French burqa ban goes into force on monday - Page 8

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Euthanasia is illegal in the US.

Death with Dignity. it's legal.

TheOracle · 04-10-2011, 04:54 AM

The American Constitution protects the right of women to wear a hijab in public. Hallelujah.

TheOracle · 04-10-2011, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Death with Dignity. it's legal.

That's not euthanasia. Physician assisted suicide is not = me killing a sick parent.

god damn it, jiro, i'm trying to sleep!

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

The American Constitution protects the right of women to wear a hijab in public. Hallelujah.

I wonder about burqa

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

That's not euthanasia. Physician assisted suicide is not = me killing a sick parent.

god damn it, jiro, i'm trying to sleep!

precisely why it's done by doctor and there's procedure.... same thing in here - you let the dog go in peace with dignity by having it done by vet. You don't just shoot'em like poor Ole' Yeller.

so go to sleep. I'm trying to watch Coffee Prince

TheOracle · 04-10-2011, 05:43 AM

A dog is not a human.

flip · 04-10-2011, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

I'll remember this in the next deaf ed debate.

It's just *so* easy to pack up and move to another country. Citizenship isn't worth much nowadays, huh?

Good night.

The average american isn't capable of moving to Sweden or Finland legally anyway. Free immigration ended in the 1960s most places.

**Reba** · 04-10-2011, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Nuns

Yes ..... nuns.

What order is that? Which country? I notice that they also wear red trousers underneath. Is it an Asian order? Can you please identify this picture for us?

TheOracle · 04-10-2011, 07:56 AM

TheOracle · 04-10-2011, 08:00 AM

Reba, those appear to be Saudi Arabian women (possibly? according to Google images?) but he was right about Bere nuns and face coverings.

webexplorer · 04-10-2011, 08:52 AM

Well, I admit it... I took a picture of my family. Here is a picture of my sister and mother. Wait a minute, I am not sure that on the left woman could be my mother. Scratching my head...

Note: Actually, I didn't take this picture.

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

correction..... French is banning burqa... not hijab.

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

Well, I admit it... I took a picture of my family. Here is a picture of my sister and mother. Wait a minute, I am not sure that on the left woman could be my mother. Scratching my head...

Note: Actually, I didn't take this picture.

my wife has a distinctive smell.

posts from hell · 04-10-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

my wife has a distinctive smell.

Only after I'm done with her.

Aleser · 04-10-2011, 01:41 PM

First, a "burqa" is a long overgarment which covers the eyes with a mesh and runs down the body, commonly seen in Afghanistan.

A niqab is the covering much more commonly seen outside of that country, especially among Saudi women etc. It is merely a bit of fabric that covers the lower face: sometimes it also has a strap to cover the forehead, or a thin flip-over veil to cover the eyes.

--

I don't think many of the commenters here really understand the level of racism and anti-immigrant action that is pervasive in French culture. I don't think they understand that France shoves these Arab and Asian immigrants into the corners of society and ghettos, and then further marginalizes them by prohibiting them from dressing or worshiping as they please in public, despite not harming anyone with how they dress or worship. There is no "public safety" issue in banning a jewish boy from wearing a kippah in his classroom, and indeed he is religiously obligated to do so, and France did it anyways.

This ban will accomplish nothing except shaming women who voluntarily wear the niqab into staying at home for fear of the police. This law sanctions, if that woman dares venture out of her home dressed in clothing she perceives as decent and modest, arresting and harassing her with male police for "the sake of her equality". This law sanctions, even if they were in no way involved in a woman's choice to wear the niqab (indeed, many young girls wearing it today do so despite the protests of their less-conservative parents), arresting and imprisoning her father or uncle or grandfather on nothing more than the mere suspicion of "coercion".

This is not France moving in the right direction. If France were actually seeking to de-marginalize immigrant women, and give them the opportunity to -choose- to participate in a gender equal society, they'd be working on combating racism and helping immigrants get good work and get out of the ghettos.

Instead they're ordering male cops to arrest women for what they wear. Doesn't sound like "combating oppression" to me, does sound like France further sanctioning racism.

Steinhauer · 04-10-2011, 02:00 PM

Thank you Aleser.

**Reba** · 04-10-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Reba, those appear to be Saudi Arabian women (possibly? according to Google images?) but he was right about Bere nuns and face coverings.

Are the Bere nuns currently out in public in large numbers with their veils covering their faces? If so, where?

Off topic--when I did a search for the Bere nuns, the search engine wanted to change my request to "beer nuts."

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Are the Bere nuns currently out in public in large numbers with their veils covering their faces? If so, where?

Off topic--when I did a search for the Bere nuns, the search engine wanted to change my request to "beer nuts."

same here

Steinhauer · 04-10-2011, 02:21 PM

must not have been the same search engine I used

Veiled nuns - a set on Flickr

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

must not have been the same search engine I used

Veiled nuns - a set on Flickr

interesting

Quote:

Before the Vatican II Council the trademark of Catholic nuns used to be their habit, consisting of flowing robes and veils that covered the entire body, leaving only the face and hands visible.

But the design of the habits of the many orders of nuns has varied over the ages. During various times in history it has been practices among some orders to have their nuns to also veil their faces. Today this tradition is very uncommon and only a few orders mandates this practice.

Steinhauer · 04-10-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

interesting

I hate to be the one to say I told you so.

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I hate to be the one to say I told you so.

told me what?

Steinhauer · 04-10-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Before the Vatican II Council the trademark of Catholic nuns used to be their habit, consisting of flowing robes and veils that covered the entire body, leaving only the face and hands visible.

But the design of the habits of the many orders of nuns has varied over the ages. During various times in history it has been practices among some orders to have their nuns to also veil their faces. Today this tradition is very uncommon and only a few orders mandates this practice.

Only a few orders (Bere Nuns, Albanian Nuns and a few orders of Eastern Orthodox Nuns) cover their faces.

I am sure there are other orders. Point is, they are not welcome in France. Or are they?

So far, we have a list of persona non grata in France.

- ninjas
- MUSLIM WOMEN
- Batman
- some rare order of nuns

**Reba** · 04-10-2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Veils were worn quite often by women in the US half a century ago. They covered the face.

They were "fashionable". Lots of black and white movies show women wearing veils.

But when requested to remove a veil for identification purposes, did they comply?

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Only a few orders (Bere Nuns, Albanian Nuns and a few orders of Eastern Orthodox Nuns) cover their faces.

as in.... rare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I am sure there are other orders. Point is, they are not welcome in France. Or are they?

So far, we have a list of persona non grata in France.

- ninjas
- MUSLIM WOMEN
- Batman
- some rare order of nuns

again - why would you ask that kind of question when you know an obvious answer? plus - I answered this question more than once already. I guess I'll have to answer it again.

French law is banning any kind of full-faced covering. is there anything you don't understand from that simple sentence?

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 02:53 PM

Steinhauer - let me ask you this... would you agree to the fact that we should bend our Constitution & laws to accommodate a certain ethnic/religious group?

**Reba** · 04-10-2011, 02:55 PM

Would anyone have a problem if the law was applied across the board to anyone whose face was covered by anything? That is, when stopped by an officer of the law, and requested to show one's face, that included people wearing motorcycle helmets with mirrored face shields, face veils, dust masks, bandanas, rubber masks, etc.?

Steinhauer · 04-10-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Steinhauer - let me ask you this... would you agree to the fact that we should bend our Constitution & laws to accommodate a certain ethnic/religious group?

Our Constitution allows freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. It is not allowing freedom of religion only in places of worship - it specifically states that the Government cannot interfere, or respect an establishment of religion (in other words, govern via religion).

What France is doing is attempting to interfere with an establishment of religion.

Who else wears full faced veils? I know spiderman does. Is he from France? I have been pulled over while riding and wearing a full face helmet, I was never asked to remove it.

I can understand having to remove hats, etc. for a photo ID - but banning ballcaps everywhere is kind of ridiculous.

Why aren't Muslim men ordered to shave their beards? Is that the next step? Public safety issues?

**Reba** · 04-10-2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

The American Constitution protects the right of women to wear a hijab in public. Hallelujah.

Yes, but if a law officer requests a woman to show her face so he can identify her, that's allowed, right?

**Jiro** · 04-10-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Our Constitution allows freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. It is not allowing freedom of religion only in places of worship - it specifically states that the Government cannot interfere, or respect an establishment of religion (in other words, govern via religion).

What France is doing is attempting to interfere with an establishment of religion.

huh? did you even read my previous post? I'll repost (pay extra attention to first sentence) -

France's burqa ban in effect next month - CNN

Quote:

The French Constitutional Council said the law did not impose disproportionate punishments or prevent the free exercise of religion in a place of worship, finding therefore that "the law conforms to the Constitution."

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

Lawmakers have also cited security reasons for forbidding people from covering their faces in public.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Who else wears full faced veils? I know spiderman does. Is he from France? I have been pulled over while riding and wearing a full face helmet, I was never asked to remove it.

I had to remove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I can understand having to remove hats, etc. for a photo ID - but banning ballcaps everywhere is kind of ridiculous.

they're not banning it "everywhere"... only public place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Why aren't Muslim men ordered to shave their beards? Is that the next step? Public safety issues?

I cannot understand why you're pinning this as Muslim thing. This has nothing to do with Muslim people. Are you equating men with beard as women wearing burqa where you cannot see women's faces?

04-10-2011, 04:54 AM	#212 (permalink)
TheOracle Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Denver Posts: 1,491	The American Constitution protects the right of women to wear a hijab in public. Hallelujah. __________________ In the confusion we stay with each other, happy to be together, speaking without uttering a single word. Question everyone. This is the Internet.

04-10-2011, 05:43 AM	#216 (permalink)
TheOracle Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Denver Posts: 1,491	A dog is not a human. __________________ In the confusion we stay with each other, happy to be together, speaking without uttering a single word. Question everyone. This is the Internet.

04-10-2011, 07:56 AM	#219 (permalink)
TheOracle Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Denver Posts: 1,491	__________________ In the confusion we stay with each other, happy to be together, speaking without uttering a single word. Question everyone. This is the Internet.

04-10-2011, 08:00 AM	#220 (permalink)
TheOracle Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Denver Posts: 1,491	Reba, those appear to be Saudi Arabian women (possibly? according to Google images?) but he was right about Bere nuns and face coverings. __________________ In the confusion we stay with each other, happy to be together, speaking without uttering a single word. Question everyone. This is the Internet.

04-10-2011, 01:41 PM	#225 (permalink)
Aleser Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 965	First, a "burqa" is a long overgarment which covers the eyes with a mesh and runs down the body, commonly seen in Afghanistan. A niqab is the covering much more commonly seen outside of that country, especially among Saudi women etc. It is merely a bit of fabric that covers the lower face: sometimes it also has a strap to cover the forehead, or a thin flip-over veil to cover the eyes. -- I don't think many of the commenters here really understand the level of racism and anti-immigrant action that is pervasive in French culture. I don't think they understand that France shoves these Arab and Asian immigrants into the corners of society and ghettos, and then further marginalizes them by prohibiting them from dressing or worshiping as they please in public, despite not harming anyone with how they dress or worship. There is no "public safety" issue in banning a jewish boy from wearing a kippah in his classroom, and indeed he is religiously obligated to do so, and France did it anyways. This ban will accomplish nothing except shaming women who voluntarily wear the niqab into staying at home for fear of the police. This law sanctions, if that woman dares venture out of her home dressed in clothing she perceives as decent and modest, arresting and harassing her with male police for "the sake of her equality". This law sanctions, even if they were in no way involved in a woman's choice to wear the niqab (indeed, many young girls wearing it today do so despite the protests of their less-conservative parents), arresting and imprisoning her father or uncle or grandfather on nothing more than the mere suspicion of "coercion". This is not France moving in the right direction. If France were actually seeking to de-marginalize immigrant women, and give them the opportunity to -choose- to participate in a gender equal society, they'd be working on combating racism and helping immigrants get good work and get out of the ghettos. Instead they're ordering male cops to arrest women for what they wear. Doesn't sound like "combating oppression" to me, does sound like France further sanctioning racism. TheOracle likes this. __________________ "She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Today
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04-10-2011, 08:52 AM	#221 (permalink)
webexplorer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New England Posts: 5,476	Well, I admit it... I took a picture of my family. Here is a picture of my sister and mother. Wait a minute, I am not sure that on the left woman could be my mother. Scratching my head... Note: Actually, I didn't take this picture.

04-10-2011, 02:00 PM	#226 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	Thank you Aleser.

04-10-2011, 02:21 PM	#229 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	must not have been the same search engine I used Veiled nuns - a set on Flickr

04-10-2011, 02:53 PM	#236 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,540	Steinhauer - let me ask you this... would you agree to the fact that we should bend our Constitution & laws to accommodate a certain ethnic/religious group? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

04-10-2011, 02:55 PM	#237 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,180	Would anyone have a problem if the law was applied across the board to anyone whose face was covered by anything? That is, when stopped by an officer of the law, and requested to show one's face, that included people wearing motorcycle helmets with mirrored face shields, face veils, dust masks, bandanas, rubber masks, etc.?

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