Dont Tell Me What To Believe....

[Rose Immortal]

It could be the chemicals or electricity temperory disrupting the brain's functions with the patterns of connections being the person's mind, or the brain being the interface for the spirit to use, or something else. What do we have evidence for? How about proposing what parts or chemicals in the brain are controlled by the spirit so we can watch for behavior in those things that cannot be accounted for by present scienific knowledge?

That would be interesting to figure out, although the narrower the band of "interface frequencies" (for lack of better terms), the tougher that would be to figure out. Personally, I hope that if my idea about interface frequencies is right, that the relevant band is REALLY narrow, maybe almost infinitessimally. I mean, remember what I said about the kind of weapon you could design if that theory turned out to be true...

One interesting thing to detect would be some kind of physics-defying growth of new neural patterns. Not sure how you'd draw the line on what's so abnormal that it would have to be outside interference...plus I bet you'd only see that in the cases of the most extreme circumstances, but still, that may be one place to look.

Do you have an example so I could understand what this is about?

Well, honestly I don't know what kind of account I could give you where you'd not automatically assume that the person was lying or that the people compiling the accounts were manipulating them in some way. I mean, I'm sure I could find something, but the question would be whether you'd accept the person's word or not.

It's not only personal opinion. It may work like that for faith based systems, but with things like science, opinions are limited by what's really seen out there.

Do you make all decisions in your life based solely on science? I'd be kinda worried if you did...just think what that could do to your love life.

Surely you have opinions about things that science can't back up?

It's self-deception if one avoided thinking about the higher levels. I don't avoid thinking about those things. My fields of interests include astronomy, which has a lot of such things like stars dying. I find happiness within things like culture while acknowledging that such things don't last forever. Since they'd outlast me, I can still enjoy it.

But to cut out the implications of those higher levels is self-deception even if you acknowledge that (for instance) stars and supernovas exist. To fail to acknowledge the implications of something like the law of entropy for the universe is self-deception. (I'm aware the heat-death theory is in dispute right now, but I haven't had a chance yet to read up on the alternate theories.)

Thinking that this reality is ugly and without much meaning for humanity reminds me of Lovecraft stories, which I like to read. Thinking that it's terrible that the universe makes humanity be so insufficient makes it seem like humanity somehow had to be the pinnacle of the unvierse, making it terrible that it is not. Instead, I accept that humanity isn't the pinnacle of the entire universe because the universe's structure clearly prevents that from happening. I think of humanity as a tiny, but interesting feature of this part of the universe.

I don't think humanity is the pinnacle of the universe, either, but for different reasons. However, in a view where there is nothing greater (other than the physical, observable universe), it is a pretty bleak thing to realize.

BTW, I've also tried to read Lovecraft. I wasn't really all that pleased with it, but he had an interesting mind, for sure. I think I prefer Poe when it comes to that kind of story.

I don't think that humanity is trying to be stupid by ignoring its environoment. For thousands of years, people had been looking at what's in the sky and what's on Earth. We have missions in space just to find out about what's out there. Looking at what's up there makes me think of the many stars and galaxies out there and imagine what life is like on some of the planets out there. Humanity may disappear someday, but there'll be other planets and other civilizations. The universe is big enough to have plenty over the many trillions of years there will be stars to warm planets.

Thinking about the vastness of the universe doesn't scare or horrify me. Instead, I find wonder in it. A nice way to experience this wonder is to look at sites like this one that shows things at different powers of ten for the spatial scales. The series of images covers 42 orders of magnitude. Life is found over 11 orders of magnitude and is closer to the smaller orders than the larger ones.

I think that maybe there are different sorts of people, people who get scared by things from unfamilar scales like the vastness of the universe or the nondeterminate nature of quantum mechanics, and those who find wonder in those.

I am actually amazed at the size of the universe as well, and find wonder in it too. For me it's more like looking at a REALLY incredible work of art, and to consider every little detail of it is mindblowing in the best of ways. Where I live during the week, I'm out in a rural area and on a clear, moonless night, the view of the stars is UNBELIEVABLE. Heck, I wish you could come see it. But I can approach it, in its full splendor, without fear--even knowing the coldness of the vacuum and the vastness of the distance across it.

However, to live in such a way where I thought that WAS all there was, nothing but the cold and the vacuum to look forward to in the end, and total nothingness--that is a very bleak look on life, and yet the only one available to a true realist (under an atheistic perspective) who strips away all of the mind games and compartmentalization. All other civilizations even past ours will inevitably come to an end and then the physical universe, leaving nothing. The end state of the universe is supremely relevant to what goes on before that time--it is what determines whether there is purpose or not. Whatever its sum total is in the end is paramount--if the universe is infinitely vast (or multiverse, even if this particular one is not), then there are only two ends...a positive or negative infinity. The negative one is quite simply intolerable and reduces everything to an exercise in futility.

 

[RedFox]

That would be interesting to figure out ... I mean, remember what I said about the kind of weapon you could design if that theory turned out to be true...

Well, honestly I don't know what kind of account I could give you where you'd not automatically assume that the person was lying or that the people compiling the accounts were manipulating them in some way. I mean, I'm sure I could find something, but the question would be whether you'd accept the person's word or not.

If you find something you think is good, you could post it here.

Do you make all decisions in your life based solely on science? I'd be kinda worried if you did...just think what that could do to your love life.

Surely you have opinions about things that science can't back up?

I try not having opinions without basis in reality. Science would tell me that it's natural to feel this and that way for a love life, like with biochemistry and psychology, if you call it a science.

But to cut out the implications of those higher levels is self-deception even if you acknowledge that (for instance) stars and supernovas exist. To fail to acknowledge the implications of something like the law of entropy for the universe is self-deception. (I'm aware the heat-death theory is in dispute right now, but I haven't had a chance yet to read up on the alternate theories.)

I'm not ignoring the implications of those. I just don't think of those all the time because I also have things like supper to think about. If I thought about the universe out there all the time, I'd never eat. It's called multitasking.

I don't think humanity is the pinnacle of the universe, either, but for different reasons. However, in a view where there is nothing greater (other than the physical, observable universe), it is a pretty bleak thing to realize.

Why do you think that it's bleak? Is it because most of the space is unsuitable for human life? I don't think of it as bleak because I don't think of humanity as owning the universe.

BTW, I've also tried to read Lovecraft. I wasn't really all that pleased with it, but he had an interesting mind, for sure. I think I prefer Poe when it comes to that kind of story.

Lovecraft makes humanity look unimportant in the universe.

I am actually amazed at the size of the universe as well, and find wonder in it too. For me it's more like looking at a REALLY incredible work of art, and to consider every little detail of it is mindblowing in the best of ways. Where I live during the week, I'm out in a rural area and on a clear, moonless night, the view of the stars is UNBELIEVABLE. Heck, I wish you could come see it. But I can approach it, in its full splendor, without fear--even knowing the coldness of the vacuum and the vastness of the distance across it.

My home is a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere. I can see the dust clouds against the Milky Way.

However, to live in such a way where I thought that WAS all there was, nothing but the cold and the vacuum to look forward to in the end, and total nothingness--that is a very bleak look on life, and yet the only one available to a true realist (under an atheistic perspective) who strips away all of the mind games and compartmentalization. All other civilizations even past ours will inevitably come to an end and then the physical universe, leaving nothing. The end state of the universe is supremely relevant to what goes on before that time--it is what determines whether there is purpose or not. Whatever its sum total is in the end is paramount--if the universe is infinitely vast (or multiverse, even if this particular one is not), then there are only two ends...a positive or negative infinity. The negative one is quite simply intolerable and reduces everything to an exercise in futility.

I know that the universe will become a cold and empty place in the far future. To me, it doesn't make it bleak for humanity because humanity would most likely end before the universe becomes like that. Everybody I know and I would be dead before either of those happen. I consider things like death and the end of civilizations as things that happen sometimes.

The physics they are studying now may allow for more big bangs, so maybe when the universe is empty in the far future, there would be another big bang.

How would the purpose of the universe be determined by what happens and how it ends? It doesn't have to have a purpose. What are the positive and negative sums for the end, do you mean infinite time? What's so intolerable about this negative infinity? A negative infinity of what?

 

[Rose Immortal]

If you find something you think is good, you could post it here.

OK--but please do not expect it right away. I'm in my last semester now and I can't afford to screw it up now.

I try not having opinions without basis in reality. Science would tell me that it's natural to feel this and that way for a love life, like with biochemistry and psychology, if you call it a science.

Well, science would account for the physical attraction as far as I know (hormonal reactions), and the avoidance of abusive/degrading people (survival instinct...we hope; some people seem to rank the physical attraction TOO high if you know what I mean!!), but then you get to psychology. That may help with some compatibility issues like interests, values, and so on...yet sometimes the result of that kind of compatibility is a friendship and not love. I'm not convinced we've explained everything yet when it comes to the workings of the heart...

Why do you think that it's bleak? Is it because most of the space is unsuitable for human life? I don't think of it as bleak because I don't think of humanity as owning the universe.

It's less the idea of the space itself so much as the lack of purpose and meaning and the idea that eventually that everything will revert to a state like that space...near absolute zero, totally uniform, no variation, no change. That is, under the heat-death model of the universe (like I said, it's contested, but other scientific approaches would likely lead to some equally bleak end-state).

My home is a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere. I can see the dust clouds against the Milky Way.

Nice!

I had always been used to living in city/suburban areas before I moved out to where I am now, and I am still amazed by the fact that even with the lights of my apartment complex, I can see the sword of Orion clearly on any cloudless night. You can't see that if you're near a large city or in a large town. It's amazing to me.

I know that the universe will become a cold and empty place in the far future. To me, it doesn't make it bleak for humanity because humanity would most likely end before the universe becomes like that. Everybody I know and I would be dead before either of those happen. I consider things like death and the end of civilizations as things that happen sometimes.

The physics they are studying now may allow for more big bangs, so maybe when the universe is empty in the far future, there would be another big bang.

Is this the string-theory-related stuff, or something else? Would we be talking about a perpetual cycle of creation and destruction? I'd like to clarify first before I discuss implications.

How would the purpose of the universe be determined by what happens and how it ends? It doesn't have to have a purpose. What are the positive and negative sums for the end, do you mean infinite time? What's so intolerable about this negative infinity? A negative infinity of what?

By referring to the end-sum of the universe as infinitely negative, what I mean is that when it is over, it is as if nothing has ever been. No event matters because it is as if it never happened. Its value, its entire existence is completely negated. I can discuss the positive end-sum as well, but I want to see what you say about the negative first.

Sorry for the delay...workweek from hell.

 

[RedFox]

OK--but please do not expect it right away. I'm in my last semester now and I can't afford to screw it up now.

Good luck.

I'm not convinced we've explained everything yet when it comes to the workings of the heart...

It's hard to tell what each person would do because everybody is different in many ways, but we could guess at general things that lots of people would do because they have similar broad characteristics like usually avoiding bad people.

It's less the idea of the space itself so much as the lack of purpose and meaning and the idea that eventually that everything will revert to a state like that space...near absolute zero, totally uniform, no variation, no change. That is, under the heat-death model of the universe (like I said, it's contested, but other scientific approaches would likely lead to some equally bleak end-state).

If everything started out from nothing and returned to nothing, I'd say that it'd be a nice symmetry. It'd be like a story that ended where it began with a very interesting middle. In such stories, you end up appreciating the beginning state more after you've seen the potential it has.

Nice!

I had always been used to living in city/suburban areas before I moved out to where I am now, and I am still amazed by the fact that even with the lights of my apartment complex, I can see the sword of Orion clearly on any cloudless night. You can't see that if you're near a large city or in a large town. It's amazing to me.

The stars of the sword have magnitudes from 2.75 to around 5, so if you can see that, you have a nice sky.

Is this the string-theory-related stuff, or something else? Would we be talking about a perpetual cycle of creation and destruction? I'd like to clarify first before I discuss implications.

I was thinking of this. Yeah, it's related to string theory. Things called branes are said to exist in higher dimensions and when they collide, a big bang happens. So I guess the universe would run down and be empty until another brane hits it and makes a new big bang.

By referring to the end-sum of the universe as infinitely negative, what I mean is that when it is over, it is as if nothing has ever been. No event matters because it is as if it never happened. Its value, its entire existence is completely negated. I can discuss the positive end-sum as well, but I want to see what you say about the negative first.

Sorry for the delay...workweek from hell.

I would use zero to have nothing effectively happen. What sorts of qualities are being summed here?

 

[XBGMER]

here my questions for you. Cheri!

Yikes! You freaked me out XBGMER, about how you said 'Satan is God'. I guess you worship Satan then. :Ohno:

Of course that's your believe. I'm standing back.

RELAX! What make you felt freaked out my courses i mentioned?? because of my being evil words to you!? Did I try to convice you join with me worship satan?? Ahh How do you know that I worship Satan?? if so, where is prove me I am one of them worship cult?? Do you believe that Jesus is Lucifer?? Do you believe that Satan currently is An Angel?? Do you believe Satan admire gays, prostitutes, disobedinces, bad things???

Therefore, Here I really hate to say that you don't know what heck God nor satan mean to you, Because you did not read scripture deeply. And you dont know me very well.... I aint blame you did not read scripture everyday and dont accurse you fingerpoint at me wrong person whom your being judge to...