Deaf Education - One size does not fit all

[Kaitin]

Kaitin - Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL.

I don't forget your posts. Usually you talk about how hard ASL is for hearing parents and nothing about how hard communication is for deaf kid. Or deaf kid should learn ASL after learning English - many years later, so probably not so fluent and with years lost without ASL. And often you write about just the deaf kid learning ASL, not the whole family to support the deaf kid in the language of deaf culture and understand the kid's struggle to communicate.

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From September 8, 2007: This is a scenario that Cued Speech could be a significant support. If the child aqauired language through the CS system, they could learn ASL from a native user (deaf teacher) and continue learing English via CS for reading and writing.

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December 10, 2006, about ASL:

The "professionals" that the parents meet as they try to do what is best for their child, in their circumstance, are overwhelmed with biased information.

IMHO, to suggest the parents learn a "foreign language", which in fact can/does take years to become fluent in, and historically has not proven itself to develop literacy, is actually oppressing deaf children.

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November 22, 2007L

Accurate modeling of ASL is not the real world of deaf children with hearing parents.

Hearing people are NOT using SIGN LANGUAGE, they are using signs borrowed from ASL in "plunking" it into their English spoken sentence. The jury is out regarding the "boosting of IQ".

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December 6, 2007: shel90- What you say is true, but it is not the reality of a deaf child in a hearing family. CS is easy to learn and given incentive a family can be proficient in 6 months. To insist a family learn ASL at the time of diagnosis when an option like Cued Speech is available is simply unrealistic for most families. I can invision that if families were provided CS , the deaf child in result will be given the communication/inclusion in the language of their family via CS. The relationships with their deaf children may, or more likly will be quite different.


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December 6, 2007:

Kaitin - In a hearing family with a deaf child, yes I would say 100 % English via CS. If the family can provide access to a native ASL user then the child should be provided both.

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December 15, 2007:

fredfam- When a hearing parent learns to cue they already know the language, they simply need to learn the system of Cued Speech. This is not the case as you are aware with ASL. Learning a new language is a difficult process for an older person even if it is "just for fun".

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December 24, 2006:

Do not misunderstand me here, I value ASL for the wonderful communication tool that it is, beyond doubt. I do however, struggle with hearing people expending their energy with advertising ASL. The promotion of ASL, imho, is simply missing the needs of the young deaf child. If you have been enlightened in this regard, then indeed, I am pleased.

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December 29. 2005:

The number of users of CE/CS, imo, is not relevent to this discussion, for me. If a child has the opportunity to learn the language of his/her family via CS, the simple fact that they are able to communicate in whole sentences, phonetically, (the same way that a hearing child does), learning their families language, within their own family unit, imho, is a win win situation. Once a child has mastered their own family language, both in reading and writing, after all as parents we do wish our children to accomplish this, with as little pain as possible, then learning a second language is that much easier.

Deaf children must pay an exhausting amount of attention. no matter what communication method they use. Deaf children should learn ASL, from native signers, but imho, after they have mastered the language of their family. To insist that hearing parents learn ASL upon diagnosis of their deaf child, imo, is simply unfair to everyone, including the deaf child.

Language/communication should start at home, with the people who are most influential in a childs life; his/her parents.

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May 25, 2006 (about hearing parents learning ASL and teaching deaf kids): Why would you want deaf children to struggle with learning ASL from hearing people who often are not good models of ASL?

SM, yet again I will say: The best time for children, deaf and hearing to learn a language prior to 6 years of age. Deaf children of hearing parents are often not given access to the complete language, ASL or English. This happens for many reasons, this is simply the way that it is.

You do not want deaf children to know their families language, why?

ASL is a great communication tool. ASL, in a hearing family with a deaf child.. deaf child can read and write English? No

Do you get it?

 

[jillio]

My, oh, my! Caught right in the middle of numerous contradictions yet again!

Good work, Katilin.

 

[flip]

flip - Again, I do not present Cued Speech as oralism, understand please that you need not voice when you cue. ASL is unhealthy, unhealthy, honestly you take this to an odd level. Do you agree that ASL is a foreign language? Do you agree that the learning of ASL can/is a difficult venture for some/most hearing families?

No, no. ASL is not difficult. Get a proper ASL instructor and open your mind and have fun. Part of you hostility toward ASL includes telling parents that ASL is too hard to learn, as we see here by your rhetoric question.

I promote a system that gives visual, kinesthetic and some auditory(although of course not always the case), for hearing parents to use as an early intervention tool with their deaf child. For you somehow this is a bad thing?

According to correlative findings in modern linqustics, this "somehow" is a bad thing. Just let's hope that hearing people don't get weird ideas from NCSA and tries to raise deaf children with morse code.

flip - I am fimiliar with the programs locally that call themselves "bi/bi". As I have said before, nice on paper, but not necessarily the "real deal". Frankly flip, the child needs to have access to language way before they get to school. The language of their family from their family and ASL from a Deaf role model fluent in ASL, preferably.

If you know everything about bi-bi, then why did you ask? Again this lie that ASL is too hard to learn for parents so you can promote NCSA cued speech.

flip - Certainly reads that way for me. I habour no hostility toward ASL, a language cannot in and of itself be bad.

You habour hostility towards the use of ASL.

 

[loml]

No, no. ASL is not difficult. Get a proper ASL instructor and open your mind and have fun. Part of you hostility toward ASL includes telling parents that ASL is too hard to learn, as we see here by your rhetoric question.

flip - If ASL learning was/is that easy as you claim for heairng parents to learn, then there would be no issue. I have learned ASL, from the Deaf community flip, have you learned Cued Speech? Familes need to be informed of all their choices flip.

According to correlative findings in modern linqustics, this "somehow" is a bad thing. Just let's hope that hearing people don't get weird ideas from NCSA and tries to raise deaf children with morse code.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Your statements reflects your misinformation of what Cued Speech is.

If you know everything about bi-bi, then why did you ask? Again this lie that ASL is too hard to learn for parents so you can promote NCSA cued speech.

flip - Please stop with the embellishments.:roll: I have never said I know everything about bi-bi.

You habour hostility towards the use of ASL.

flip - Another inaccurate statement.

 

[flip]

flip - If ASL learning was/is that easy as you claim for heairng parents to learn, then there would be no issue. I have learned ASL, from the Deaf community flip, have you learned Cued Speech? Familes need to be informed of all their choices flip.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Your statements reflects your misinformation of what Cued Speech is.
flip - Please stop with the embellishments.:roll: I have never said I know everything about bi-bi.
flip - Another inaccurate statement.

Your lack of responses with content and the hollow questions speak volumes.

Audists among speech therapists, doctors, audiologists and oral ed teachers have been known to make claims that ASL is too hard to learn for parents for decades. You are in good company with them when you put up this old oral myth here. Cued speech as early interventation is an easy way out for parents in exactly the same manner as AVT, and both are risky. The biggest difference as I can see, is it's more work for parents with cued speech.

It's a large number of preschool teachers and parents out there who learn ASL to get an early as possible language intervention with hearing babies. You should ask yourself why they go for ASL even if they do not know it and their babies are hearing. Check this link for some sane reading on learning ASL to use with babies.

Baby Sign Language – How do I as a parent learn?

Cut'ed and past'ed:

"Remember that it will take several weeks of signing before your infant will produce the first gesture so you have plenty of time to practice."

"It is pretty easy for parents to learn Baby Sign Language and begin teaching it almost immediately to your infant. Access the many support materials available and start right away! The sooner your infant begins learning the signs and gestures, the sooner you will have that first early two-way conversation with your baby."

 

[loml]

Your lack of responses with content and the hollow questions speak volumes.

flip - You, me and the rest of the world are all intilted to our opinions.

Audists among speech therapists, doctors, audiologists and oral ed teachers have been known to make claims that ASL is too hard to learn for parents for decades. You are in good company with them when you put up this old oral myth here. Cued speech as early interventation is an easy way out for parents in exactly the same manner as AVT, and both are risky. The biggest difference as I can see, is it's more work for parents with cued speech.

flip - There is nothing easy about having a deaf child.

It's a large number of preschool teachers and parents out there who learn ASL to get an early as possible language intervention with hearing babies. You should ask yourself why they go for ASL even if they do not know it and their babies are hearing. Check this link for some sane reading on learning ASL to use with babies.

Baby Sign Language – How do I as a parent learn?

Cut'ed and past'ed:

"Remember that it will take several weeks of signing before your infant will produce the first gesture so you have plenty of time to practice."

"It is pretty easy for parents to learn Baby Sign Language and begin teaching it almost immediately to your infant. Access the many support materials available and start right away! The sooner your infant begins learning the signs and gestures, the sooner you will have that first early two-way conversation with your baby."

flip - Good for them flip! I am familiar with the baby sign programs. Hearing people taking ASL signs, putting them into the English spoken sentence.

Supplementing spoken language with a visual is a good thing, something Cued Speech also does, cueing in the language of their family! If baby sign gives parents some piece of mind and support prior to verbalization fine. It does not provide children with an accurate fluent model of ASL the language. Cute at the time though.

 

[loml]

Originally posted by Kaitin

Isn't the family learning ASL a great gift TO a deaf child FROM a hearing family? If they start when the kid is a baby and keep learning, the parents could have good ASL skills when the kid is a few years old and then the kid and parents maybe are fluent. What a great gift! Since the hearing world doesn't give deaf kids a lot of gifts about language and communication and the deaf kid struggles with communication the whole life, parents learning ASL seems great - they will know the language of Deaf culture and learning the struggle to communicate.

Originally Posted by loml

Kaitin - Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL.

Originally posted by Kaitin

I don't forget your posts. Usually you talk about how hard ASL is for hearing parents and nothing about how hard communication is for deaf kid.

Kaitin - Not sure why you see this as having to come from me. I share information about Cued Speech. If you want to talk about these other topics, please do.

Originally posted by Kaitin

Or deaf kid should learn ASL after learning English - many years later, so probably not so fluent and with years lost without ASL. And often you write about just the deaf kid learning ASL, not the whole family to support the deaf kid in the language of deaf culture and understand the kid's struggle to communicate.

Kaitin-

Originally posted by loml

Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL

 

[loml]

originally posted by loml

If I recall, you have stated that some of these children with language delays can be coined "oral failures". I believe you also support oral skills for deaf children, what do you beleive needs to happen for these children, so that they are not "oral failures"?

shel90- Would be so kind as to share your ideas on this please?

 

[Silentwolfdog]

Yes, I do agree. That learning the sign language is the greatest gift that the parent can ever give to their deaf child. For what they did is opening up the world in child's eye.

 

[flip]

flip - There is nothing easy about having a deaf child.

That true if you choose the oral route, AVT or cued speech, but fortunately we have bi-bi and ASL that gives kids a normal language development with no resistance. The "nothing easy about having a deaf child" is depressing and perhaps your view on deafness in a nutshell.

flip - Good for them flip! I am familiar with the baby sign programs. Hearing people taking ASL signs, putting them into the English spoken sentence.
Supplementing spoken language with a visual is a good thing, something Cued Speech also does, cueing in the language of their family! If baby sign gives parents some piece of mind and support prior to verbalization fine. It does not provide children with an accurate fluent model of ASL the language. Cute at the time though.

Baby sign language is not about SEE, as you wrongly claim here, but ASL, a rich and indepedent language on it's own. I hope no parents here belive the crap you said here. They have a very good reason for not using cued speech in those programs, but ASL, and I challenge you to find that reason. If you find that reason, you will perhaps manage to get out of that horrible cued speech mental trap you are caught in.

 

[jillio]

Your lack of responses with content and the hollow questions speak volumes.

Audists among speech therapists, doctors, audiologists and oral ed teachers have been known to make claims that ASL is too hard to learn for parents for decades. You are in good company with them when you put up this old oral myth here. Cued speech as early interventation is an easy way out for parents in exactly the same manner as AVT, and both are risky. The biggest difference as I can see, is it's more work for parents with cued speech.

It's a large number of preschool teachers and parents out there who learn ASL to get an early as possible language intervention with hearing babies. You should ask yourself why they go for ASL even if they do not know it and their babies are hearing. Check this link for some sane reading on learning ASL to use with babies.

And, in fact, loml herself, has claimed in numerous posts that ASL is extermely difficult for hearing parents to learn, and has cited the ease with which CS can be learned as the main benefit for hearing families. Likewise, she has been reminded in numerous relpies that ease for the family is not the issue, the effectiveness for the deaf child is the issue.Baby Sign Language – How do I as a parent learn?

Cut'ed and past'ed:

"Remember that it will take several weeks of signing before your infant will produce the first gesture so you have plenty of time to practice."

"It is pretty easy for parents to learn Baby Sign Language and begin teaching it almost immediately to your infant. Access the many support materials available and start right away! The sooner your infant begins learning the signs and gestures, the sooner you will have that first early two-way conversation with your baby."

 

[jillio]

Originally posted by Kaitin



Originally Posted by loml




Originally posted by Kaitin



Kaitin - Not sure why you see this as having to come from me. I share information about Cued Speech. If you want to talk about these other topics, please do.

Originally posted by Kaitin



Kaitin-

Originally posted by loml

You have also made it clear that you believe that ASL should be learned after, and only after, English. It is very, very clear that you support spolen English as the L1 language for deaf children.

We all see it as coming from you, because you posted it. Very simple. You post what supports your viewpoint. No way to wiggle out of that one, loml.

 

[jillio]

originally posted by loml


shel90- Would be so kind as to share your ideas on this please?

Shel has shared her ideas and her solutions to the above on any numerous occasions. You simply have not accepted what she has shared.

 

[jillio]

That true if you choose the oral route, AVT or cued speech, but fortunately we have bi-bi and ASL that gives kids a normal language development with no resistance. The "nothing easy about having a deaf child" is depressing and perhaps your view on deafness in a nutshell.

Baby sign language is not about SEE, as you wrongly claim here, but ASL, a rich and indepedent language on it's own. I hope no parents here belive the crap you said here. They have a very good reason for not using cued speech in those programs, but ASL, and I challenge you to find that reason. If you find that reason, you will perhaps manage to get out of that horrible cued speech mental trap you are caught in.

There is nothing easy about raising any child. But there is nothing inherently more difficult about raising a deaf child, either, if you are willing to do what needs to be done from the child's deaf perspective. I find your "oh, the poor parents of a deaf child" perspective extremely discrimionatory toward the deaf child and just another indication that your focus is in the parent and not the child.

Agreed. Baby sign isn't about SEE. But loml is so English based that she sees everything from that perspective. True, it is a mental trap.

 

[Tousi]

To attempt to try to see why Loml is rabid about CS and not embracing ASL/English in education and I emphasize educational strategy ONLY. There are pockets, here and there, of deaf extremists in this country and in Canada, people who I have absolutely no time for. My suspicion is that Loml lives within one such pocket of people and if that's the case, well, then......

 

[loml]

That true if you choose the oral route, AVT or cued speech, but fortunately we have bi-bi and ASL that gives kids a normal language development with no resistance. The "nothing easy about having a deaf child" is depressing and perhaps your view on deafness in a nutshell.[

flip - Raising children period, is not easy. Sorry if you find the statements depressing. Where is the true bi-bi flip? There isn't one. Looks good in the books, but find a real one flip. That is the reality.

People on this board profess to support ASL and oral. What tools are you suggesting the oral program use to create a successful oral program? Quit avoiding the question. If you can't be part of the solution, then what part are you?

Baby sign language is not about SEE, as you wrongly claim here, but ASL, a rich and indepedent language on it's own. I hope no parents here belive the crap you said here. They have a very good reason for not using cued speech in those programs, but ASL, and I challenge you to find that reason. If you find that reason, you will perhaps manage to get out of that horrible cued speech mental trap you are caught in.

flip - I did not say baby sign was SEE, I said:

originally posted by loml

flip - Good for them flip! I am familiar with the baby sign programs. Hearing people taking ASL signs, putting them into the English spoken sentence. Supplementing spoken language with a visual is a good thing, something Cued Speech also does, cueing in the language of their family! If baby sign gives parents some piece of mind and support prior to verbalization fine. It does not provide children with an accurate fluent model of ASL the language. Cute at the time though.

 

[shel90]

Thank you shel90.

If I recall, you have stated that some of these children with language delays can be coined "oral failures". I believe you also support oral skills for deaf children, what do you beleive needs to happen for these children, so that they are not "oral failures"?

I never ever call these kids failures. The system failed them.

 

[shel90]

originally posted by loml


shel90- Would be so kind as to share your ideas on this please?

I have been bedridden with a flu and a high fever for the last 2 days. I am just recovering now and cant really think clearly. I will answer the question later when I am more alert. My mind is still in a state of fog.

 

[loml]

I have been bedridden with a flu and a high fever for the last 2 days. I am just recovering now and cant really think clearly. I will answer the question later when I am more alert. My mind is still in a state of fog.

I am sorry to hear that you are not well. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[loml]

I never ever call these kids failures. The system failed them.

shel90- Please understand, I did not say the kids were failures. There many components to success and failure.