Declaration of Occupy Wall Street - Page 13

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

If they allowed Glann Beck to have his sic 'em party on the National Mall, anything goes.

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretblend

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't be sure of their authenticity" --Abe Lincoln

That caught my attention, Is that the same Abe Lincoln that was the president during the civil war? If so, that's a very interesting quote since internet as I know it was started in another century.

. I didn't know the internet was invented waaay back in the 1800s.

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I can't help but notice that the media single out the morons in the crowd and make it seem they are all that way, so the change will have to come in spite of the media. I didn't stop to talk to the elderly protesters at the Post Office, and wish I did. I know they weren't morons. Sad.

I know.

darkdog · 10-16-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

It would seem unpatriotic to allow only some people a right to free speech and assembly.

Might as give our country back to England and subject ourselves to colonial era English common law anti sedation libel laws again. Guess the Tories won after all.

Here's what she said.

Quote:

"I support the message to the establishment, whether it's Wall Street or the political establishment and the rest, that change has to happen," said Pelosi in an exclusive interview with ABC News "This Week" anchor Christiane Amanpour. "We cannot continue in a way this is not relevant to their lives."

That goes beyond just saying they have a right to free speech and assembly. And who on Earth is saying they don't have a right to free speech and assembly? I would say they don't have a right to block bridges, dirty up a privately owned park, and then refuse to leave when the owners want to clean it up. However, they certainly have a right to their free speech and I hope they continue.

darkdog · 10-16-2011, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

If they allowed Glann Beck to have his sic 'em party on the National Mall, anything goes.

Not anything goes. Did they provoke the police, block traffic, have sex in public, bang drums for weeks on end, or abuse the restrooms of nearby businesses? In fact, did they do anything objectionable?

By the way, I'm sensitive to the argument that a whole movement should not be judged based on the idiotic behavior of a few. They should be judged based on behavior that is common to the movement. Even if I agreed with the message in its entirety (I agree with parts), I would distance myself from this movement. To embrace it would mean a lot of egg on my face.

**saywhatkid** · 10-16-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Not anything goes. Did they provoke the police, block traffic, have sex in public, bang drums for weeks on end, or abuse the restrooms of nearby businesses? In fact, did they do anything objectionable?

By the way, I'm sensitive to the argument that a whole movement should not be judged based on the idiotic behavior of a few. They should be judged based on behavior that is common to the movement. Even if I agreed with the message in its entirety (I agree with parts), I would distance myself from this movement. To embrace it would mean a lot of egg on my face.

Thing is, a lot of these "anti-establishment" protests attract idiots of the ilk described. They just want to protest anything against the establishment, regardless of the actual reason. The Tea Party appeals to people that want taxes reduced and services cut. How many young people would feel directly benefitting of such results? How many older people with well-paid careers would support increased taxes and services?

Anyhow, the protest continues. Sadly, the people crapping on cars are making the most noise, the biggest stink, if you will, at least to the opposition. Same as calling the Tea Party "Tea Baggers", the message gets overlooked in favor of critiqueing the messengers.

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Thing is, a lot of these "anti-establishment" protests attract idiots of the ilk described. They just want to protest anything against the establishment, regardless of the actual reason. The Tea Party appeals to people that want taxes reduced and services cut. How many young people would feel directly benefitting of such results? How many older people with well-paid careers would support increased taxes and services?

Anyhow, the protest continues. Sadly, the people crapping on cars are making the most noise, the biggest stink, if you will, at least to the opposition. Same as calling the Tea Party "Tea Baggers", the message gets overlooked in favor of critiqueing the messengers.

Yet those who don't want change will want to point out those crapping on the cars and ignore the rest who are protesting the corrupt practice and even illegal actions of banks in order to discredit the very real reforms that need to be done.

I wasn't aware that crapping on cars is a much more egregious crime than defrauding people out of homes in questionable foreclosures, or their life savings. I think some have their priorities screwed up.

DeafCaroline · 10-16-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Thing is, a lot of these "anti-establishment" protests attract idiots of the ilk described. They just want to protest anything against the establishment, regardless of the actual reason. The Tea Party appeals to people that want taxes reduced and services cut. How many young people would feel directly benefitting of such results? How many older people with well-paid careers would support increased taxes and services?

Anyhow, the protest continues. Sadly, the people crapping on cars are making the most noise, the biggest stink, if you will, at least to the opposition. Same as calling the Tea Party "Tea Baggers", the message gets overlooked in favor of critiqueing the messengers.

And no one talks about the dirty dealings of Wall Street bankers that brought down the American economy and caused millions to lose homes and jobs - just that one single freak shitting on a cop car. It's pathetic.

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

And no one talks about the dirty dealings of Wall Street bankers that brought down the American economy and caused millions to lose homes and jobs - just that one single freak shitting on a cop car. It's pathetic.

Exactly.

darkdog · 10-16-2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Thing is, a lot of these "anti-establishment" protests attract idiots of the ilk described. They just want to protest anything against the establishment, regardless of the actual reason. The Tea Party appeals to people that want taxes reduced and services cut. How many young people would feel directly benefitting of such results? How many older people with well-paid careers would support increased taxes and services?

Most of those older people with well-paid careers did not get there because of some government program, and for the few that did, it's usually from something like the GI bill, which is compensation for their own military service). As a young Tea Partier myself, I would say that I'm not interested in a lot of government services. Most of the government services I want- roads, police, schools, sanitation- are local. All I want from the federal government is what they're constitutionally obligated to do. I think federal programs to solve social problems either backfire and/or create other problems that are worse than the original problem. The same can be said when state governments engage in social activism, but at least the damage there is localized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Anyhow, the protest continues. Sadly, the people crapping on cars are making the most noise, the biggest stink, if you will, at least to the opposition. Same as calling the Tea Party "Tea Baggers", the message gets overlooked in favor of critiqueing the messengers.

Note that I didn't mention the car crapper. I'm talking about behavior that is mainstream to this group and I've been careful to make this distinction. I'm talking about stuff like this:

Quote:

Residents, too, say they are losing patience.

Mothers have grown weary of navigating strollers through the maze of barricades that have sprouted along the streets. Toddlers have been roused from sleep just after bedtime by chanting and pounding drums.

Heather Amato, 35, a psychologist who lives near the protest area, said she felt disturbed by some of the conduct of the protesters. She said she had to shield her toddler from the sight of women at the park dancing topless. “It’s been three weeks now,” Ms. Amato said. “Enough is enough.”

...

Several businesses said they had no choice but to respond to the influx of protesters by closing bathrooms.

Mike Keane, who owns O’Hara’s Restaurant and Pub, said that the theft of soap and toilet paper had soared and that one protester had used the bathroom but had failed to properly use the toilet. Both Ms. Tzortzatos, owner of the Panini and Company Cafe, and Mr. Keane said the protesters rarely bought anything, yet hurled curses when they were told that only paying customers could use their bathrooms.

Steve Zamfotis, manager of another nearby store, Steve’s Pizza, said: “They are pests. They go to the bathroom and don’t even buy a cup of coffee.”

Mr. Zamfotis closed his bathroom after it repeatedly flooded from protesters’ bathing there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/ny...pagewanted=all

How pointing this out compares to people using the perjorative "Tea bagger" is beyond me.

darkdog · 10-16-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Yet those who don't want change will want to point out those crapping on the cars and ignore the rest who are protesting the corrupt practice and even illegal actions of banks in order to discredit the very real reforms that need to be done.

I wasn't aware that crapping on cars is a much more egregious crime than defrauding people out of homes in questionable foreclosures, or their life savings. I think some have their priorities screwed up.

Here's why I disagree with the protesters' solution even while I agree with them on the problem of crony capitalism. It was government that pressured banks into lowering lending standards. It was government that propped up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and encouraged them to buy risky mortgages. It was politicians like Barney Frank and Kit Bond who pushed against OFHEO for having the gall to apply traditional accounting rules to Fannie and Freddie. All this to solve the "problem" of low home ownership and push it up from 65% to 69% before the bubble burst. For all the screw-ups the banks have done, government activism is the root cause of the pain we're in. The problems the economic elites have caused is nothing compared to the problems the political elites have created.

DeafCaroline · 10-16-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Here's why I disagree with the protesters' solution even while I agree with them on the problem of crony capitalism. It was government that pressured banks into lowering lending standards. It was government that propped up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and encouraged them to buy risky mortgages. It was politicians like Barney Frank and Kit Bond who pushed against OFHEO for having the gall to apply traditional accounting rules to Fannie and Freddie. All this to solve the "problem" of low home ownership and push it up from 65% to 69% before the bubble burst. For all the screw-ups the banks have done, government activism is the root cause of the pain we're in. The problems the economic elites have caused is nothing compared to the problems the political elites have created.

I agree. There does need to be fundamental changes in government laws regarding banking.

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Here's why I disagree with the protesters' solution even while I agree with them on the problem of crony capitalism. It was government that pressured banks into lowering lending standards. It was government that propped up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and encouraged them to buy risky mortgages. It was politicians like Barney Frank and Kit Bond who pushed against OFHEO for having the gall to apply traditional accounting rules to Fannie and Freddie. All this to solve the "problem" of low home ownership and push it up from 65% to 69% before the bubble burst. For all the screw-ups the banks have done, government activism is the root cause of the pain we're in. The problems the economic elites have caused is nothing compared to the problems the political elites have created.

Just out of curiosity, who bought the politicans?

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

I agree. There does need to be fundamental changes in government laws regarding banking.

I agree that fundmental changes need to be made in the laws and though I am reluctant to admit it, it will have to government regulation.

DeafCaroline · 10-16-2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I agree that fundmental changes need to be made in the laws and though I am reluctant to admit it, it will have to government regulation.

Not as bad as it sounds. You guys DID have government regulation - the Glass-Steagall act and with this regulation, you had zero financial crises in 45 years. It was only after the first repeal of the act that Wall Street started having major problems.

We're far more conservative and regulated in Canada - and because of this, we were fortunately protected by the market collapse not only in America but also Europe. While millions lost their homes, our real estate market not only stayed steady but continued to be a seller's market. AND our overall taxes are the lowest they have been in 50 years. We are the leading country, economically speaking, of the G7 after the 2008 crisis.

Not too shabby for a left-leaning government-regulated welfare nation, eh?

**deafskeptic** · 10-16-2011, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

Not as bad as it sounds. You guys DID have government regulation - the Glass-Steagall act and with this regulation, you had zero financial crises in 45 years. It was only after the first repeal of the act that Wall Street started having major problems.

We're far more conservative and regulated in Canada - and because of this, we were fortunately protected by the market collapse not only in America but also Europe. While millions lost their homes, our real estate market not only stayed steady but continued to be a seller's market. AND our overall taxes are the lowest they have been in 50 years. We are the leading country, economically speaking, of the G7 after the 2008 crisis.

Not too shabby for a left-leaning government-regulated welfare nation, eh?

Excellent point there. I guess the Glass-Stegall act will have to be reinstated.

**saywhatkid** · 10-16-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Most of those older people with well-paid careers did not get there because of some government program, and for the few that did, it's usually from something like the GI bill, which is compensation for their own military service). As a young Tea Partier myself, I would say that I'm not interested in a lot of government services. Most of the government services I want- roads, police, schools, sanitation- are local. All I want from the federal government is what they're constitutionally obligated to do. I think federal programs to solve social problems either backfire and/or create other problems that are worse than the original problem. The same can be said when state governments engage in social activism, but at least the damage there is localized.
So we change gears now; what about the folks that have been subsidizing this free money for 35 years, only to have things like Medicare and SS reduced or removed right about the time they qualify?

Note that I didn't mention the car crapper. I'm talking about behavior that is mainstream to this group and I've been careful to make this distinction. I'm talking about stuff like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/ny...pagewanted=all

No need for you to mention the car crappers; it has been done to severe redundancy by others. The neighbors are somewhat typical of the NIMBY crowd. No shock they miss the days of walking down the street without these protesters.

How pointing this out compares to people using the perjorative "Tea bagger" is beyond me.

Not criticizing the Tea Party at all. Just saying there are bad apples all over this thing, and they are getting far too much airtime. Take a look at the guy faking injury to get attention in the video posted throughout this thread. I am trying to say that a lot of the opposition to this protest seems to center around the abhorant behavior of a few. Better to point out what awful people are involved in this protest than discuss the core reasons these people are camping out in downtown NYC. Can you even begin to imagine what that would be like; to camp/eat/sleep in this location?

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretblend

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't be sure of their authenticity" --Abe Lincoln

That caught my attention, Is that the same Abe Lincoln that was the president during the civil war? If so, that's a very interesting quote since internet as I know it was started in another century.

It's ironic humor. Obviously the quote is not authentic.

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

Not as bad as it sounds. You guys DID have government regulation - the Glass-Steagall act and with this regulation, you had zero financial crises in 45 years. It was only after the first repeal of the act that Wall Street started having major problems.

We're far more conservative and regulated in Canada - and because of this, we were fortunately protected by the market collapse not only in America but also Europe. While millions lost their homes, our real estate market not only stayed steady but continued to be a seller's market. AND our overall taxes are the lowest they have been in 50 years. We are the leading country, economically speaking, of the G7 after the 2008 crisis.

Not too shabby for a left-leaning government-regulated welfare nation, eh?

This coming from someone who thought Glass Steagall was a 1993 act last week, thinks there is no vitrol at MSNBC and sees a baton hit a protester that no one else sees.

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

And no one talks about the dirty dealings of Wall Street bankers that brought down the American economy and caused millions to lose homes and jobs - just that one single freak shitting on a cop car. It's pathetic.

Everyone I have talked to is pretty glad Raj and Madoff are in the can. And people lost their homes because they didn't make payments...

**Beowulf** · 10-16-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

This coming from someone who thought Glass Steagall was a 1993 act last week, thinks there is no vitrol at MSNBC and sees a baton hit a protester that no one else sees.

Spoken by someone who thinks protesters are backed by Iran and Hugo Chavez.

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

. I didn't know the internet was invented waaay back in the 1800s.

exactly

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Spoken by someone who thinks protesters are backed by Iran and Hugo Chavez.

"Endorse" is not the same as "back"

Hugo Chavez Endorses #OccupyWallStreet | Mother Jones

**Beowulf** · 10-16-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

"Endorse" is not the same as "back"

Hugo Chavez Endorses #OccupyWallStreet | Mother Jones

Save your breath. We know your intent.

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Save your breath. We know your intent.

I don't think you do...

**Beowulf** · 10-16-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I don't think you do...

Insulting our intelligence gets you points in some quarters, I suppose.

**TXgolfer** · 10-16-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Insulting our intelligence gets you points in some quarters, I suppose.

Not what I meant. But then you knew that.

**Reba** · 10-16-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Not anything goes. Did they provoke the police, block traffic, have sex in public, bang drums for weeks on end, or abuse the restrooms of nearby businesses? In fact, did they do anything objectionable?

By the way, I'm sensitive to the argument that a whole movement should not be judged based on the idiotic behavior of a few. They should be judged based on behavior that is common to the movement. Even if I agreed with the message in its entirety (I agree with parts), I would distance myself from this movement. To embrace it would mean a lot of egg on my face.

We should be grateful that they aren't rioting like the ones in Europe.

DeafCaroline · 10-16-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Everyone I have talked to is pretty glad Raj and Madoff are in the can. And people lost their homes because they didn't make payments...

and why suddenly out of the blue could millions not make their payments? they were set up to fail.

It's very different in Canada - primarily because bankers use their own money to make loans so they are far more conservative and not very keen on high risk lending.

Yes, you're right. Homes got foreclosed because people couldn't pay. But then again, bankers knew this already even while doling out the loans.

DeafCaroline · 10-16-2011, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

We should be grateful that they aren't rioting like the ones in Europe.

I'm grateful our "occupy wall street" is not riotous either. While driving to my son's place for our weekly visit, traffic was a bit slow because of the demonstration but it was very peaceful, calm and orderly. Cops were everywhere, they were helping out with traffic and getting crowds of people across the streets safely. Quite civillized.

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