TXgolfer

Yes I am familiar with them

Paul Krugman: Fake Alien Invasion Would End Economic Slump (VIDEO)

Oooh HuffPo

Of course it was just an example. But he believes the theory. I'm not a big Keynes fan.

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Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:21


Sometimes at night, I see their faces. I feel the traces they've left on my soul

Deafness

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Reba

I've seen videos of the protesters attacking first, such as at the Smithsonian.

I guess it depends on which videos one sees.

Who provoked the protesters to urinate in the streets, defecate on cop cars, and vandalize the cars with paint?

DeafCaroline

There will always be some that are less well mannered than others. The way Reba describes it, one would think the entire movement is doing that of which I highly highly doubt.

As for the Smithsonian, the protestors got pepper-sprayed first before they clashed with the security guards.

If one rather focuses on a couple of people shitting or a clash between protesters and pepper-spraying policeforce than the bigger issue here, which is the corruption of Wall Street which led to millions of people losing their homes and jobs and the failure of the government to uphold laws, then that's rather pitiful.

deafskeptic

Agreed.

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sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

The ill-mannered protesters complaint is a strawman argument. An attempt to derail discussions of the real issues.

The alleged bra burning by feminists never happened. It was a story made up to ridicule and trivialize women. When a person's position is morally indefensible, he resorts to ridicule and contempt.

Those of you who are emotional about the protesters have not addressed the issues. Other people's emotions are not going to sway me. A well-reasoned analysis based on facts will.

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sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Double post. Sorry!

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Reba

Bloomberg Tells Wall Street Protesters to Clear Out for Cleanup
October 12, 2011 9:37pm | By Julie Shapiro, DNAinfo Reporter/Producer

LOWER MANHATTAN — Mayor Bloomberg paid a surprise visit to Occupy Wall Street's Lower Manhattan encampment Wednesday night, personally telling the protesters that they will have to temporarily clear out of the deteriorating plaza so it can be cleaned on Friday.

Complaints about cleanliness at Occupy Wall Street's base at Zuccotti Park have reached a fever pitch, even as the protesters said they were redoubling their efforts to keep the area clean.

“The mayor is a strong believer in the First Amendment and believes that the protesters have a right to continue to protest," Deputy Mayor Cas Holloway said in a statement on Wednesday, shortly after Bloomberg toured the site — his first visit.

"At the same time, the last three weeks have created unsanitary conditions and considerable wear and tear on the park."

Holloway said that Brookfield — which owns the plaza, but must keep it open to the public 24-hours-a-day under an agreement with the city, creating a complicated legal situation — will be doing the cleaning in stages.

"The protesters will be able to return to the areas that have been cleaned, provided they abide by the rules that Brookfield has established for the park,” he said.

Bloomberg visited Zuccotti Park around 6:45 p.m. Wednesday and spent roughly 15 minutes touring the area, speaking with numerous people, his spokesman said. While some weren't receptive, other thanked him for coming and even offered him food.

"Crowd following Bloomberg briefly chants, "You are the 1%," tweeted Ryan Devereaux, of Democracy Now!

"And as quick as he came, the mayor is gone. Large, gathering crowd seems to feel their concerns weren't adaquately communicated."

Still others felt that the mayor, who has been a vocal critic of the protesters, showed courage by coming to Zuccotti Park.

"Organizer says he feels Bloomberg's visit, "showed a lot of courage...we have to credit him a tiny bit," tweeted Devereaux.

Brookfield wrote a letter to Police Commissioner Ray Kelly on Tuesday saying the park's conditions "have deteriorated to unsanitary and unsafe levels" with the space having no toilets and overflowing trash bins attracting rodents.

"We have received hundreds of phone calls and emails from concerned citizens and office workers in the neighborhood," the letter stated.

"Complaints range from outrage over numerous laws being broken including but not limited to lewdness, groping, drinking and drug use, to the lack of safe access to and usage of the park, to ongoing noise at all hours, to unsanitary conditions and to offensive odors."

One woman, according to Brookfield, said she was verbally abused in front of her 5-year-old child and claimed that a package was stolen from her as she tried to cross the park.

Steven Abramson, 63, who lives on Liberty Street across from Zuccotti Park, said he and his neighbors were disgusted by the constant stench from protesters urinating in and around the park.

"It's really getting to be pretty gruesome," said Abramson, who moved to Liberty Street shortly before 9/11.

"We've been through enough down here. It's like another insult is getting dumped on top of our heads."

While Occupy Wall Street has a sanitation team that sweeps trash and empties garbage cans daily, it's hard for the protesters to stay on top of the floods of people passing through the park each day, not to mention the hundreds sleeping there each night. The group recently voted to get storage bins to hold their sleeping bags and other items.

Damien Guarniere, 41, a Harlem resident who was scrubbing the stone plaza with a broom and some water Wednesday afternoon, said he sometimes feels like he's fighting a losing battle.

"Unfortunately, I don't think the parents ever taught their kids to clean," Guarniere said of the younger protesters.

"The job ain't always fun, but it needs to be done. I just came over and started taking the initiative. I'm trying to help the movement succeed."

Amid the tarps, sleeping bags and scattered sweatshirts and shoes heaped in piles at Zuccotti Park, it was easy to find a brown-coated banana peel, leaves of wilting lettuce and what looked like the remnants of a bologna sandwich. The smell of fried food filled the air, along with the subtler odors of marijuana smoke and unwashed bodies.

The Sanitation Department said on Tuesday it had not received a single complaint through 311.

Abramson said he focused his 311 complaints on noise from the protesters' drumming and chanting, but he has been mentioning sanitation concerns as well.

On Wednesday afternoon, a 19-year-old unemployed man who goes by "Pockets," swept up candy wrappers and cigarette butts along Liberty Street. He said it was important to keep the park clean so the city doesn't use health concerns as a reason to shut the protest down. But he admitted that he has urinated in the street late at night, because he has no other option.

"We don't want people to get sick," Pockets said. "The rain will wash some of the crap away."

Nearby, Tracy Postert, 41, an Upper West Side resident who is unemployed but previously taught biology, crouched on her hands and knees scrubbing the plaza with detergent.

"For what it is, it's incredibly clean," Postert said of the protest's base camp.

She said she was impressed by the level of responsibility the protesters are taking for their surroundings.

The cleanliness of Zuccotti Park will likely be an ongoing issue, as Bloomberg has repeatedly said he will not remove the protesters from the park.

Earlier Wednesday, the mayor told reporters he did not even know if it would be legally possible to get rid of the protesters, because Zuccotti Park is subject to complicated rules as a privately owned public space.

The city's position is infuriating Downtown residents who say their lives have been disrupted by the protests.

Ro Sheffe, a Liberty Street resident who also chairs Community Board 1's Financial District Committee, said he receives dozens of e-mails a day from his angry neighbors, who have a range of quality-of-life concerns, including sanitation issues.

"We have a middle-class residential neighborhood that is under siege," Sheffe said. "The mayor is completely ignoring his own constituents."

Sheffe said he and others are growing especially frustrated by the lack of enforcement of basic public health laws.

"If I were defecating in the street and smoking marijuana, I would be arrested immediately," Sheffe said. "I don't understand why these people are not."

Additional Reporting by Jill Colvin

Read more: Bloomberg Tells Wall Street Protesters to Clear Out for Cleanup - DNAinfo.com


No. The clash happened first, then the pepper spray:

"As many as 200 people attempted to enter the museum through doors facing the National Mall, said St. Thomas, while others gathered at the museum’s Independence Avenue entrance. The demonstrators carried large signs and other items not allowed inside the museum, she said.

When a security guard told them they could not enter, demonstrators pushed the guard outside and up against a wall, St. Thomas said. Another guard approached and pepper-sprayed one protester before D.C. police and U.S. Park Police were called, she said, and one person was arrested...."
Air and Space Museum closes after guards clash with protesters - Post Now - The Washington Post

The demonstrators made the first move. How else would you prefer the outnumbered museum guards disperse an unruly mob?

If one rather focuses on a couple of people shitting or a clash between protesters and pepper-spraying policeforce than the bigger issue here, which is the corruption of Wall Street which led to millions of people losing their homes and jobs and the failure of the government to uphold laws, then that's rather pitiful.[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the posts about the conduct of the police with the protesters. Someone else brought it up.

Reba

If the real issue is enforcing the banking laws, I'm all for that.

How does people squatting in parks days on end bring that about?

saywhatkid

It got us talking about it more....

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sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Changing institutions is never easy.

The banks are currently unregulated and Congress refuses to regulate them. Perhaps we cannot accomplish anything until there is campaign financing and lobbying reform. Neither you nor I can afford to buy our own politician. Changing the status if a corporation as a "person" would be a good place to start. The change is going to have to be a process. There is no easy fix. People must keep pressure on politicians and leaders if any progress is made.

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saywhatkid

To those that see only those "awful protesters pooping on car hoods"...a history lesson.

If you are around 50+ years old, you can probably recall the days of Selma and Montgomery in the 1960's, when those terrible "Negroes" were blocking traffic and chanting "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" while being sprayed by firehoses and bitten by police dogs, with the accompanying rhythm of batons slapping on their backs and heads. What was accomplished by this? They got our attention, and created an atmosphere where real dialogue began that produced change. Does anyone regret that those changes began?

I hope not.

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deafskeptic

Hmm, I didn't know that about the bra burning part. As for me, I'm the same way as you when it comes to well reasoned analysis based on fast.

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Reba

Fortunately for me, Sen. Kim DeMint and Rep. Tim Scott are on the same page as I am. Sen. Lindsey Graham is off and on.

deafskeptic

This is exactly what I hope for regarding the occupy wall street. The issues have been ignored too long.

I can think of a few people who wish it was still 1850s -including members of my own family- but on the whole I would hope the majority of people prefer the 2010s to the 1950s..

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Reba

I'm 60 years old, and I remember the days of marches for civil rights. The marchers were neatly dressed and courteous, they didn't shout profanities or racial slurs, they didn't vandalize, they didn't urinate or defecate in public, and they always met violence with non-violence. They prayed and sung hymns.

They were able to get our attention and respect by the way they protested with dignity and courage.

sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

People don't give up power and privilege easily. That was true during the Civil Rights movement and it's true today. Most people want peaceful change. The success of that depends on the response of those with power.
I'm surprised that kettling and damaging sound has been used in the U.S. It indicates that authorities are afraid. A politician called for the use of Homeland Security against protesters and that whole idea is strange to me.

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deafskeptic

Unfortunately, it won't be the first time that the powers that be has called in the military or the cops. If I recall correctly, MLK was considered a commie because of his leadership in the civil rights movement.

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deafskeptic

I hope it wont' come to that this time around and that the idea of calling in homeland security is just talk. We will see.

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Beowulf

Who paid for cleaning their blood from the streets?

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sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Reba, if you're happy with the status quo, you can go about your business and ignore the protesters. If you feel the need to ridicule and discredit them, it says more about you than them. Last time I checked, Americans had the right to free speech and freedom of assembly.

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saywhatkid

I don't recall them being portrayed as courteous or well-dressed. I recall them being portrayed as protesters. The media was a lot different then. We only had 3 choices for TV news. You got Cronkite, Huntley/Brinkley, or Reasoner/Jennings. There was no MSNBC, FoxNews, CNN, etc. The protest portrayals changed as the years went by.

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deafskeptic

Lmao!

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Beowulf

There is a small group of protesters here in town who speak against the war, and they occupy an area at a busy intersection. In the past few days, though, the group has grown larger, and I see passersby chatting with them. I am proud of our police who have left them alone, and I hope it stays that way. I can understand if the group grows so large that they interfere with the daily traffic and the cops step in. I sure am glad I am not a cop.

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sallylou

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Police deal with so much "domestic" violence, too. That alone is difficult. Cutbacks are affecting that. In Kansas, the legislature repealed "domestic" violence laws that made it a misdemeanor. I kid you not. It's so much more efficient to wait for the murders.

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Tousi

And you don't accord Reba that very same right? Hmmmm, okayyyyyyyy.

Daredevel7

Personally, I'm just interested to see where this goes. But they better shape up their goals fast. Complaining isn't enough.

I do hope it's for the overall good.

Frankly, I think it's a bit unfair to use one bad apple (Mr. Pooper) to represent the whole group.

Beowulf

Unfair? I thought it hilarious.

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Reba

Somehow you keep overlooking the several times that I've posted I'm all for enforcing the banking laws. I don't support banking hanky panky, under the table deals, unethical business practices, cheating or lying by executives, etc.

For the protestors who are sincere and peaceable in the movement, that's fine. For those hangers-on who join movements either out of ignorance (let's party and make a mess) or have ulterior motives (for anything violent or subserive), I don't have any reason to avoid discrediting.

Yes, Americans have the right to free speech and assembly. Have I posted anything that even implies they should be prohibited from speaking or assembling? Doesn't free speech include the right to criticize the occupiers?

They don't have the right to destroy public or private property, or intimidate residents.

Well, so far, what have been the results of these occupations? What changes have they wrought?

saywhatkid

The only change so far has been to put the issue on the front page of the news, in large print.

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Reba

I saw the same TV news that you did. I saw the civil rights marchers portrayed as courageous and dignified, and the local Southern police and sheriffs were portrayed as ignorant, mean-spirited, and violent.

Most of the men marching wore suits and fedoras, and the women wore dresses or suits. Poor rural men wore farmer overalls but they were neat. There was no shouting or foul language used by them.