Visual Phonics for both the sake of a newer and better system and lack of hostility against ASL.
Click to expand...

Yet you also say:
Visual Phonics totally lacks research to prove it's effective.
Click to expand...


flip
NCSA Cued Speech is a small repressive dinosaur toward deaf people, from the late only oral era when people started to realize that HA wasn't the cure after all. It have a small comback right now here on AD because some "experts" are starting to realize that CI only, then CI+AVT not was the cure after all.
Click to expand...

flip- The NCSA is 41 years old, dinosaurs are from the Mesozoic Era- 230 million to 63 million years ago.:eek3:
 
loml said:
flip

flip -That is your subjective interpretation, which you are entitled to.

flip

You make claims like this, where is your research? I have been very forthcoming in research that I use to support my position. Still, understand that as such, that doesn't mean that there is 100% congruence between one's position and every conclusion drawn in the article. Please extend the same courtesy.

flip

Yet you also say:


flip

flip- The NCSA is 41 years old, dinosaurs are from the Mesozoic Era- 230 million to 63 million years ago.:eek3:
Click to expand...

Again with the overly concrete thinking. I do believe flip means prehistoric in thinking and philosophy.
 
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