Ah, the USA needs this. - Page 4

**saywhatkid** · 03-04-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so you can't list more examples of Sharia Law?

typical right-wing extremists... getting all hot and angry over something they don't know nor understand

He's waiting until there is another biased news article that discusses it again.

Good job avoiding the obvious trolling efforts. You get the "Leftist Liberal" free pass to all kinds of government cheese.

flip · 03-05-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Never once have I seen a European promote multiculturalism, and any preaching of tolerance is rooted within the horrors of the Holocaust and the fear of a repeat. In fact, many of the countries in Europe are largely homozygous compared to the East and the New World. I am sorry, but this seem to be more of an Asian or Canadian thing to say, not a European thing.

Good observation. Europeans have allways scratched their head when they try to figure out how america so succesfully have becomed the mix of melting pot and multicultural society it's today(or before 9/11).

flip · 03-05-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Sharia law doesn't follow American law, so yes, I would have a problem with that. For example, Sharia law punishes sexual offenses with stoning to death.

Anyone following Sharia law wouldn't be law abiding in America.

Sharia isn't a sole set of existing rules that you can compare with the laws of a specific country.

flip · 03-05-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

I might as well answer your question with the words of David Cameron.

PM’s speech at Munich Security Conference | Number10.gov.uk

In France, it got so bad the government published a list of no go zones that were basically lawless Muslim neighborhoods where even the police were afraid to go.

You have it all wrong. Those politicans are using "multiculturalism" as a negative term. It's a word no one wants to be associated with, and mostly used to descripe opponents in politics. Notice the use of "doctrine" in the speech and what it implies to include that word with multiculturalism.

flip · 03-05-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

The first sentence of the article linked at the start of this thread: "Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told to get out of Australia, again, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks." Kind of makes sense to talk about sharia in this thread, don'cha think?

Did you read the sentence right after the one you highlighted? "Fortunately, most of our Muslims are sane, so the imposition of sharia law isn't any danger now." Yes, I'm not terribly worried about it happening here any time soon, but we should look at Europe as a cautionary tale.

Yes, europe is really a cautionary tale about what can happen if christianity take over. The US were much less christian a couple of centuries ago. Christian thinking have been on the increase for centuries. Now we are seeing the first signs of serious Islamophobia in the US. Good luck, you guys will need it.

**deafskeptic** · 03-05-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

There was no USA the first 100 years they were in America. (You didn't say where "there" was, so I'm assuming you're referring to North America.)

True.

Even after the colonies became America, my ancestors didn't know English till the early1800s. If I'm not mistaken, there prolly still some Mennonite or Amish sects that still don't know much English somewhere in the USA. I didn't feel it necessary to point out this was in the colonial era but per your posts, I guess it has to be mentioned.

darkdog · 03-05-2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

You have it all wrong. Those politicans are using "multiculturalism" as a negative term. It's a word no one wants to be associated with, and mostly used to descripe opponents in politics. Notice the use of "doctrine" in the speech and what it implies to include that word with multiculturalism.

I have it right. Please read what I actually said:

Quote:

David Cameron, Angela Merkel, and Nicolas Sarkozy have all three recently declared European-style multiculturalism to be a failure.

At one time, these countries embraced multiculturalism (or "multikulti" in Germany). Now, they recognize it as a dismal failure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Yes, europe is really a cautionary tale about what can happen if christianity take over. The US were much less christian a couple of centuries ago. Christian thinking have been on the increase for centuries. Now we are seeing the first signs of serious Islamophobia in the US. Good luck, you guys will need it.

That is simply wrong. Appallingly wrong in fact. If anything, Christianity has become less prominent in public life than it used to be. The Founders said things that would drive the ACLU, if they were around back then, absolutely insane, and no one batted an eye at the time. They wanted to set up a religious country, although not a theocracy. They were far more worried about government encroachment on religion than the other way around. There's virtually nobody who wants to set up some sort of Christian theocracy (and no, prayer in schools doesn't count as a theocracy. If it does, that means many of our Founders were guilty of wanting a theocracy). Fortunately, we also have very few Muslims who are interested in imposing sharia law (although some do exist). However, many Muslims around the world have expressed a desire to make the United States submit to Islam. Those are the ones we should keep an eye on and at least be aware of.

flip · 03-05-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

I have it right. Please read what I actually said:

At one time, these countries embraced multiculturalism (or "multikulti" in Germany). Now, they recognize it as a dismal failure.

Could you show us proof that some politicans once embraced multiculturalism? Politicans declaring something beeing a failure does not mean that they ever have embraced it.

By the way, in europe, when someone accidentally say "multiculturalism", it's like they are stuck, and try to figure out what to do with the cheap labor they once invited into europe, and don't need anymore. What this have with multicultural values to do, is something I don't get.

Quote:

That is simply wrong. Appallingly wrong in fact. If anything, Christianity has become less prominent in public life than it used to be. The Founders said things that would drive the ACLU, if they were around back then, absolutely insane, and no one batted an eye at the time. They wanted to set up a religious country, although not a theocracy. They were far more worried about government encroachment on religion than the other way around. There's virtually nobody who wants to set up some sort of Christian theocracy (and no, prayer in schools doesn't count as a theocracy. If it does, that means many of our Founders were guilty of wanting a theocracy). Fortunately, we also have very few Muslims who are interested in imposing sharia law (although some do exist). However, many Muslims around the world have expressed a desire to make the United States submit to Islam. Those are the ones we should keep an eye on and at least be aware of.

According to surveys, americans have becomed more religious, not less, in spite of religion beeing less prominent in public. The perecentage that belives in creationism is amazing. Megacurches, competing brances of christianity in a free market, etc. But my point was that if any religion have wrecked europe, it's christianity. Multiculturalism worked better in a muslim Spain than in a christian Spain, if you want to learn from the history.

**Reba** · 03-05-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

True.

Even after the colonies became America, my ancestors didn't know English till the early1800s. If I'm not mistaken, there prolly still some Mennonite or Amish sects that still don't know much English somewhere in the USA. I didn't feel it necessary to point out this was in the colonial era but per your posts, I guess it has to be mentioned.

People who want to join in the over all culture and commerce of a wider community will be more motivated to learn the prevailing language. People who want to stay in segregated communities and be self sustaining are less motivated to learn the prevailing language.

"Prolly?" Do you mean "probably?"

**Banjo** · 03-05-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

People who want to join in the over all culture and commerce of a wider community will be more motivated to learn the prevailing language.

Would you have a problem with Spanish becoming the prevailing language someday?

**Reba** · 03-05-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Would you have a problem with Spanish becoming the prevailing language someday?

Yes, because it would mean that a new language was brought into the USA from outside its borders in order to take over in a big sweep. In other words, an invasion.

Would France have a problem with another language taking over? Would Germany? Would Egypt? Would any other country?

Would any Spanish-speaking countries have a problem with English taking over?

Buffalo · 03-05-2011, 06:24 PM

I don't understand why you guys are talking about languages when the OP is talking about governement. Some radical muslims want to replace our governement with Sharia which is a big no-no in my book. No freedom for women at all.

I agree that USA needs to be tough with that kind of muslims.

Miss-Delectable · 03-05-2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

You have it all wrong. Those politicans are using "multiculturalism" as a negative term. It's a word no one wants to be associated with, and mostly used to descripe opponents in politics. Notice the use of "doctrine" in the speech and what it implies to include that word with multiculturalism.

I have noticed that. For example the Howard Govt never has used that word 'multiculturalism' and refused to do so. As far as I'm aware with Rudd and Gillard Govts, I don't think they have used this word either.

**Daredevel7** · 03-05-2011, 06:33 PM

It's amazing how much power Americans give to radical Muslims. When a radial group wants to change the government, we just say "Shut up, idiots.". But when a handful of radical Muslims say that they want to implement Sharia Law, people get their panties in a twist and ACTUALLY create laws to bar this from happening.

Do you guys honestly believe that we are "being taken over"? That Sharia law can actually be implemented here in America?

I think they have as much power as the PETA group. Why are we not implementing a law to ban eating animals? Or, on the flip side, ban any possible law that would ban eating animals?

PS - My opinion? It's because Americans are afraid of Muslims.

web730 · 03-05-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

It's amazing how much power Americans give to radical Muslims. When a radial group wants to change the government, we just say "Shut up, idiots.". But when a handful of radical Muslims say that they want to implement Sharia Law, people get their panties in a twist and ACTUALLY create laws to bar this from happening.

Do you guys honestly believe that we are "being taken over"? That Sharia law can actually be implemented here in America?

I think they have as much power as the PETA group. Why are we not implementing a law to ban eating animals? Or, on the flip side, ban any possible law that would ban eating animals?

PS - My opinion? It's because Americans are afraid of Muslims.

It won't happen in several years but who knows what happens in the next generation. The more muslims grow therefore they gather more voting power so anything (certain laws) could be changed over the time. The Europeans were talking about this as of late which they were really considered about it. They should be... and we should as well.

I agree that it's amazing, rather say lame, that Americans especially the politicians are becoming too much paranoid those days... just too much paranoid and weak to stand up. (too much big brother gov't and etc)

**Banjo** · 03-05-2011, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Yes, because it would mean that a new language was brought into the USA from outside its borders in order to take over in a big sweep. In other words, an invasion.

Would France have a problem with another language taking over? Would Germany? Would Egypt? Would any other country?

Would any Spanish-speaking countries have a problem with English taking over?

That's the thing... what's the big deal? In the end, it's just a... *gasp* language. If you can't deal with that, then that's just sad. Babel's tower, anybody?

**Reba** · 03-05-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

That's the thing... what's the big deal? In the end, it's just a... *gasp* language. If you can't deal with that, then that's just sad. Babel's tower, anybody?

You're teasing me, right?

flip · 03-06-2011, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

It's amazing how much power Americans give to radical Muslims. When a radial group wants to change the government, we just say "Shut up, idiots.". But when a handful of radical Muslims say that they want to implement Sharia Law, people get their panties in a twist and ACTUALLY create laws to bar this from happening.

Do you guys honestly believe that we are "being taken over"? That Sharia law can actually be implemented here in America?

I think they have as much power as the PETA group. Why are we not implementing a law to ban eating animals? Or, on the flip side, ban any possible law that would ban eating animals?

PS - My opinion? It's because Americans are afraid of Muslims.

A skateboarder dressed in a white islamic thobe, doing a jump of a ramp, with "Radical Islam" painted on it.

flip · 03-06-2011, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss-Delectable

I have noticed that. For example the Howard Govt never has used that word 'multiculturalism' and refused to do so. As far as I'm aware with Rudd and Gillard Govts, I don't think they have used this word either.

I'm not surprised about that.

**Daredevel7** · 03-06-2011, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by web730

It won't happen in several years but who knows what happens in the next generation. The more muslims grow therefore they gather more voting power so anything (certain laws) could be changed over the time. The Europeans were talking about this as of late which they were really considered about it. They should be... and we should as well.

I agree that it's amazing, rather say lame, that Americans especially the politicians are becoming too much paranoid those days... just too much paranoid and weak to stand up. (too much big brother gov't and etc)

Well then, I'm gonna go and have more kids.

We DO control how many Muslims come into the country, right?

(Do we control how many Mexicans? Well that's another matter.

)

**Banjo** · 03-06-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

You're teasing me, right?

I just think it's not that big of a deal considering the fact that Jesus Christ didn't speak English to start with. If Spanish becomes the prevailing language one day in the USA, big deal. In Canada, we have two main languages, English and French. So far, the country isn't in chaos because of it.

People speak different languages everywhere. English was once used to control people, as silly as that sounds. For instance, they tried to kill the Celtic languages across Europe and forced English upon them. However, people are not forcing Spanish upon the Americans. It's more of a language barrier if you ask me. They are not passing laws forcing English out of schools like they did in Europe hundreds of years ago.

darkdog · 03-06-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Could you show us proof that some politicans once embraced multiculturalism? Politicans declaring something beeing a failure does not mean that they ever have embraced it.

By the way, in europe, when someone accidentally say "multiculturalism", it's like they are stuck, and try to figure out what to do with the cheap labor they once invited into europe, and don't need anymore. What this have with multicultural values to do, is something I don't get.

I think you're right, that it wasn't so much that anyone embraced multiculturalism as they just let it evolve that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

According to surveys, americans have becomed more religious, not less, in spite of religion beeing less prominent in public. The perecentage that belives in creationism is amazing. Megacurches, competing brances of christianity in a free market, etc. But my point was that if any religion have wrecked europe, it's christianity. Multiculturalism worked better in a muslim Spain than in a christian Spain, if you want to learn from the history.

I don't know what surveys you're referring to, but the polls I've seen have shown religiosity in general and Christianity specifically on the decline. But even if Christian affiliation is on the increase, so what? You're simultaneously warning of Christianity taking over in sharia-like fashion while acknowledging that religion has taken a less prominent role in public life. The two points contradict each other.

Indeed, in centuries past, a much more political, inhumane, and twisted variant of Christianity did much damage to Europe. But if any religion made the United States the success it is, it's Christianity- a more independent, humane, and undistorted Christianity.

**Reba** · 03-06-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

I just think it's not that big of a deal considering the fact that Jesus Christ didn't speak English to start with.

I don't know how that is relevant but He also didn't live in the USA. (Also, He could read thoughts, so language to Him was irrelevant.)

Quote:

If Spanish becomes the prevailing language one day in the USA, big deal. In Canada, we have two main languages, English and French. So far, the country isn't in chaos because of it.

Canada and the USA are two separate countries. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. Also, the way languages were introduced and spread in the two countries was not the same.

Quote:

People speak different languages everywhere. English was once used to control people, as silly as that sounds. For instance, they tried to kill the Celtic languages across Europe and forced English upon them. However, people are not forcing Spanish upon the Americans.

Not yet.

Quote:

It's more of a language barrier if you ask me. They are not passing laws forcing English out of schools like they did in Europe hundreds of years ago.

There's nothing wrong with each country maintaining a national identity with its language.

**Reba** · 03-06-2011, 02:54 PM

Christians are supposed to live under whatever government system is in place in their respective countries. They are to render under Caesar, and pray for their political leaders.

There is no equivalent system of "Christian" laws that can be compared to Muslim Shariah laws.

**Foxrac** · 03-06-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Christians are supposed to live under whatever government system is in place in their respective countries. They are to render under Caesar, and pray for their political leaders.

There is no equivalent system of "Christian" laws that can be compared to Muslim Shariah laws.

I think it could be called biblical law?

In many years ago like around in 1500's, there were some Europe countries that are based on biblical law like you can be punishment to death for adultery or being homosexual. For stealing, you may be punished by tie up the stone and drop you down, that what history teacher told use about it but don't existed anymore today.

For sharia law, you can be punished by death for adultery or being homosexual and for stealing, your hand can be cut off.

flip · 03-06-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

I think you're right, that it wasn't so much that anyone embraced multiculturalism as they just let it evolve that way.

I don't know what surveys you're referring to, but the polls I've seen have shown religiosity in general and Christianity specifically on the decline. But even if Christian affiliation is on the increase, so what? You're simultaneously warning of Christianity taking over in sharia-like fashion while acknowledging that religion has taken a less prominent role in public life. The two points contradict each other.

Indeed, in centuries past, a much more political, inhumane, and twisted variant of Christianity did much damage to Europe. But if any religion made the United States the success it is, it's Christianity- a more independent, humane, and undistorted Christianity.

To be more specific, spirituality, including the christian kind, appears to have increased in USA, with a drop in formal church based christian faith. Charismatic and pentecoastal movements are growing, for example.

I am not warning about a christian sharia rule, but close minded christian mindsets that promotes war, prejudices and ethnocentrical thinking. Christianity does not need a prominent role in the public to make this happens.

However, I hope you are right that the same liberal mix of christian brances that made the US the success it became, will stop the US from becoming another crazy country in europe. Unfortunately, it does not looks too promising when american citizens starts to make incorrect claims about sharia and Islam.

flip · 03-06-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Christians are supposed to live under whatever government system is in place in their respective countries. They are to render under Caesar, and pray for their political leaders.

There is no equivalent system of "Christian" laws that can be compared to Muslim Shariah laws.

Early christians refused to make sacrifices to the roman emperors.

**Reba** · 03-06-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Early christians refused to make sacrifices to the roman emperors.

But they paid their taxes and obeyed the laws that weren't in conflict of their beliefs. When they did have to stand for their beliefs, they accepted the consequences of their actions.

**Dixie** · 03-06-2011, 11:48 PM

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto the Lord what is His.

Basically says Christians need to submit to the government over them and pay their taxes to that government, but also do not forget to give to God what is His (such as tithing 10% of your income) and to also stand up for the King when your government opposes but a Christian must accept the martyrdom for the cause of the Kingdom. The glory is not a glorious death but rather reaching Heaven and be given a crown of works to lay at the feet of God in worship.

Not preaching, just stating Christian beliefs. Believe me I'm one of those Southern Baptists that likes to study the bible from an academic point of view.

darkdog · 03-06-2011, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

I am not warning about a christian sharia rule, but close minded christian mindsets that promotes war, prejudices and ethnocentrical thinking. Christianity does not need a prominent role in the public to make this happens.

We have not gone to war over Christianity. That is false. As for prejudices, we have become one of the most accepting and tolerant nations in the history of the world and Christianity played no small role in that. Christianity fueled our slavery abolitionist movement and inspired our civil rights movement. As for ethnocentricity, you'll have to explain what you mean. Are you concerned with chauvinism or are you coming more from a cultural relativism perspective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

However, I hope you are right that the same liberal mix of christian brances that made the US the success it became, will stop the US from becoming another crazy country in europe. Unfortunately, it does not looks too promising when american citizens starts to make incorrect claims about sharia and Islam.

I see basically two incorrect claims made by some of our citizens. One, which is the most irksome, is the conflating of extreme Islam with all of Islam in general. However, most people I hear talking about extreme Islam are careful to qualify "I'm not talking about good, decent moderate Muslims. I'm only talking about the extremists". Only on rare occasions will I hear some bozo say something like "Ban Islam! Kick out the Muslims!" That sort of thing does happen, but fortunately, it turns most people off.

The other one is the exaggeration of the threat of sharia law or jihad from our own Muslims. Yes, extreme Islam does pose a threat, but it's almost all foreign and most people here recognize that.

Is that your critique also? Or did you have something different in mind?

03-05-2011, 06:24 PM	#102 (permalink)
Buffalo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,025	I don't understand why you guys are talking about languages when the OP is talking about governement. Some radical muslims want to replace our governement with Sharia which is a big no-no in my book. No freedom for women at all. I agree that USA needs to be tough with that kind of muslims. __________________ “The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)

03-05-2011, 06:33 PM	#104 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4,341	It's amazing how much power Americans give to radical Muslims. When a radial group wants to change the government, we just say "Shut up, idiots.". But when a handful of radical Muslims say that they want to implement Sharia Law, people get their panties in a twist and ACTUALLY create laws to bar this from happening. Do you guys honestly believe that we are "being taken over"? That Sharia law can actually be implemented here in America? I think they have as much power as the PETA group. Why are we not implementing a law to ban eating animals? Or, on the flip side, ban any possible law that would ban eating animals? PS - My opinion? It's because Americans are afraid of Muslims. saywhatkid likes this.

03-06-2011, 11:48 PM	#119 (permalink)
Dixie May I be found in Him Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 13,266	Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto the Lord what is His. Basically says Christians need to submit to the government over them and pay their taxes to that government, but also do not forget to give to God what is His (such as tithing 10% of your income) and to also stand up for the King when your government opposes but a Christian must accept the martyrdom for the cause of the Kingdom. The glory is not a glorious death but rather reaching Heaven and be given a crown of works to lay at the feet of God in worship. Not preaching, just stating Christian beliefs. Believe me I'm one of those Southern Baptists that likes to study the bible from an academic point of view. __________________ Oh, you will. It is all a dream and since matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the dreams must be real in all their myriad forms. -Beowulf This Delicate Thing God Has Made *The world is measured in peasants; smaller than a unicorn but, bigger than a tidbit!*

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03-06-2011, 02:54 PM	#114 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,108	Christians are supposed to live under whatever government system is in place in their respective countries. They are to render under Caesar, and pray for their political leaders. There is no equivalent system of "Christian" laws that can be compared to Muslim Shariah laws.