Considering implant for your child

[Bottesini]

Oh come on, he didn't say any of that. You might interpret someone success with CI and appreciation for hearing to mean that, but that only shows what you believe.

He said life is better, he enjoys sound, speech understanding, and music. He said he's had both perspectives. He suggests CI for babies.

He did not say hearies are better than Deafies, or that Deaf are second class.
He didn't say fixed, you assumed fixed. It's not a fix, it's an augment. He didn't even imply fix.

In fact, those words wouldn't even be here if you hadn't put them here.

He just shared his experience hearing and not hearing, and made a recommendation based on his experience. Is it wrong for people to share their experiences now?

No, he really did.

That's an extremely audist view

 

[Nic]

No, he really did.

That's an extremely audist view

I don't think I understand audism well enough yet then. What I read was a personal experience, his opinion. He values hearing and had a good experience getting a CI. He did also make the recommendation, based on his opinion and experience, that people get their kids implanted.

An ableism is about discrimination and prejudice. Saying "I like being mobile, and I value my wheelchair because it gives me mobility" doesn't' make someone an albeist, does it?. There's a 1:1 relationship between that statement and the one the guy made about his CI.

He does use the word better... But it's grounded on his original statement "as a deaf adult...", so it should be read as opinion and experience.

If someone says it's better to have a wheel chair because it improves mobility, it's not an ableist remark, is it?

I just want to understand this better.

 

[KarissaMann05]

there are TOO many babies at age 5 months old who received CI. It has been spreading out everywhere. Oh well. I accepted it.

Yep. Even few Deaf friends of mine were being bitched by other hearing parents for using ASL and not choosing CI. Don't you notice how often it is?

Pathetic.

I would love to have kids someday but I'm not sure how I can handle audism and CPS. Keri's story did scare me little.

 

[shel90]

I feel bad for the kids who endure the pain after surgery especially babies who don't understand what's happening.

 

[Crickets]

I feel bad for the kids who endure the pain after surgery especially babies who don't understand what's happening.

Well, children and babies undergo other types of surgery all the time for things like cleft lip and palate, webbed or fused fingers and toes, cataracts, etc., that they could survive without (because those surgeries didn't used to be options). Parents decide to have surgery done on their children to hopefully give their children a better and easier life. Now, people may disagree on what a "better and easier life" means or about whether certain surgeries should be done, but in the end it's up to the parents to make the choice for their children (unless it can be determined legally that the parent's choice endangers the health of the child). Parents make medical decisions all the time for their children without waiting for them to grow up and make the decision for themselves - that's part of what being a parent is.

I had surgery as an infant and don't remember a thing about it. That's one positive thing about surgery for young children - they're less likely to remember it afterwards than older children.

 

[dogmom]

For me, Nic - in your post #42, where you mention the example of the person who uses the wheelchair.... I see it as not the best analogy because there is no actual sociological culture related w/using a wheelchair. Whereas, there is a culture with Deaf- which is implicitly and explicitly denied and marginalized through the continued perpetuation of CI in babies and toddlers.

"hearing" and "Hearing" are values imposed on Deaf by a hearing majority
i see this from the marginalist perspective

 

[dogmom]

None of those things mentioned in post #45 have anything to do directly with language and heritage. They are considered medical things...and are also dependent on the values of the society in which the child is raised.

CI's directly impact an ethnic and cultural group

 

[LoveBlue]

Just some thoughts that crossed my mind. I will not get into a debate about it because I feel I can "see" both sides.

Hearing loss is medical and as such, someone who was not raised in the Deaf culture will not understand the cultural aspect of it. They will want their child to be able to communicate in the same way they do

If someone adopts a child from a foreign country, won't they most likely raise that child to speak their language, not the language of the child's home country. Yes, I know there are people who give their children access to their home country's language, culture, etc. And there are parents who give their deaf children access to ASL and the Deaf culture.

 

[Crickets]

None of those things mentioned in post #45 have anything to do directly with language and heritage. They are considered medical things...and are also dependent on the values of the society in which the child is raised.

CI's directly impact an ethnic and cultural group

Many of the surgeries I mentioned have to do with language. Babies with cataracts have trouble seeing, which impacts their ability to communicate and interact with the world. Babies with cleft palate and lips also have trouble speaking and communicating. Fused fingers could prevent a child from being able to write - or sign - and therefore also impacts their ability to communicate.

Both of my brothers had surgery that impoved their hearing, and one of them no longer needs hearing aids, so for them their deafness was definitely a medical condition that surgery helped. A couple of my cousins had meningitis when they were young and lost some of their hearing as a result and now wear hearing aids. Their ears don't work as well now due to a medical condition, and their hearing today would be worse if their meningitis hadn't been treated medically. I was born without some of the cochlear hair cells in one of my ears - also a medical condition.

Look, I understand that many people who are deaf/Deaf like it that way and are perfectly happy the way they are, and that's fantastic. More power to them - that's their choice and I wish them happiness and long lives. But I wear hearing aids for the same reason I wear glasses and use an inhaler - parts of my body don't work the way they should due to medical conditions. I am extremely near-sighted, have worsening sensorineural deafness, and mild asthma. My glasses, hearing aids, and inhaler all make my life more enjoyable and easier - I don't go anywhere without them.

If you don't believe that deafness is a "medical thing" then that's you're right to think and live that way, but most of the world doesn't share that belief because most of the world is hearing. It's not "audist" to say that - it's simply a fact. Most people can hear, so the world is geared towards hearing folks, just as it's geared towards people who can walk and see. Deaf people have their own cultures and languages, but most people who are deaf were once hearing or grew up with hearing parents, so they aren't part of Deaf culture and don't necessarily think that deafness isn't a "medical thing." That doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make your opinion wrong, either - it's based on different people's perspectives.

 

[hoichi]

[

Well, children and babies undergo other types of surgery all the time for things like cleft lip and palate, webbed or fused fingers and toes, cataracts, etc., that they could survive without (because those surgeries didn't used to be options). Parents decide to have surgery done on their children to hopefully give their children a better and easier life. Now, people may disagree on what a "better and easier life" means or about whether certain surgeries should be done, but in the end it's up to the parents to make the choice for their children (unless it can be determined legally that the parent's choice endangers the health of the child). Parents make medical decisions all the time for their children without waiting for them to grow up and make the decision for themselves - that's part of what being a parent is.

This as usual ignores socially conditioned free will, cohersion, manipulation, and manufactured dependence for a product, it also ignores ci is an international industry and in some countires where implants occure litle or no choice is even given,
To be clear again, no one has denied parents mske the choice in america (for the sake of this discussion) to implant, so ststing water is wet only goes so far, what we are trying to discuss is not if water is wet,but the actual powers involved overt and covert that are brought to bare on parents to implant. Its a billion dollor industry, one has to ask how much free choice do two scared parents with a newborn Deaf baby actually make when confronted with a white coat doctor pedding a maricle cure
Another important fact to keep in mind, is the history here, in th 80s those in the new ci industry couldnt fathom snd wrap their heads around why adult Deaf were not falling over themselves to implant, to get the new technological messiah offered them. Market forcasts were done, a number of times, it wasnt just price, or bulkiness, so a bussiness decision, (not a medical one), was implemented to push to widen the ci market, for profit, to implant babies and children, in some countires, france as an example, babies were implanted against medical advice of the leading pedatric surgeon of the country who was horrified at what occured, the idea was once the implantng of babies occured, the momentum woukd be hsrd to stop (which trned out correct), but to wait for approval, Deaf wishes would be able to be known, along with oir communities and peoples opposition. Thus, money was the main factor, the market needed to widen....our wishes or not...ci implants in babies was rubber stamped by the fda in america in 1990...hugely widining the small market for the product. deaf wishes, were utter ignored, no other product in history has been so widely used on people while ignoring the very people the product touts to help.
And we are constantly attacked and scooded for our resistance to this assimilation.

I had surgery as an infant and don't remember a thing about it. That's one positive thing about surgery for young children - they're less likely to remember it afterwards than older children.

Your very good at missing the point, i grant you that.

 

[hoichi]

[

Many of the surgeries I mentioned have to do with language.s.

Many? Really?....i know why your grasping at straws, i do. It sucks for adherents to have the true colors of their messiah shown. I get it. I do.
But cataracts dont prevent one.from learning english, or seperate them from a majority culture. Those with cataracts, or fused fingers, or a ckeft pallat, dont have their own culture, or language, or history...so really while i understand your need to grasp at anything here to defend your messiah technology, the comparison just is almost silly

Babies with cataracts have trouble seeing, which impacts their ability to communicate and interact with the world. s.

See above

Babies with cleft palate and lips also have trouble speaking and communicating. Fused fingers could prevent a child from being able to write - or sign - and therefore also impacts their ability to communicate.s.

See above

MBoth of my brothers had surgery that impoved their hearing, and one of them no longer needs hearing aids, so for them their deafness was definitely a medical condition that surgery helped. A couple of my cousins had meningitis when they were young and lost some of their hearing as a result and now wear hearing aids. Their ears don't work as well now due to a medical condition, and their hearing today would be worse if their meningitis hadn't been treated medically. I was born without some of the cochlear hair cells in one of my ears - also a medical condition. s.

Alright

Look, I understand that many people who are deaf/Deaf like it that way and are perfectly happy the way they are, and that's fantastic. More power to them - that's their choice and I wish them happiness and long lives. But I wear hearing aids for the same reason I wear glasses and use an inhaler - parts of my body don't work the way they should due to medical conditions. I am extremely near-sighted, have worsening sensorineural deafness, and mild asthma. My glasses, hearing aids, and inhaler all make my life more enjoyable and easier - I don't go anywhere without them.s.

Ok

If you don't believe that deafness is a "medical thing" then that's you're right to think and live that way, but most of the world doesn't share that belief because most of the world is hearing. It's not "audist" to say that - it's simply a fact. s.

And a fact is america is majority white too. Should the majoirty have used a technology to assimilate blacks, rather then other means to address discrimination?

Most people can hear, so the world is geared towards hearing folks, just as it's geared towards people who can walk and see. Deaf people have their own cultures and languages, but most people who are deaf were once hearing or grew up with hearing parents, so they aren't part of Deaf culture and don't necessarily think that deafness isn't a "medical thing." That doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make your opinion wrong, either - it's based on different people's perspectives.

Your ignoring some fundementanals. Here. America is majority white and is geared to whites. Sure. I grant that.
This discussion isnt about late deafened adults who get ci, its about Deaf babies being inflicted with ci, and having no damn.choice about it.

 

[hoichi]

Just some thoughts that crossed my mind. I will not get into a debate about it because I feel I can "see" both sides.

Hearing loss is medical and as such, someone who was not raised in the Deaf culture will not understand the cultural aspect of it. They will want their child to be able to communicate in the same way they do

If someone adopts a child from a foreign country, won't they most likely raise that child to speak their language, not the language of the child's home country. Yes, I know there are people who give their children access to their home country's language, culture, etc. And there are parents who give their deaf children access to ASL and the Deaf culture.

My parents and family learned sign....i would like to think, my blood are so super unique royal and special that no others can fathom such an idea...gosh to lesrn sign......thats just crazy...!!
They wanted to communicate with me, (i can move my beak like a usual herie parrot), but that is just one way communication...so rather then imposing on.the child they decided to also learn the language i use...
Why this is so so difficult for most hearies to accept is just plain straight adusim and prejudice.....also ci is a.billion dollor indistry with the best marketing deep pockets can buy....and thst goes a long way in.forming public ideas and opinions...

 

[Nic]

For me, Nic - in your post #42, where you mention the example of the person who uses the wheelchair.... I see it as not the best analogy because there is no actual sociological culture related w/using a wheelchair. Whereas, there is a culture with Deaf- which is implicitly and explicitly denied and marginalized through the continued perpetuation of CI in babies and toddlers.

"hearing" and "Hearing" are values imposed on Deaf by a hearing majority
i see this from the marginalist perspective

Thank dogmom, that makes sense to me. I still need to get a better grasp on how deaf and Deaf are connected but still separate. I think I have a pretty good grasp on how they're separate, its the coupling I still need to figure out more.

 

[hoichi]

Thank dogmom, that makes sense to me. I still need to get a better grasp on how deaf and Deaf are connected but still separate. I think I have a pretty good grasp on how they're separate, its the coupling I still need to figure out more.

Paddy lads, understanding Deaf culture willbe a good book to read..

 

[HOH-ME]

Just curious if you are fluent in Sign Language and at what age you learned it?

I'm not, never learned it. I live in a hearing world, always have, always will. NO need for sign language that NO ONE I know uses....

there are TOO many babies at age 5 months old who received CI. It has been spreading out everywhere. Oh well. I accepted it.

No there are not...FDA guidelines do not allow that...besides, even if they did, so what??

Here are his words, with a word changed



"As a white adult who was once black. , get your black baby to the white clinic as fast as you can. Life is SOOOOOO much better bieng white. ..... I've been on both sides, white is FAR better than not!!"

That is with one word changed, i aso removed speech,and music to keep it docused....to demonstrate a point
How would blacks take this? What would be inferred?

No, he really did.
That's an extremely audist view

Yep--extreme, whatever. You two are really reaching for it and yes, my hearing is FIXED...HALLELUJAH, AMEN, HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!

 

[hoichi]

[

I'm not, never learned it. I live in a hearing world, always have, always will. NO need for sign language that NO ONE I know uses....

That explains it...(roll eyes)

No there are not...FDA guidelines do not allow that...besides, even if they did, so what??

Would you support forced implants on Deaf adults? Or is it just forced implants on babies you have a hard on for?

Yep--extreme, whatever. You two are really reaching for it and yes, my hearing is FIXED...HALLELUJAH, AMEN, HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!

Yeah, proud like a.fixed dog no less..
Meh

 

[soutthpaw]

As a deaf adult who now has CI's, get your deaf baby to the CI clinic as fast as you can. Life is SOOOOOO much better with sound, speech understanding and music. I've been on both sides, hearing is FAR better than not!!

So being that you never learned ASL, your statement is biased and unsubstantiated. You have no knowledge of life with visual language. You don't seem to be aware of the process of natural language acquisition. Nor the limitations of mapping CI's for infants and young children.
While I'm not saying don't implant your child. I am saying don't use or expect a CI to replace the Natural Language of the Deaf.
3 choices should exist
ASL
ASL+ non-invasive assistive listening devices (hearing aids)
ASL +CI.

Note: ASL would be replaced by the sign language used where the child lives.

CI without sign language should never be an option for infants our young children!

 

[Bottesini]

I'm not, never learned it. I live in a hearing world, always have, always will. NO need for sign language that NO ONE I know



Yep--extreme, whatever. You two are really reaching for it and yes, my hearing is FIXED...HALLELUJAH, AMEN, HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!

You mistake me for someone who has an interest in you.

Only pointing out for Nic that you are nothing but a hearie who lost it, then got implanted.

You are not Deaf and know nothing about it.

All your views are hearing centric.

 

[dogmom]

Nic - no problem

hoichi

 

[hoichi]

dogmom