Article about theories of dog evolution

Jezie

Well-Known Member
I would love to see their findings... seems interesting... and it is awesome that so many groups are coming together like this... wonder how each with interpret the data though....

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dogmom

Well-Known Member
yes, I found it very intriguing1 I have a book Ray C' s <author mentioned in the article> and he wrote about the theory of "village scavenger dog" as an evolutionary pathway as opposed to "early peoples tame wolves" idea.
One of the reasons I do like it is that it helps us get away from the whole "dominance" paradigm which many still subscribe to
 

whatdidyousay!

Well-Known Member
I find it very interesting that you posted this when you did , b/c I was just thinking about this and was going to try and find something like this here. I was thinking the only reason Marty want to be with me is b/c he doesn't have to hunt for his food and has a warm place to sleep every night . And people think dogs aren't smart ! I can see why this person feel this way below. This is from your link. :ty: for posting this dogmom !

"Some researchers question whether dogs experience feelings like love and loyalty, or whether their winning ways are just a matter of instincts that evolved because being a hanger-on is an easier way to make a living than running down elk. Raymond Coppinger, a professor emeritus of biology at Hampshire College, noted in his landmark 2001 book, “Dogs,” that “best friend” is not an “ecological definition.” And he suggested that “the domestic house dog may have evolved into a parasite.”
 

Jezie

Well-Known Member
yes, I found it very intriguing1 I have a book Ray C' s <author mentioned in the article> and he wrote about the theory of "village scavenger dog" as an evolutionary pathway as opposed to "early peoples tame wolves" idea.
One of the reasons I do like it is that it helps us get away from the whole "dominance" paradigm which many still subscribe to

It is sad that that is how people think... yet it does beat the whole yank and spank method... granted I do not agree with the treats or kid doctrines as well... but then... dogs and I have an understanding lol
I am not sure about feral dogs not running in packs.... they do not have the same pack structure but I blme humans for that. Look at domesticated quail... they are without a doubt the same as wild birds... yet they do not hatch or care for thier young at all... so it makes sense that human intervention has changed the behavior of dogs...

Bringing this back to them, studies have been done on dog behavior... it is noted that if you give a wolf a puzzle they will fight with it without end, some seek packmates help.... a dog puppy will do the same, while and adult dog will attempt it then stop looking to the human to fix it. We have made them emotionally and mentally dependant on us...

They learn from puppyhood so the pack structure of a wolf may be just that... a learned behvior... I cannot think of many social animals that went tken amd bred out of its normal social struture for it to be an instinctive social struture...

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dogmom

Well-Known Member
yeah there were some interesting studies as you mention, about the degree to which dogs recognize human gestures and seek human aid, and what human-socialized wolves do when faced with the same problems.
also there was a study about the differences in human-raised wolf behavior versus dog behavior, where the wolves were taken as very young cubs and given the same household setting, experiences and enrichment as the dog pups, but the results were very different.

as a trainer I do use and recommend treats <especially with puppies> but will explain how a treat is not the same as a bribe. I'm a crossover trainer and years ago also did the yank thing; I remember well my first ever dog training class with my beloved first Rottie. The class was run by military ex-K9. I was urged to put a prong on a 6-month old simply because she was reluctant to leave the instructor's adult Shepherd <who was in a Long Down on the edge of our heeling circle> alone.
Luckily I had a very forgiving and for a Rottie -mellow- dog.

It is interesting to compare dog group dynamics with wolf pack structure.
 

whatdidyousay!

Well-Known Member
yeah there were some interesting studies as you mention, about the degree to which dogs recognize human gestures and seek human aid, and what human-socialized wolves do when faced with the same problems.
also there was a study about the differences in human-raised wolf behavior versus dog behavior, where the wolves were taken as very young cubs and given the same household setting, experiences and enrichment as the dog pups, but the results were very different.

as a trainer I do use and recommend treats <especially with puppies> but will explain how a treat is not the same as a bribe. I'm a crossover trainer and years ago also did the yank thing; I remember well my first ever dog training class with my beloved first Rottie. The class was run by military ex-K9. I was urged to put a prong on a 6-month old simply because she was reluctant to leave the instructor's adult Shepherd <who was in a Long Down on the edge of our heeling circle> alone.
Luckily I had a very forgiving and for a Rottie -mellow- dog.

It is interesting to compare dog group dynamics with wolf pack structure.

I went to a wolf sanctuary and as people were leaving the person who started the sanctuary was holding a wolf that was just about out of puppyhood . The guy told us not to try and pet it b/c the wolf was just
becoming fearful of people . The wolf only trusted people it saw everyday and that could change as it got older. The guy is no longer alive so I had no idea how the place is run today.
 

dogmom

Well-Known Member
we used to have a wolf sanctuary in a more rural section of the large multi-county urban area we live in. I was actually interested in volunteering there during high school but I didn't know how to drive til after college, and the sanctuary was far from we actually lived at that time, so I never did volunteer. But it was a sanctuary for rescued or dumped "pet" wolves and hybrids. They were beautiful but it was still sad that it had to exist.

Wild wolves and even human-socialized wolves are actually pretty shy. You have to take a wolf pup to be hand-reared at a couple of weeks old to have any chance of that pup being adapted to that particular handler or captive environment. And you're right, they do change very quickly and are soon barely manageable.
there's an article about it here: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/513/20130118/dogs-tamed-wolves-gene-socialization.htm
 

whatdidyousay!

Well-Known Member
we used to have a wolf sanctuary in a more rural section of the large multi-county urban area we live in. I was actually interested in volunteering there during high school but I didn't know how to drive til after college, and the sanctuary was far from we actually lived at that time, so I never did volunteer. But it was a sanctuary for rescued or dumped "pet" wolves and hybrids. They were beautiful but it was still sad that it had to exist.

Wild wolves and even human-socialized wolves are actually pretty shy. You have to take a wolf pup to be hand-reared at a couple of weeks old to have any chance of that pup being adapted to that particular handler or captive environment. And you're right, they do change very quickly and are soon barely manageable.
there's an article about it here: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/513/20130118/dogs-tamed-wolves-gene-socialization.htm

I agree it's sad this the only way wolves can live today , they're being killed off by an alarming rate . :( The wolves I saw were feed road killed
deer etc.
 

Jezie

Well-Known Member
yeah there were some interesting studies as you mention, about the degree to which dogs recognize human gestures and seek human aid, and what human-socialized wolves do when faced with the same problems.
also there was a study about the differences in human-raised wolf behavior versus dog behavior, where the wolves were taken as very young cubs and given the same household setting, experiences and enrichment as the dog pups, but the results were very different.

as a trainer I do use and recommend treats <especially with puppies> but will explain how a treat is not the same as a bribe. I'm a crossover trainer and years ago also did the yank thing; I remember well my first ever dog training class with my beloved first Rottie. The class was run by military ex-K9. I was urged to put a prong on a 6-month old simply because she was reluctant to leave the instructor's adult Shepherd <who was in a Long Down on the edge of our heeling circle> alone.
Luckily I had a very forgiving and for a Rottie -mellow- dog.

It is interesting to compare dog group dynamics with wolf pack structure.

Dogs are awesome like that :) but your post dated you a bit :p I believe any method can work if it is fair and consistent, for those are the two biggest things any dog can recognize and relate to...
I grew up with a yank and spank father and had a German police k9 handler uncle... Who also was strong with the yank and spank...
I am somewhere in the middle and also follow what works for the dog... One trainer that I do like is leerburg... He was also once an yank and spank but has changed greatly as he learned more... As a trainer have you ever come across him?

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dogmom

Well-Known Member
sure have been on his site several times and know he's changed.

Yes, my first Rottie girl <and first personal dog>was in 1998, my husband and I had been married for maybe 2 years and we bought our first house with the intention of having dogs. I was probably about 25 <I suck with numbers though...>though I'd volunteered at animal shelters since high school and attended dog training seminars and public dog training classes w/o a dog.
 

Jezie

Well-Known Member
sure have been on his site several times and know he's changed.

Yes, my first Rottie girl <and first personal dog>was in 1998, my husband and I had been married for maybe 2 years and we bought our first house with the intention of having dogs. I was probably about 25 <I suck with numbers though...>though I'd volunteered at animal shelters since high school and attended dog training seminars and public dog training classes w/o a dog.

Nice... My first followed me home one day... I was in middle school... He would follow me and one day just did not leave the front porch... He would walk up to the bus stop with me and wait until I came home and then follow to the front porch again lol he did that until dad said I could keep him if he was going to stick with me :) knew nothing of dog training but he and I had an understanding and through just my body language or look would do anything I asked... Rare I know but I come to lean that any dog can do that :)

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whatdidyousay!

Well-Known Member
Nice... My first followed me home one day... I was in middle school... He would follow me and one day just did not leave the front porch... He would walk up to the bus stop with me and wait until I came home and then follow to the front porch again lol he did that until dad said I could keep him if he was going to stick with me :) knew nothing of dog training but he and I had an understanding and through just my body language or look would do anything I asked... Rare I know but I come to lean that any dog can do that :)

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A friend and I had a dog pick us for her family . We had back door open and a small black dog just walked right and walked around our kitchen and picked a spot and laid down and looked up at us with her eyes and we knew we just 'adopted' a dog . This happen a second time with another dog and we took her in too. My friend and I joked that there must be a sign in front of the house or dogs were spreading rumors around about us being suckers for homeless dogs. I think it was the latter. :giggle:
 

Jezie

Well-Known Member
A friend and I had a dog pick us for her family . We had back door open and a small black dog just walked right and walked around our kitchen and picked a spot and laid down and looked up at us with her eyes and we knew we just 'adopted' a dog . This happen a second time with another dog and we took her in too. My friend and I joked that there must be a sign in front of the house or dogs were spreading rumors around about us being suckers for homeless dogs. I think it was the latter. :giggle:

Lol awesome... Those are the best... I have been adopted by dogs, cats, birds, a squirrel, and a rabbit... I completely understand the feeling :) the birds, squirrel, and rabbit were all wild and staid that way... But I shared my house with them... The rabbit would cuddle me at night :/ while the birds would allow me to handle them... The squirrel... Well that one became a full fledged pet with its own pillow in the window... I did not feed any of them... But for some reason they claimed me as their human :)

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dogmom

Well-Known Member
so your first furry pal chose you, Jezie:D Lucky you! I'm glad your dad let you keep him!

I had parakeets and hamsters as a child but my parents were not fans of cats or ferrets and while my dad has always loved dogs, when I was a kid I think my parents just didn't want to deal with a dog. I had allergies and was a sickly infant and my mom just got overprotective, as well as we were really low on money for many years.
So I contented myself with wandering my urban neighborhood, looking for stray dogs or dogs tied out in yards to approach or sit with. And I volunteered as mentioned in a previous post. I also dog-sat/walked.
In college I loved going to public dog training classes and would sit in the floor and watch other people train their dogs.

In 8th grade also volunteered at our public museum which at the time had an animal exhibit, til the manager of that project retired. The exhibit housed snakes, birds, ferrets, chinchilla, possums,, rats and possums. I handled most animals but the large snakes <the manager would take one out and hold him for me to pet, though...snakes have never bothered me>, cleaned cages and so on.

I was also a member for a while of a local "horseless horse lovers club" - a learning experience for urban children, to go and learn about/groom other people's <appropriate, pre-planned> horses.
One of the horses at the stable where we went was blind and so gave me the chance to learn about that, too.
 

caz

Active Member
Big thing in news about throwing sticks for dogs is big NO.
I think what you do is marvellous dm.
Years ago I thoughts saw farmer said fox got quickie in with his sheep dog and she had half breed fox dog but not sure if dreamt it if it even possible
 

Jezie

Well-Known Member
so your first furry pal chose you, Jezie:D Lucky you! I'm glad your dad let you keep him!

I had parakeets and hamsters as a child but my parents were not fans of cats or ferrets and while my dad has always loved dogs, when I was a kid I think my parents just didn't want to deal with a dog. I had allergies and was a sickly infant and my mom just got overprotective, as well as we were really low on money for many years.
So I contented myself with wandering my urban neighborhood, looking for stray dogs or dogs tied out in yards to approach or sit with. And I volunteered as mentioned in a previous post. I also dog-sat/walked.
In college I loved going to public dog training classes and would sit in the floor and watch other people train their dogs.

In 8th grade also volunteered at our public museum which at the time had an animal exhibit, til the manager of that project retired. The exhibit housed snakes, birds, ferrets, chinchilla, possums,, rats and possums. I handled most animals but the large snakes <the manager would take one out and hold him for me to pet, though...snakes have never bothered me>, cleaned cages and so on.

I was also a member for a while of a local "horseless horse lovers club" - a learning experience for urban children, to go and learn about/groom other people's <appropriate, pre-planned> horses.
One of the horses at the stable where we went was blind and so gave me the chance to learn about that, too.

I have been lucky :) just about anything that followed me home I could keep... Granted as mentioned not all were fed so why they would I never knew...
That seems like an awesome program (horse less horse lovers)
Curious... Why did the museum have animals?

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dogmom

Well-Known Member
no, I don't agree with taming foxes either-

Don't know why that museum had the exhibit. I believe it was shut down after the guy left and was not re-instituted. Don't believe today one could be started. I wondered this too, at the time and am glad there wasn't an attempt to have another.
I don't know where the animals there, came from. I think sanctuaries or rescues for the specific types of animals, would be better than having them as an exhibit.

I pretty much tried to do as much animal-related things as i could, as a kid.
I can still remember copying from my children's "how to live with a budgie" type handbook, when I was 9 ish. I thought I was "writing a book about animals" and I found it fascinating, so I copied it in clumsy children's block printing.
I also wrote little stories I made up, about other animals.
 
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