do you think downs sydromes should be in Deaf school deaf unit?

Grummer said:
i completely agree with you, its a real tragic that all this economic rationale has really gotten into people's heads, like THEY are the disabled (ie they cant think for themselves- stupid adminstrators, teachers, school funders)....it's scary , almost like a real -life packs of Zombies wearing ties and running school to rob more minds...
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I know. It annoys me to no end that people think that a specialized placement is like something out of Willowbrook or a warehouse. They think they're saving money, but the fact of the matter is, is that what usually happens is that the kid doesn't get the proper services and falls through the cracks. I'm not just talking about educationally either.......like the mild mentally disabled and more nereologically affected kids fall through the cracks, and instead of having skilled job training, and social skills and networks to try to get a job, they don't have that. We need to think of specialized training as an ADVANTAGE and investment.
 
deafdyke said:
Green, I HAVE interacted quite well with mentally disabled kids, both in school and in real life. I interact with their parents...........and academic placement just seems to be due to "oh I want to pretend my wittle Smashly is "normal"
I want to pretend they actually CAN interact with normal IQ people!
We don't live in a Best Buddies program............the real world is horrible. I know of a mentally disabled girl who got raped by someone she thought was her boyfriend....I know of a mentally disabled girl who got fed dog feces by boys she thought were her friends. I know of kids who sit in class not understanding a THING, or who can't even read or write a coherent sentance.
Parents of mentally disabled kids are FAR FAR overestimating the "value" of inclusion.
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No. It's people like you who FAR FAR underestimate the abilities of children with cognitive challenges and expect them to accomplish nothing but some basic life skills like how to bathe. When you expect nothing, you get nothing in return.

It is clear that while no one has come outright and said it in this thread, there are people on this forum don't believe deaf children with cognitive challenges belong in a typical DHH class. That they don't have the right to be there. That- to me, is disgusting.

I don't believe that a hearing child with cognitive challenges belongs in a DHH placement just because they may use some sign. If they were CODA's then that might be a different story.
 
CSign said:
No. It's people like you who FAR FAR underestimate the abilities of children with cognitive challenges and expect them to accomplish nothing but some basic life skills like how to bathe. When you expect nothing, you get nothing in return.

It is clear that while no one has come outright and said it in this thread, there are people on this forum don't believe deaf children with cognitive challenges belong in a typical DHH class. That they don't have the right to be there. That- to me, is disgusting.

I don't believe that a hearing child with cognitive challenges belongs in a DHH placement just because they may use some sign. If they were CODA's then that might be a different story.
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NO NO and NO
you're getting hung up on 'rights' its getting over the top, its UNREALISTIC, ...and indeed you can expect them to do more, but it Still has to be in the right environment with the right TRAINED teachers and associates to extract the capabilities that these intellectually disabled students might do.

It iS disgusting to lump all the Deaf student in a deaf unit with these other student who clearly have DIFFERENT NEEDS and this requires DIFFERENT specialise teaching approaches. Deaf students who are not mentally challenged only require an alternate linguistic approach to capture academic growth., YOU TELL ME...What SORT OF MESSAGE DOES IT GIVES TO THE SCHOOL COMMUNITY WHEN YOU LUMP DEAF PLUS INTO A DEAF UNIT? THIS IS LIKE SAYING....
a its OK to put a HEARING INTELLECTUALLY RETARDED student who have mental age of 8 INTO a Year 12 HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS CLASSES wtih similar physically aged students of 17 18? ??

OF course that's not appropriate, this is NO DIFFERENCE to put a similar AGED Deaf+ student into a Deaf unit of same age bracket but with a 10 YEARS GAP in LEARNING !!??

In practice, inclusion is like trying to mix oil and water..
 
^^^ I agree with that.

EDIT TO ADD: when I was in high school, there were 3 of us Deaf in a school of 2,000 students. We each had an IEP and an IEP teacher. We didn't share the same IEP times, however, because each of us were at different levels of needs. So I was not "lumped with the others." We all got our own areas of attention.
 
Grummer said:
NO NO and NO
you're getting hung up on 'rights' its getting over the top, its UNREALISTIC, ...and indeed you can expect them to do more, but it Still has to be in the right environment with the right TRAINED teachers and associates to extract the capabilities that these intellectually disabled students might do.

It iS disgusting to lump all the Deaf student in a deaf unit with these other student who clearly have DIFFERENT NEEDS and this requires DIFFERENT specialise teaching approaches. Deaf students who are not mentally challenged only require an alternate linguistic approach to capture academic growth., YOU TELL ME...What SORT OF MESSAGE DOES IT GIVES TO THE SCHOOL COMMUNITY WHEN YOU LUMP DEAF PLUS INTO A DEAF UNIT? THIS IS LIKE SAYING....
a its OK to put a HEARING INTELLECTUALLY RETARDED student who have mental age of 8 INTO a Year 12 HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS CLASSES wtih similar physically aged students of 17 18? ??

OF course that's not appropriate, this is NO DIFFERENCE to put a similar AGED Deaf+ student into a Deaf unit of same age bracket but with a 10 YEARS GAP in LEARNING !!??

In practice, inclusion is like trying to mix oil and water..
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Grummer- it seems that you are misunderstanding the way things work in the states. I have no idea how it works where you're from, but here they wouldn't put a person with intellectual challenges who isn't capable in a 12th grade physics class.

Often times students with intellectual challenges are in
A self contained classroom, and potentially being mainstreamed for part of the day depending on the subject.

It is no different whether it's a DHH placement, or a mainstream placement having the students be included for parts of the day.

To say that a "deaf plus" child shouldn't be in a DHH placement is discriminatory. That would be like saying a DHH child shouldn't be in a mainstream program because they aren't hearing.

Your understanding of the system here is a bit off.
 
AlleyCat said:
^^^ I agree with that.

EDIT TO ADD: when I was in high school, there were 3 of us Deaf in a school of 2,000 students. We each had an IEP and an IEP teacher. We didn't share the same IEP times, however, because each of us were at different levels of needs. So I was not "lumped with the others." We all got our own areas of attention.
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Umm, yes. That's why it's called an IEP. Individualized Education Plan...
 
CSign said:
Umm, yes. That's why it's called an IEP. Individualized Education Plan...
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Umm, yes, but I shared the same IEP teacher and same IEP times all through elementary and junior high school years. It was not individualized for me at that point. The individual time didn't happen until high school. So you could see that as being "lumped in with the others" in those earlier years until it was apparent and necessary that we all have our own time.
 
CSign said:
Grummer- it seems that you are misunderstanding the way things work in the states. I have no idea how it works where you're from, but here they wouldn't put a person with intellectual challenges who isn't capable in a 12th grade physics class.

Often times students with intellectual challenges are in
A self contained classroom, and potentially being mainstreamed for part of the day depending on the subject.

It is no different whether it's a DHH placement, or a mainstream placement having the students be included for parts of the day.

To say that a "deaf plus" child shouldn't be in a DHH placement is discriminatory. That would be like saying a DHH child shouldn't be in a mainstream program because they aren't hearing.

Your understanding of the system here is a bit off.
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no its not, your view is a bit off
 
Grummer said:
no its not, your view is a bit off
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I can appreciate the fact that you have a different set of opinions and views than me. You might perceive my view as, "a bit off" and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

However, my statement was that your understanding of the educational system here is a bit off. In other words, it's apparent you are not familiar with the way things actually work here. A student with the intellectual abilities of an eight year old would never be placed in a physics class.
 
CSign said:
No. It's people like you who FAR FAR underestimate the abilities of children with cognitive challenges and expect them to accomplish nothing but some basic life skills like how to bathe. When you expect nothing, you get nothing in return.

It is clear that while no one has come outright and said it in this thread, there are people on this forum don't believe deaf children with cognitive challenges belong in a typical DHH class. That they don't have the right to be there. That- to me, is disgusting.

I don't believe that a hearing child with cognitive challenges belongs in a DHH placement just because they may use some sign. If they were CODA's then that might be a different story.
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What the HELL? WRONG. Have you actually ever VISITED a self contained class for kids with intellectucal disabilties?!?!?!? I have repeatly said that intellctucally disabled kids deserve functional ACADEMICS , to try to get them to a fourth grade (basic literacy level.) I don't believe that kids with mild intelelctucal disabilties need to be in a classroom with the type of "fun" worksheets that they give out when there's a sub.....They deserve functional academics....But the thing that USUALLY happens when an mentally disabled kid is in a regular class, (including a dhh one) is that they have NO CLUE what is even going on. By fourth grade, a lot of the academics are FAR above what they can mentally UNDERSTAND. Heck, even some severe LD (and I mean real severe LD, NOT the kind that's a euphanism for mild mental disabilties) kids have simlair issues as well! I'm not saying they don't have the right to be there...........but it's a FACT that the overwhelming majority of mentally disabled children cannot keep up. Their mentality prevents them from understanding higher level and complex stuff........What usually happens with inclusion of mentally disabled kids is that they start out with a Warm and Fuzzy approach " YAY, Foster can learn in the same room with the normal IQ kids!" But the kid has no CLUE what is going on and doesn't even pick up basic skills. Again, it would be like you being put in a Stephen Hawking or another extremely high learning sitution......I'm not saying mentally disabled kids don't deserve to learn academics....But I'm saying that they deserve it in an enviroment that is tailored to their level, and where they wouldn't be lost!
And many Deaf Schools DO agree and DO have programs specificly for that population!
 
CSign said:
I can appreciate the fact that you have a different set of opinions and views than me. You might perceive my view as, "a bit off" and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

However, my statement was that your understanding of the educational system here is a bit off. In other words, it's apparent you are not familiar with the way things actually work here. A student with the intellectual abilities of an eight year old would never be placed in a physics class.
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Agreed, but on the other hand, they would be placed in a regular dhh mainstream class, where the pace is wait for it.....TOO FAST for them!
Like the other dhh kids in the class are at a level where they're reading the Babysitter's Club or Matt Christopher or Goosebumps books.....and the mentally disabled kid is on the level of reading Frog and Toad.
 
deafdyke said:
What the HELL? WRONG. Have you actually ever VISITED a self contained class for kids with intellectucal disabilties?!?!?!? I have repeatly said that intellctucally disabled kids deserve functional ACADEMICS , to try to get them to a fourth grade (basic literacy level.) I don't believe that kids with mild intelelctucal disabilties need to be in a classroom with the type of "fun" worksheets that they give out when there's a sub.....They deserve functional academics....But the thing that USUALLY happens when an mentally disabled kid is in a regular class, (including a dhh one) is that they have NO CLUE what is even going on. By fourth grade, a lot of the academics are FAR above what they can mentally UNDERSTAND. Heck, even some severe LD (and I mean real severe LD, NOT the kind that's a euphanism for mild mental disabilties) kids have simlair issues as well! I'm not saying they don't have the right to be there...........but it's a FACT that the overwhelming majority of mentally disabled children cannot keep up. Their mentality prevents them from understanding higher level and complex stuff........What usually happens with inclusion of mentally disabled kids is that they start out with a Warm and Fuzzy approach " YAY, Foster can learn in the same room with the normal IQ kids!" But the kid has no CLUE what is going on and doesn't even pick up basic skills. Again, it would be like you being put in a Stephen Hawking or another extremely high learning sitution......I'm not saying mentally disabled kids don't deserve to learn academics....But I'm saying that they deserve it in an enviroment that is tailored to their level, and where they wouldn't be lost!
And many Deaf Schools DO agree and DO have programs specificly for that population!
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i have, and its disturbing...its like a fake mental hospital in schools, all glossed up... i feel sick everytime i got there
 
Grummer said:
i have, and its disturbing...its like a fake mental hospital in schools, all glossed up... i feel sick everytime i got there
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Grummer:
Where? I think part of the problem is questioning if you know what is the practice in the USA as compared to where you live. Most things, not just this, vary from country to country.
 
CSign said:
No. It's people like you who FAR FAR underestimate the abilities of children with cognitive challenges and expect them to accomplish nothing but some basic life skills like how to bathe. When you expect nothing, you get nothing in return.

It is clear that while no one has come outright and said it in this thread, there are people on this forum don't believe deaf children with cognitive challenges belong in a typical DHH class. That they don't have the right to be there. That- to me, is disgusting.

I don't believe that a hearing child with cognitive challenges belongs in a DHH placement just because they may use some sign. If they were CODA's then that might be a different story.
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Do you support a separate class or program for gifted and talented students?
 
shel90 said:
Do you support a separate class or program for gifted and talented students?
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Absolutely. That doesn't prove anything though. :)
Most people who are posting in opposition are doing it from the standpoint that these students would be mainstreamed all day. The fact is that most would be mainstreamed for only part of the day. In the subjects that they would benefit from.

People really should do more research as to how things actually work here before making such blanket statements.
 
deafdyke said:
What the HELL? WRONG. Have you actually ever VISITED a self contained class for kids with intellectucal disabilties?!?!?!? I have repeatly said that intellctucally disabled kids deserve functional ACADEMICS , to try to get them to a fourth grade (basic literacy level.) I don't believe that kids with mild intelelctucal disabilties need to be in a classroom with the type of "fun" worksheets that they give out when there's a sub.....They deserve functional academics....But the thing that USUALLY happens when an mentally disabled kid is in a regular class, (including a dhh one) is that they have NO CLUE what is even going on. By fourth grade, a lot of the academics are FAR above what they can mentally UNDERSTAND. Heck, even some severe LD (and I mean real severe LD, NOT the kind that's a euphanism for mild mental disabilties) kids have simlair issues as well! I'm not saying they don't have the right to be there...........but it's a FACT that the overwhelming majority of mentally disabled children cannot keep up. Their mentality prevents them from understanding higher level and complex stuff........What usually happens with inclusion of mentally disabled kids is that they start out with a Warm and Fuzzy approach " YAY, Foster can learn in the same room with the normal IQ kids!" But the kid has no CLUE what is going on and doesn't even pick up basic skills. Again, it would be like you being put in a Stephen Hawking or another extremely high learning sitution......I'm not saying mentally disabled kids don't deserve to learn academics....But I'm saying that they deserve it in an enviroment that is tailored to their level, and where they wouldn't be lost!
And many Deaf Schools DO agree and DO have programs specificly for that population!
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In all of that, I'm still not clear on what you perceive me to be wrong about. I have visited many self contained classrooms, and I've been heavily involved in advocating for students for quite some time. I know what I'm talking about. ;)
 
CSign said:
Absolutely. That doesn't prove anything though. :)
Most people who are posting in opposition are doing it from the standpoint that these students would be mainstreamed all day. The fact is that most would be mainstreamed for only part of the day. In the subjects that they would benefit from.

People really should do more research as to how things actually work here before making such blanket statements.
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That would be PARTIAL mainstreaming, not mainstreaming in general. I think that's where we got mixed up........the misuse of the term. If you read what I said I repeatly advocate for that sort of placement. Including for kids with severe/significent learning disabilties.So I don't know why you're attacking me!.....I think Grummer would be OK with such a set up as well. You're talking about partial mainstreaming a la the way a kid from a deaf or blind school might take advantage of partial mainstreaming opperuntuties at the local schools. There are some mentally disabled kids who have strenghs in various and sundry subjects. But you do realize that most kids like this would most likely not benifit for a very long time.......most mentally disabled kids tend to top out at upper elementary school. And they still need a formal program since, unfortunatly most of them will always still deal with the mental disabilty issues
 
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