Jiro

but.... why would you have a problem? The difference between us and them is that they have their own official languages... we don't.

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Deafness

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flip

Christians in the roman empire paid taxes, but couldn't make sacrifices because it was against the doctrines in NT. Your claims that "Christians are supposed to live under whatever government system is in place in their respective countries." or "When they did have to stand for their beliefs, they accepted the consequences of their actions(I interpret this as refusing to make sacrifices to the emperor)." simply don't fit with history.

I don't know what branch of christianity you belong to(pentecoastal?), and what your views are, but the early church of Rome, which Paulus visited, and perhaps Peter, too, seems to disagree with you. During the presecution of those christians, some christians fled, some died as martyrs, some abandoned christanity to save their lives, and some were lucky and survived. There were disputes over whether those who abandoned christanity should be allowed to return to the church after the end of a persecution. It ended with the church of rome allowing them to return to the church after confessing their sins and that.

Today, the church generally forgive all sins, even very grave ones, and this is because this practice were settled during the aftermath of the roman persecutions of christians.

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flip

I don't have problems with what you are saying, that's basically what we can read in the gospels and acts. It's just some flawed claims that Reba made here I couldn't resist to comment.

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flip

Ok, I'm perhaps a bit brave when I state that christianity wrecked europe, but europe have so far failed to become a melting pot/multicultural, and have issues with tolerance. And europe happens to be a old christian continent. With ethnocentrism, I mean chauvinism.

You are talking about what christianity have done to the US in the past, but this does not necessary mean that it will do the same for the US in the future. Christianity fueled slavery before it fueled the slavery abolistionist movement, so it can go both directions. Some presidents of the US have declared war in the name of God according to various sources, but I agree the US never have gone to war over christianity, though one gets uneasy when americans, especially afte 9/11 expresses this kind of islamophobia.
This is what I'm talking about yes. After all, europe will have to take care of more asylum refugees, that they don't know what to do with, if the US adopts an aggresive foreign politics towards Islam and comforts dictators when they ask for more money to fight "extremist".

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Reba

Yes, they do.

I'm neither Pentecostal nor "pentecoastal" even though I do live on the coast. I'm an independent Baptist.

How so?

So I'm right. They didn't commit terrorist acts or demand that the Roman Empire adopt "Christian" laws or else.

You forgot to add that some Christians went underground with their churches. Those who did survive weren't "lucky" BTW.

Please elaborate on what you mean. Your description above is vague and doesn't make sense.

Churches can't forgive sins. Only Jesus Christ can forgive sins. Individuals can forgive sinners of their actions against them but only Jesus can forgive the eternal penalty of sin.

I'm afraid that you're confused, and you're trying to spread confusion.

Reba

Brave? No. Misinformed? Yes.

Examples, please.

Islamophobia has nothing to do with Christianity. There are people of various religious, atheists and secular humanists who are Islamophobic.

Huh?

flip

Many christians abandoned christianity during the presecutions. After the persecutions ended, they wanted to return to the church. Not everyone agreed that those people should be allowed to return, because their sin were so grave. In rome, they eventually was allowed to return. This had a big impact on how the church later handled sin and the right to be a christian.

The churches have made different doctrines about how sins are forgiven and what sins that can be forgiven.

Could you stay with history and politics, and not your own personal faith, as that kind of religion discussions not is allowed on AD?

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flip

One among many, said by Bush according to an Israeli newspaper:

'God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.'

Atheists tend to fear all religions, not only Islam. In europe, christians have been picking on Islam for 1500 years, with the crusaders as one of the most famous examples of this behavior.

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Reba

The full story:

Even though you didn't cite your source, I will cite mine:

BBC NEWS | Americas | Bush God comments 'not literal'

Atheists would probably disagree with your "fear" statement.

I don't know if it's just your math, or your definition of Europe, or what you mean by picking on that makes that statement confusing. Perhaps you can clarify.

The Crusades weren't conducted by all Christians against Muslims. (I don't want to get too specific because that definitely would become a religions debate if I did.) As you also know, a lot of the conflict was political.

saywhatkid

And then you continue the religious discussion. What's up with that?

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Reba

I don't know what you mean by abandoning Christianity. Once someone is truly born again as a Christian, he or she can't abandon Jesus. If a person isn't truly a Christian, then he or she may abandon the outward practices of a Christian. Or, a real Christian could have a weak faith, and out of fear deny Christ. Maybe that's what you mean?

Neither Rome nor any church decides who is a Christian. However, churches can decide who can join their memberships.

No human or organization has a right to decide who can be a Christian. Jesus invites EVERYONE, and turns away NO ONE.

I guess when you say churches you mean religions and denominations.

Then why did you bring it up???

Daredevel7

Religious discussions are allowed from atheists/non-religious people but not religious people.

That isn't obvious?

saywhatkid

Quite.

I can understand the issues involved with all the different doctrines, but when religious bashing is allowed, it puts me at an uneasy place.

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darkdog

You say melting pot/multicultural as if they're the same thing. They're not- they're opposite concepts. It's an understatement to say that Europe has had issues with tolerance, and certainly at times, religion has played a key role in that, but what about now? The continent's more secular than it has ever been in the past and certainly more so than Christian America, so why the continued trouble with tolerance?

Anything is possible in the future, but if widespread imposition of sharia is low on the list of things I should worry about, then a devolution back to inquisition-style Christianity is way further down that list.

I doubt Christianity really fueled the slave trade. Yes, slave-holders and Southern preachers tried to find justification in the Bible for slavery, but would they have still involved themselves in slavery if they weren't Christian? I think probably so. On the other hand, would the abolition movement have had the success it had were it not for Christianity? I think probably not.

I already listed out the two distortions about Islam I've heard and they are relatively rare. Most people bend over backwards to be accepting and tolerant. Considering we had just suffered the worst attack on our soil in our history in the name of Islam, we have been remarkably restrained in our treatment of Muslims. Retaliatory attacks against Muslims have happened, but they have been rare and we have not been hesitant to punish such crimes.

However, many have talked about the actions and desires of extreme Muslims. It's actually quite difficult to exaggerate on the horrors of extreme Islam because the truth is so horrifying. I mean, we're talking about people who will riot and murder over a cartoon or a book.

You're talking about the foreign policy doctrine of realism- that it's better to support a dictator who at least keeps things stable than to have him overthrown and replaced by thugs who destabilize the region and threatens other countries including our own. Case in point- Iran. What's preferable? Having the shah or the ayatollahs? Such foreign policy doctrines are debatable, but they have nothing to do with settling religious scores (at least on our end). Besides, more secular Europe doesn't exactly have clean hands when it comes to supporting dictators.

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darkdog

That is wrong. Bush did not tell that to an Israeli newspaper. Here's how it went (as I best recall): In a meeting with Arab leaders, Bush apparently said something (we don't know what exactly), and it got translated into Arabic. Then, someone told someone else who wrote down some notes in Arabic. Then, someone translated the notes back into English and told an Israeli newspaper. It's like a game of telephone except with each iteration, it gets translated into another language.

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jillio

True. But which is more beneficial and truly tolerant and accepting? The watering down of all cultures, or preserving the uniqueness of each individual culture. Melting pot is really the most ethnocentric of all....everyone must be the same.

jillio

If they can be "reborn" why can't they "re-cease to exist"? Reborn implies that they did not exist prior to conversion. If they can change their philosophy to include Christian doctrine, they can also change it to exclude religious doctrine at any future date.

flip

I am not "meaning" anything here. If you want to know what "abandoning" means, and how the church in Rome decided who's a heretic and a true beliver, and their view on those who are weak versus those who are strong in their faith, among things, I recommend you to read about the early church, from 70 AD to 400 AD. Sorry I can't give you a better reply, because I am not allowed to make replies on your personal interpretations of the history and faith, as it's not allowed here on AD.

I did bring this up because sharia/muslims(radical, extreme or something) was mentioned as something dangerous in this thread.

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Daredevel7

Is Islam the new Christianity?

Maybe 1000 years from now, Buddhists will try to take over.

flip

Thanks for providing us with more background info about the comments from Bush. As said, just one example of several that one can find by google.

My point with atheists, is that if they have any phobia, it would be a general phobia, not against a specific religion. And I also tried to put a small joke in that sentence, but it seems that you missed both.

Christians in europe and middle east have a long story of attacking Islam, both by the sword and pen, with the first known case by Saint John of Damascus, born in 676 CE, who claimed that a heretic monk inspired the Quran.

Horror stories about Sharia is a part of this tradition.

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flip

The history isn't allways nice with personal faith, and that also goes for belifs among non-religious people. Else, I agree with you that this rule against religous discussions on AD is unfair against religious people.

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saywhatkid

I was here when there was no rule. The problem lies in the different religious doctrines all posting under one roof. Muslims and Christians and Jewish and Buddhists and Hindu and all the others, all hollering that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Add the fact that spiritual faith carries a great deal of emotion. Put all of these things into a test tube and shake. BOOM!

My concerns begin when someone comes along and posts mocking comments about religious people. Those religious people are not allowed to defend their beliefs. If it were possible, I would love to see a religious discussion area here. Not holding my breath though.

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flip

While melting pot and multicultural perhaps are opposites, they can co-exist, like black and white. Sometimes the US reminds more of a salad bowl, ie a mix of melting pot and multiculturalism, hence the "melting pot/multicultural".

If you look behind the european secularism, there still is a lot of religion and culture in play that have evolved for more than a thousands of years. Secularism is describing how the church have gotten a less prominent role in the public, but often fail to detect spirituality and new forms of religions that perhaps can replace the loss of religion in public. Talking about the intolerant culture of europe, feudalism and terrorital wars perhaps have played a role, but, as I said, IF any religion have wrecked europe, it's christianity, not Islam.
I can understand the american reaction to 9/11. That was truly an horrible happening and you have all my condolences. One of the damages assaults like this can do, is to trigger irrational thoughts. It's like someone gets robbed, and develops a fear of strangers. Vague and unclear use of the term "extremists" reminds of this.
Funny how some of those insulting cartoons were published in egpyptian newspapers, without anyone rioting. Those stories have much more in them than you are expressing here.This is what dictators want you to think, that they are the best one to run the country after all, and they all point at Iran to scare you.

Europe is corrupt as hell, yeah. We buy food with guns from african dictators, with the help of a dozen of mafias, and get asylum refugees in return, who we exploit, and then accuse of extremism when they find a purpose with their meaningless life in a local mosque. Europe is great, isn't it?

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flip

Agree totally.

It's a lot of religious discussions on other forums, and people don't die from them, or the BOOMs. Not holding my breath either, but hope the moderators opens up the section.

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saywhatkid

The term "Reborn" refers to a spiritual birth. There are various doctrines that Baptize infants. Problem is, they need to give consent to this. A 3 month old baby cannot consent to anything. That is why people call the awakening of the spiritual side the word "Reborn", because it is done during the adult years.

I think it is hard to change one's mindset after being Reborn. I cannot imagine how someone would do it. Once you have begun to walk in the light, you cannot "unlearn" the Word. I mean, people can forget snippets of things, but not entire philosophies that they have adhered to as a lifestyle. Certainly there are exceptions to this, but it is difficult to imagine, from my perspective, how someone would be Reborn, then "unborn".

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TXgolfer

I agree, I don't believe it is possible to be "unborn" Being Reborn is a spiritual birth as you said....but it is a spiritual relationship that is born. Although one may stray or develop doubt that relationship never ends.

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saywhatkid

I was involved in a debate over infant Baptism, and it became quite heated. One side feels that they need to have this done ASAP, as both a family social event and to "protect" the infant; and the other side says that the baby cannot consent, nor does the baby understand, what the Baptism is for. It was a good read.

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TXgolfer

Yeah I can see how that would get heated. Would be an interesting read though.

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Sometimes at night, I see their faces. I feel the traces they've left on my soul

Banjo

People always get all worked up over if they are superstitious. It's sad, really.

flip

Thank God I'm an atheist!

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