do you think downs sydromes should be in Deaf school deaf unit?

deafdyke

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Like AP classes or gifted programs. They wont allow children who are not gifted into these programs because they are designed to meet gifted children's needs and yet, nobody complains.

So, a regular deaf/hh program may not have the resources or the staff may not have the training to meet the needs of children with Down's Syndrome but people have a shit fit if children with Down's Syndrome cant be admitted into those programs.

Just food for thought...:hmm:

I thought we had a deaf applause smiley......Anyway, THIS! THIS TOTALLY!
Yes, a special needs program shouldn't be one of those really crappy "here's a worksheet with games" sort of dealie.... But they do deserve functional acadmics, and everything like that. Many of them would be completely LOST in a mainstream classroom....there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
Even kids with severe learning disabilties or other really severe issues could join the class, as things got harder.......
 

drphil

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If Deaf classes use ASL/voice off- it would seem for anyone-Downs Syndrome- who DOESN"T understand ASL would not benefit. being part of a Deaf class.

aside: I was never in a "deaf class" when I went to school many years ago. Became bilateral DEAF at age 70.
 

deafdyke

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If Deaf classes use ASL/voice off- it would seem for anyone-Downs Syndrome- who DOESN"T understand ASL would not benefit. being part of a Deaf class.

aside: I was never in a "deaf class" when I went to school many years ago. Became bilateral DEAF at age 70.

Now, that's an interesting perspective. Some if not all severe mentally disabled kids may not even have the mental capicity to even UNDERSTAND ASL!
But then again, wouldn't the severe kids be in mentally disabled classrooms?
Many mild mentally disabled kids CAN understand ASL....And luckily most mentally handicapped kids are mild.
But that still means that the mentally handicapped kids will always basicly be at a functional academic level and will learn life skills in class. They overall cannot keep up in a regular class. It's too fast paced for them. Why is that hard to understand? They have resource room special ed classes for kids who are scattered in their abilties....Why the stigma against a class for kids who while they CAN learn, will most likely not even attend community college?
I don't understand that. They're getting an education on their level....and they've got a community and peer groups on their level too......Heck, a special class could serve as a refuge from major bullying. ...Much as some parents of mentally disabled kids may be all "warm and fuzzy" about their kids interacting with the normal IQ kids, it's a fact that major major bullying AND oscraizatrion goes on against mentally disabled people in the mainstream!
ALSO, here's another perspective. Things need to be taken by an indivdual case...There ARE smart mentally disabled kids after all. But how do you handle a mentally disabled inclusive student who doesn't understand something or misunderstands something and totally melts down b/c they cannot understand something? I would imagine that would be very disruptive in a mainstream classroom. I had an experiance with a mentally disabled woman who would completely misunderstand what I was saying and completely meltdown......Like I vividly remember posting something about a postsecondary program for mentally disabled kids ...She melted down completely for no reason at ALL (and no reason that the moderators of the group could see either) that I could see. She said later on that she had thought that I had been twisting her words. I can't imagine a mentally disabled child like her in a mainstream classroom.
 

drphil

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My thoughts above- only were with the position does one USE/UNDERSTAND ASL. The level of "understanding intellectually" is another matter

The discussion within a "HUMAN right" lens is irrelevant.

Another discussion in Sociology deaf culture: learning subsection
 

sequoias

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Yes if they are deaf and if a deaf school has a special unit for them in a seperate environment. There are plenty of success stories of some children with disabilities with communication placed in deaf school and their lives changed big time.
 

Grummer

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My thoughts above- only were with the position does one USE/UNDERSTAND ASL. The level of "understanding intellectually" is another matter

The discussion within a "HUMAN right" lens is irrelevant.

Another discussion in Sociology deaf culture: learning subsection

i know...so caled argument on Human right are over used, and impractial and down right stupid

its like PC gone mad. sort of

now, what's that learning subsection, whos writes about this? theorists in particular? please share this,
and thanks
also thanks for the last weeks suggestion on the 'lines' missing when you reminded me of the journey into deaf world book ( i knew the book, got it now but till last week ive forgotten all about it! )
thanks
 

drphil

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You are welcome Grummer. re: The journey into the DEAF WORLD- Harlan Lane et al
The subsection-learning- could be the thread- being part of Alldeaf.com
 

deafdyke

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BTW, just to clarify......I also think that Deaf Schools should have subprograms for autistic kids, and behavorial kids too. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not signaling out mentally handicapped kids. I'm ALSO not going " ALL deaf plus kids need to be excluded from the "just deaf" classroom.... Just pointing out that there are some "plus" kids who NEED specialized instruction.
 

deaftears

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I think deaf students with Downs Syndrome should be in special classes of their own with teachers qualified to teach them and enthusiastic both about their students and the potentials of their students.
 

deafdyke

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I like how everyone thinks that Downs or other intectucally disabled kids NEED a specialized program. This isn't "oh those kids don't belong with us"
.....and I don't see anyone here with that attitude.
Why not a compromise? Why not allow the intellectucally disabled kids in the mainstream for early childhood, and THEN move them into a life skills class? Like early childhood, the learning is easy and can be play based etc. They can learn first and second grade level things.....and then as things get tougher, they could move to a life skills/ functional academics classroom.
The fact of the matter is, is that an academicly paced classroom would be too hard for most intllectucally disabled kids. Even some severe LD (learning disabled) kids find an academicly paced classroom too hard, or would fall through the cracks. That population WOULD get an education and wouldn't fall through the cracks......I mean even mild kids willl never attend even community college.Most of them will end up going to specialized programs or even day programs.
 

AshJagla

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Like a Deaf child who signs in the public school and has a terp to help keep things moving along, a Deaf DS child should have a private aid in signing school to help this child without slowing down his/her peers. They are Deaf, why shouldn't they belong there. You would rather send that child where? What would you want if that were your kid? There are disabled children in hearing schools because they are hearing, disabled Deaf children should be allowed to attend a Deaf school because they are Deaf. As for lumping disabled children who are not dhh with dhh children, I think that is wrong and do believe it would slow down curriculum, we are having that same issue in our area in the "communications class."
 

deafdyke

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Like a Deaf child who signs in the public school and has a terp to help keep things moving along, a Deaf DS child should have a private aid in signing school to help this child without slowing down his/her peers. They are Deaf, why shouldn't they belong there. You would rather send that child where? What would you want if that were your kid? There are disabled children in hearing schools because they are hearing, disabled Deaf children should be allowed to attend a Deaf school because they are Deaf. As for lumping disabled children who are not dhh with dhh children, I think that is wrong and do believe it would slow down curriculum, we are having that same issue in our area in the "communications class."

What we're saying is that they need a mentally disabled class within the Signing School. Like yes, it should be an indivdual thing. Some mentally disabled kids are quite high functioning after all......Having a deaf mentally disabled class would be like having a deaf behavorial class or a deaf autism class. Those are populations that require specialized instruction.....Make sense now?
We're not saying that Deaf mentally disabled don't belong at a Deaf School....we're saying they require a specialized class AT the school. And indeed MANY Deaf Schools do offer specialized special needs programming. Even ones as relatively small as NYSSD, (88 students if I recall) and WVSDB, and the one out on Long Island offer special needs programming. Most mentally disabled kids CAN learn but it's always going to be functional academic level and learning life skills.
And yes, lumping hearing mentally disabled kids in with dhh kids is wrong, b/c their speech delays tend to be a result of their mental disabilty. Completely different from a "just dhh" kid.......
 

green427

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As someone who has dealt with several school districts in the placement of disabled children...there is one answer to all of your questions....money.

School districts are fully aware that different children have different educational requirements.

Their decisions are usually made on thinking "how can we meet the minimum requirements without spending any extra money?".

Sadly, in the eyes of educators and taxpayers, money should be invested on children that are expected to be productive members of society.

This is why, back in the old days, disabled children were sent to institutions and not given any opportunities...including deaf children.

How many of you have mentally disabled children? If you don't have one, you will never understand what the parents go through to get their children the help they need.

Just remember that for years, society has put us deaf people in the same classification as mentally disabled....it has changed a lot these days, yes, BUT, the general population out there still thinks this way. How many of us were denied employment because of our deafness?

Yes, I agree that some parents and educators make really ignorant decisions like placing a child with a specific disability in the wrong environment in hopes of having "equal" access....with disastrous results.

Others make ignorant decisions for political reasons.

There is no easy answer...spend some time raising a mentally disabled child, and you will have a better understanding and respect for all that are involved.
 

Grummer

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that's because the buzzword of the day is "inclusion", in reality it just means cutting...its a two bladed knife, "cuts out exclusion*(but same time Deaf dont want inclsion, but be taught in sign as separate language) and other half or the same knife meant to cut expenditure (its called spending now), govts prefer to spend on pacifying angry people with newer options (because jobs has gone to southeast cheap labour) funny thing is, did we trust the governments back then? they indeed did more poisoning on ourselves, (and now has shifted elsewhere) BUT we have now are facing newer kinds of poisoning...that is from cheaply made products being TOXIC upon arrivals to the consumers (not WHILE it was being produced!)...
its like everything got tossed around...same thing with deaf and disability, it all got tossed over too!
 

Sho

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If the person if deaf then yes, they should be in a deaf school. If not then they should be in another school that serves them better.
 

KarissaMann05

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I have no problem with DS students at Deaf schools but I saw a video made some valid points about Deaf schools may become Disabilities schools. That's something I'm not really forward to.

Something I am kinda worried about...
 

VacationGuy234

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Grummer, I'm curious, how are deaf classes taught where you are located? Is it a class of 30 kids and one teacher? A class of maybe 5 and one special education teacher?

The number and format of the class can make a significant difference. If the class has a small number of students a teacher can work individually between groups. On the other hand, if a teacher has more of an auditorium format were he/she dictates then takes question, without regard to speed, it can be quite different.
 

deafdyke

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that's because the buzzword of the day is "inclusion", in reality it just means cutting...its a two bladed knife, "cuts out exclusion*(but same time Deaf dont want inclsion, but be taught in sign as separate language) and other half or the same knife meant to cut expenditure (its called spending now), !

Yup. Inclusion is too...........one size fits all. How can a teacher meet the needs of kids who may require more intense/specialized help? It's difficult enough teaching a regular class. Besides, its a fact that schools educate the average student best. Did you know GIFTED kids very often deal with the same issues in getting an education, as do sped/dhh/blind/low vison/other low incidence kids? Inclusion is also a great way for a kid to really fall through the cracks in SO MANY WAYS!
 

deafdyke

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As someone who has dealt with several school districts in the placement of disabled children...there is one answer to all of your questions....money.

School districts are fully aware that different children have different educational requirements.

Their decisions are usually made on thinking "how can we meet the minimum requirements without spending any extra money?".

Sadly, in the eyes of educators and taxpayers, money should be invested on children that are expected to be productive members of society.

This is why, back in the old days, disabled children were sent to institutions and not given any opportunities...including deaf children.

How many of you have mentally disabled children? If you don't have one, you will never understand what the parents go through to get their children the help they need.

Just remember that for years, society has put us deaf people in the same classification as mentally disabled....it has changed a lot these days, yes, BUT, the general population out there still thinks this way. How many of us were denied employment because of our deafness?

Yes, I agree that some parents and educators make really ignorant decisions like placing a child with a specific disability in the wrong environment in hopes of having "equal" access....with disastrous results.

Others make ignorant decisions for political reasons.

There is no easy answer...spend some time raising a mentally disabled child, and you will have a better understanding and respect for all that are involved.

Green, I HAVE interacted quite well with mentally disabled kids, both in school and in real life. I interact with their parents...........and academic placement just seems to be due to "oh I want to pretend my wittle Smashly is "normal"
I want to pretend they actually CAN interact with normal IQ people!
We don't live in a Best Buddies program............the real world is horrible. I know of a mentally disabled girl who got raped by someone she thought was her boyfriend....I know of a mentally disabled girl who got fed dog feces by boys she thought were her friends. I know of kids who sit in class not understanding a THING, or who can't even read or write a coherent sentance.
Parents of mentally disabled kids are FAR FAR overestimating the "value" of inclusion.
 

Grummer

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Grummer, I'm curious, how are deaf classes taught where you are located? Is it a class of 30 kids and one teacher? A class of maybe 5 and one special education teacher?

The number and format of the class can make a significant difference. If the class has a small number of students a teacher can work individually between groups. On the other hand, if a teacher has more of an auditorium format were he/she dictates then takes question, without regard to speed, it can be quite different.

its doesnt matter, this sort of 'financial rationale' should never ever dictate who well or how bad an education a deaf student is going to get. Special education teacher? get stuffed!, they have No place for Deaf students, but for Downs yes...it SHOULD Be Deaf teachers who are well capable of teacher with full empathy and full knowledge of Deafness as a cultural and social phenomenon. Popular politics has gotten into everyone's heads so succesfully. its time to get real about it. Stop squibbling about how much it costs, start asking a real question, whats' the cost of some deaf person's real education worth? and their contribution would be more real for society as a round-about inclusion , Right?!
 
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