do you think downs sydromes should be in Deaf school deaf unit?

Grummer said:
i wouldnt say he's lock them up, nah, just more likely hope or expect the DS kids to be placed in the right place, not alongside Deaf!,...why slow us down?!, that is what i get....I WOULD be embarrassed too...just imagine yourself as 16 years old, Deaf have CI (or just a HA) and quite good at maths, and likes a bit of science and art (painting)...a
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Being embarrassed and being 'slowed down' are two different things.

I agree that students with different disabilities should be put in the right classroom based on their learning levels, which is your original discussion, but blaming any lack of educational skills on other less intelligent students is downright ridiculous....and adding insult by saying "I am embarrassed to be in the same room with those kids" reeks of immaturity and rudeness.

If what you are saying is the truth...then all my hearing classmates should be blaming me, the only deaf kid, on THEIR lack of education, as I apparently slowed them all down in all their classes...and yes, many of them were embarrassed to have "that deaf kid" in the same room too. Yeah, some of them can't get jobs because of me. Some of them are not successful business owners because of me.


...and then you have a same age DS student who cant sign right, cant spell out words, have mental ability of an 8 yo in the high school, imagine what other kids (ie your classmates) would think of you if you're in there at the lunch hour, or for an tutoring catch up hours...you'd be blushing or irrated right?!!
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What makes you think everyone is thinking of YOU when someone else is acting up? Get real, man...no one gives a shit about you when someone else is the center of attention.

of course you would be and no one should blame you, but the stupid parent of the DS, pushing to 'pretend their kid is more deaf than as a retarded DS'...
DD said it right there too.
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While there are some parents that make stupid decisions....it is ultimately up to the school system to make the final decision. Like the others said, many schools merge special ed students in similar classrooms due to financial reasons. The world in general does not give a shit about the disabled, which is why special ed is the very first place where they look to cut budgets. If you want the DS students in a different area, cough up some money. If you don't have money, you have no choice but to move somewhere else. You have every right to go to another school.


there seem too much of PC going around, with all the 'being nice' well, we need to get real about it too
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Go back and read some of our replies. We don't have an issue debating the placement of DS students....it is your tact and coldness that is more of an issue.

How would you feel if you wanted to participate in a hearing classroom for advanced students, and everyone in the classroom said "Get this stupid deaf kid out of here, he is going to slow us down!!...he is going to embarrass us with his funny speech!!!"?

If you want respect, you have to treat others with respect first.
 
Certainly, in my middle school I had a MR student in my deaf program class and it did not affect the education because there is teacher aide helping him. I don't see any reason DS students should not be in Deaf school or other classroom.

Students are treated equally and should be regardless of handicap. If there is special needs students that's why the teacher's aide is there for. The teachers can't do it alone.
 
Having children with disabilities, I can only imagine, is doubly hard when you have gone through having a disability yourself(as many here would know). I would not wish those same experiences on my child especially those I had endured.

On the one hand, if I had children, I would like them to grow up street smart. And, because of this I would enter my child in some mainstream schooling. However, even for me, there is a limit. When I was in school there was a blind student who received so much abuse(certainly criminal behavior), I saw no reason why that student needed to be in a mainstream school. It's one thing to show your child the realities of the world, it's quite another to have that child acutely endure it every day.

I could easily see myself not mainstreaming a child if it did not impose on that child the knowledge needed to get through life.

My point is: There are some students whose educational needs go beyond special education in mainstream schools.
 
VacationGuy234 said:
Having children with disabilities, I can only imagine, is doubly hard when you have gone through having a disability yourself(as many here would know). I would not wish those same experiences on my child especially those I had endured.

On the one hand, if I had children, I would like them to grow up street smart. And, because of this I would enter my child in some mainstream schooling. However, even for me, there is a limit. When I was in school there was a blind student who received so much abuse(certainly criminal behavior), I saw no reason why that student needed to be in a mainstream school. It's one thing to show your child the realities of the world, it's quite another to have that child acutely endure it every day.

I could easily see myself not mainstreaming a child if it did not impose on that child the knowledge needed to get through life.

My point is: There are some students whose educational needs go beyond special education in mainstream schools.
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And risk the bullying that caused several "normal" teenagers to commit suicide or murder?'

I would rather have my child in a program that has the appropriate resources to meet all of his or her needs. If a deaf program doesn't have any additional resources to meet his or her needs, then I would fight for additional funding or find a program that have trained staff and resources.

I don't have any congnitive issues but as a deaf child, I had to work my butt off to barely keep my head above water while being mainstreamed. I sure could have used the appropriate resources instead of being thrown in with the sharks and people saying "Good luck!"

I guess it is because of my own personal experiences as a "disabled" child being mainstreamed with no support and as an educator. No way I would put my child through that. My hearing son is definitely not street smart because he lives a sheltered life with us. My hubby grew up street smart and he said it was a rough rough life surviving the ghettos and he wont have the same for our son.
 
CSign said:
Okay then. :ugh2:
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I'm sorry but a one room schoolhouse approach is horrible. That would be even worse then a Resource Room approach. You have to approach each kid on an individual case. Yes, there are Deaf Down's (and CHARGE, and other mental disabilty syndromes) Those kids can strongly benifit from being in a Deaf Ed setting especially if they are mild and tend towards being academic. In fact that would be the perfect setting for them. They can be challenged without being totally lost in the mainstream.
BUT admitting a kid purely b/c of mental disabilty? There ARE mental disabilty classes you know. Much as people may not want to admit it mentally disabled kids tend to be at a different level then kids without mental disabilty. They deserve to learn and aquire academic skills.....but they need a program specificly for their disabilty.....If they use Sign for expressive purposes (like apraxia but are otherwise high functioning), maybe a Deaf unit might be a good idea. But if they use Sign more as a basic augmentive and alternative method, that's kinda a different kettle of fish.
 
shel90 said:
And risk the bullying that caused several "normal" teenagers to commit suicide or murder?'

I would rather have my child in a program that has the appropriate resources to meet all of his or her needs. If a deaf program doesn't have any additional resources to meet his or her needs, then I would fight for additional funding or find a program that have trained staff and resources.

I don't have any congnitive issues but as a deaf child, I had to work my butt off to barely keep my head above water while being mainstreamed. I sure could have used the appropriate resources instead of being thrown in with the sharks and people saying "Good luck!"

I guess it is because of my own personal experiences as a "disabled" child being mainstreamed with no support and as an educator. No way I would put my child through that. My hearing son is definitely not street smart because he lives a sheltered life with us. My hubby grew up street smart and he said it was a rough rough life surviving the ghettos and he wont have the same for our son.
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Exactly. The needs of a dhh kid are different from the needs of a mentally handicapped kid. The overwhelming majority of JUST mentally disabled kids (meaning no apraxia or mentally handicapped associated spoken language delays) would be better off in an mentally disabled classroom.
 
Not to mention that more then mild mentally disabled kids would be completely LOST in a deaf ed setting. Deaf ed after all, is academic.
Same with autistic kids who use signs in an augmentive/alternative communcation fashion. There are kids who use Sign b/c they cannot speak (and everything else is fine...it they're not mentally disabled or autistic and those kids can and do fit in with Deaf ed. I know of such an individual at TLC in MA.
And actually, no I do not think that "just Down's" should be in a Deaf unit. Those programs seem to be small and exlcusively for dhh children. It would be FAR too fast paced for them...there wouldn't be specialized special needs instruction, curriculum, materials etc.
 
Especially now with the Common Core Standards Curriculum. Holy MOLY the rigor has increased two-fold!!!!
 
Just to clarify. I'm not being anti Down's or anti Deaf plus. I said that Deaf plus, kids would significently benifit from a set up like this. Dhh mild mental disabilty kids would fit in very very well in a set up like this. It's academic but not super duper challenging.
But why admit "just mental disabilty" kids? Meaning kids without even apraxia. (who BTW could fit in well in a Deaf Ed setting) That makes no sense. The only reason why I could think of is that "oh mentally disabled kids have speech delays too" But the thing is.....mentally disabled speech delays are distinct from dhh speech delays.
I'm not saying actively discriminate against mentally disabled kids.....but the thing is, Deaf Schools/classes are for a specific population. Why would a mentally disabled kid benifit from Dhh specific classroom interactions?
See what I mean? Like at my syndrome's annual conference, there are activities and stuff for the young adults. Many of us are mild mentally disabled, or sidewalk crack nereologically affected (obviously nereologically affected but not exactly mentally disabled but, not exactly someone you'd see in a typical Resource Room) There are however some young adults who are rather....affected (and not even severely) and they don't understand what is going on or what to do.
That would be the same as a mild mentally disabled kid being in a dhh program.
Why not just put them in a mentally disabled class with Makaton The Makaton Charity or an approach like that seen at the Children's Center for Communication? The Children's Center for Communication
It's about NEEDS and the fact that "just" Down's/ mentally handicapped kids are at a different level then dhh kids!
 
deafdyke said:
Just to clarify. I'm not being anti Down's or anti Deaf plus. I said that Deaf plus, kids would significently benifit from a set up like this. Dhh mild mental disabilty kids would fit in very very well in a set up like this. It's academic but not super duper challenging.
But why admit "just mental disabilty" kids? Meaning kids without even apraxia. (who BTW could fit in well in a Deaf Ed setting) That makes no sense. The only reason why I could think of is that "oh mentally disabled kids have speech delays too" But the thing is.....mentally disabled speech delays are distinct from dhh speech delays.
I'm not saying actively discriminate against mentally disabled kids.....but the thing is, Deaf Schools/classes are for a specific population. Why would a mentally disabled kid benifit from Dhh specific classroom interactions?
See what I mean? Like at my syndrome's annual conference, there are activities and stuff for the young adults. Many of us are mild mentally disabled, or sidewalk crack nereologically affected (obviously nereologically affected but not exactly mentally disabled but, not exactly someone you'd see in a typical Resource Room) There are however some young adults who are rather....affected (and not even severely) and they don't understand what is going on or what to do.
That would be the same as a mild mentally disabled kid being in a dhh program.
Why not just put them in a mentally disabled class with Makaton The Makaton Charity or an approach like that seen at the Children's Center for Communication? The Children's Center for Communication
It's about NEEDS and the fact that "just" Down's/ mentally handicapped kids are at a different level then dhh kids!
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absolutely, that is exactly my standpoint too. ...and for a loong time, many Deaf proponent rejected this combining for that reason, we're not mentally challenged just linguistically challenge and to get that right element in an appropriate environment for education, its that pedagogy which needs to be converted to signs, and keep it up in the standard of mainstream levels, and not retard on the basis of English!
 
I know. I feel like some members are approaching this from a Warm and Fuzzy perspective. Or that we're being exclusive. It's not. It's the simple fact that mentally disabled kids literally function at a different level MENTALLY.
This isn't about " oh we're not going to accept someone who's
Dhh, who also
has a wheelchair/walker, but is otherwise on par. " or " We're not going to accept someone who is dhh with mild LD or behavorial issues or fill in the blank here" And in the deaf units/dhh programs there are very limited specialized resources for significent Deaf plus kids...Most significent deaf plus kids would be better off at a sizable school for the Deaf. Heck, Austine School for the Deaf has a Deaf Austim program.....and there are plenty of deaf-blind programs and Deaf behavorial programs too.
Oh and "just autism" is in the same catagory as "just mental disabilty"
Autistic kids belong in autism programs. Mentally disabled kids belong in mentally disabled programs.
 
deafdyke said:
I know. I feel like some members are approaching this from a Warm and Fuzzy perspective. Or that we're being exclusive. It's not. It's the simple fact that mentally disabled kids literally function at a different level MENTALLY.
This isn't about " oh we're not going to accept someone who's
Dhh, who also
has a wheelchair/walker, but is otherwise on par. " or " We're not going to accept someone who is dhh with mild LD or behavorial issues or fill in the blank here" And in the deaf units/dhh programs there are very limited specialized resources for significent Deaf plus kids...Most significent deaf plus kids would be better off at a sizable school for the Deaf. Heck, Austine School for the Deaf has a Deaf Austim program.....and there are plenty of deaf-blind programs and Deaf behavorial programs too.
Oh and "just autism" is in the same catagory as "just mental disabilty"
Autistic kids belong in autism programs. Mentally disabled kids belong in mentally disabled programs.
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yup, like some members are approaching this from a Warm and Fuzzy perspective its not the just members here, but these gullible public in the real world, who are now facing *budget cuts this and budget cuts that* and *success stories* in the news , duh..I would bet 99% of those 'sucesses' are lies or flukes, and never real....


and thats what 'politically correctness' does, it deludes unrealistic people to think they're the experts. . . .:roll:
 
Grummer said:
yup, like some members are approaching this from a Warm and Fuzzy perspective its not the just members here, but these gullible public in the real world, who are now facing *budget cuts this and budget cuts that* and *success stories* in the news , duh..I would bet 99% of those 'sucesses' are lies or flukes, and never real....


and thats what 'politically correctness' does, it deludes unrealistic people to think they're the experts. . . .:roll:
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Love it, love it love it! And it's not even about political correctness or anything.....it's about the fact that mentally handicapped children tend to be on a different level/learn differently from dhh kids. Like they're lumping all disabilties together......Has anyone thought that the mentally handicapped child or the autistic child might not have complex enough language abilty to follow along in a dhh class?
The needs are DIFFERENT. Different...........Might as well suggest putting a Downs kid in an autism class, or a blind class (the type that's like a Sight Saving class of old....meaning a blind specialized resource room)
I did say some apraxia kids might fit in with Deaf ed...but just Downs? If they need specialized educational placement, then just put them in a mentally handicapped class! A lot of them have alternative methodologies and really specialized training available, that might not be available in a dhh class.
 
and Grummer, your post is exactly the reason why I am anti inclusion.....Sure it's good that we no longer have orthapedic units or crippled children's schols. But with inclusion, we're ignoring the fact that kids with special needs need specialized training, instruction etc!
 
CSign said:
Okay then. :ugh2:
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Here's a question. Would you advocate HOH kids attending a life skills class? Right now we're talking about "just" Downs kids placed in a deaf ed setting...we're not talking about Deaf plus kids, or even Down's with apraxia.
 
CSign said:
Why?

Did you notice how you wrote, "not in the same classroom as us"? As if the individual with Down syndrome isn't allowed to be a part of your "group" or "culture" or whatever?

It is no different than a hearing child with DS being mainstreamed in a hearing placement for all or part of the day.

Who is anyone to think that they are entitled to being educated within an exclusive group that fits in one little box?

Hearing people don't have the right to make that argument either, for a hearing child with DS.

That's part of the greater issue- the exclusiveness of it all. Maybe if things weren't so exclusive there wouldn't be the great divide that always seems to rear its ugly head.
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CSign, or perhaps it's simply acknowleging that mentally disabled, deaf plus kids learn at a DIFFERENT LEVEL then do just deaf kids. Some mentally disabled deaf plus kids, may be more nereologically scattered in their abilties....and they could partially mainstream in classes where they have strenghs. It's not about being exclusive. Rather it's more like the reason why schools have both honors, regular and remedial classes.....Much as we might want to be all warm and fuzzy about mentally disabled kids, they need programming specificly for them. Like for example, I vividly remember sitting in my second grade classroom staring at a worksheet on long and short vowel sounds and having NO IDEA what it was I was supposed to do. That is the reality for a mentally disabled kid in a mainstream classroom. A lot of times they are lost and have NO CLUE what is even going ON in a mainstream classroom, b/c it's BEYOND them. Imagine sitting in on a lecture about Harvard level philosophy or physics or another really specialized subject. You'd be totally and completely lost.
Not to mention, that again the sub specialized programming gives them their own peer group. Mentally disabled kids can interact and be friends with normal IQ kids yes, but most of the time its very superfical. It also tends to fall by the wayside as kids get older. Yes, offer some partial inclusion
oppertunties especially for kids who are more nereologically scattered. But I mean I think it says something that many if not most Schools for the Deaf offer special needs programming.........and that's GOOD. I mean, schools for the Deaf need college bound programming, special needs programming and "competitive job market" programming. What is so wrong about having specialized programming? Nobody screams and moans that gifted or AP kids are being "segregated" from the student body b/c they're in special classes.
Fact of the matter is, that just as in the mainstream, school programming tends to be best at educating the average learner. Kids who are gifted or who are mentally disabled tend to lose out in an average class. So why not have specialized programming for them, so they can THRIVE?
 
Interestingly enough...there are separate classes and programs for gifted children and nobody seems to complain about that.
 
Grummer said:
please do expound on this...
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Like AP classes or gifted programs. They wont allow children who are not gifted into these programs because they are designed to meet gifted children's needs and yet, nobody complains.

So, a regular deaf/hh program may not have the resources or the staff may not have the training to meet the needs of children with Down's Syndrome but people have a shit fit if children with Down's Syndrome cant be admitted into those programs.

Just food for thought...:hmm:
 
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