Obama supports Mosque at Ground Zero - Page 4

souggy · 08-18-2010, 01:00 PM

Wirelessly posted

Well, depends on the context. If you are talking about Spanish imperialism, or Latin American and Filipino history, the Church is automatically assumed to be the Roman Catholic Church with no label attached to the initial word; most of the time, the dominion is not even mentioned or introduced-- just "Church," with a capital "C."

Although, in context of THIS article, it's either bad editing, or a huge cultural misunderstanding.

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

I'm just curious, that all.

See post #68.

jillio · 08-18-2010, 01:04 PM

Post 68 does not answer Foxrac's question.

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

Well, depends on the context. If you are talking about Spanish imperialism, or Latin American and Filipino history, the Church is automatically assumed to be the Roman Catholic Church with no label attached to the initial word; most of the time, the dominion is not even mentioned or introduced-- just "Church," with a capital "C."

Usually preceded by "the", not "a", so the reference is to a specific religion, not a building.

Like you said, as used in subsequent references after a first reference that includes the full name, or an understood reference from the context.

**Foxrac** · 08-18-2010, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

See post #68.

Yup, I read it and I feel like that I have no opinion about it but I think that they should build in same site as loss occurred during 9/11, even if it is closer to ground zero.

I heard about NY governor will try to find a new site for mosque to be built instead of goes at ground zero.
Reports: Site of Islamic Center up in air – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

Would you be happy if Christian church is built at ground zero?

There is a Christian church that is trying to be rebuilt near it's original site which was at Ground Zero on 9/11.

No Church at Ground Zero, Yet Faith and Hope Persist - City Room Blog - NYTimes.com

souggy · 08-18-2010, 01:12 PM

Wirelessly posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

" It says that Congress may not set up a national religion or restrict freedom of religion. It does not say laws cannot be based on Judeo-Christian principles or Islamic principles or any other set of principles, as long as they adhere to the rest of the Constitution."

Are you sure you know what you're saying?

Many Christians and Muslims advocate the idea of having theocratic governments. Our founding fathers make sure it won't happen and outlined it clearly in the Constitution. Even made sure that no religious test shall be required.

Again, it boils down to this simple truth - you cannot deny others the same freedom no matter HOW you personally feel.

Actually you can.

Freedom of speech is denied to those who wish to yell fire in a theater. Gun rights are taken from felons...ect ect ect

Public safety is the out. The ground zero mosque could certain be seen as a threat to the safety of the neighbors.

Freedom of Speech is a joke. If it actually does exist, in the manner Americans think they are entitled to, then private companies can't fire employees, forum moderators and blog owners wouldn't be allowed to moderate comments and posts and so on. In the truest sense, "freedom of speech" is in context of government affairs: the government should not censor a person.

So to compare building a mosque to a theatre is moronic, especially since, first, most theatre are privately-owned, and second, "Fire!" is not even a political statement.

jillio · 08-18-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

Freedom of Speech is a joke. If it actually does exist, in the manner Americans think they are entitled to, then private companies can't fire employees, forum moderators and blog owners wouldn't allowed to moderate comments and posts and so on. In the truest sense, "freedom of speech" is in context of government affairs: the government should not censor a person.

So to compare building a mosque to a theatre is moronic.

Well said.

**Foxrac** · 08-18-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

There is a Christian church that is trying to be rebuilt near it's original site which was at Ground Zero on 9/11.

No Church at Ground Zero, Yet Faith and Hope Persist - City Room Blog - NYTimes.com

Yup, like I said above, they should rebuild in same site if original church is gone due 9/11 attacks.

**TXgolfer** · 08-18-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

So to compare building a mosque to a theatre is moronic, especially since, first, most theatre are privately-owned, and second, "Fire!" is not even a political statement.

Comparison was made only with regard to being able to withhold right in the name of public safety.

Remeber visitors to the mosque would be the "public" too. People are often forbidden to go into areas for their own safety.

Public safety is a trump card.

jillio · 08-18-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Comparison was made only with regard to being able to withhold right in the name of public safety.

Remeber visitors to the Mosque would be the "public" too. People are often forbidden to go into areas for their own safety.

Public safety is a trump card.

Just does not apply in this instance. The only way your examples would apply is if someone yelled "Fire!" in a crowded mosque.

**TXgolfer** · 08-18-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

I'm just curious, that all.

No I wouldn't have a problem with it.....And as an American I wouldn't have a problem with them building a mosque down the street from my house or next door to my church.

However building a mosque at ground zero in insensitive.

**Beowulf** · 08-18-2010, 01:41 PM

All this controversy is just a smoke screen in my opinion. We're not hearing from those who believe 9-11 to be an inside job, and their arguments make things entirely different than those presented here. Ach.

**TXgolfer** · 08-18-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Just does not apply in this instance. The only way your examples would apply is if someone yelled "Fire!" in a crowded mosque.

jillio · 08-18-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

No I wouldn't have a problem with it.....And as an American I wouldn't have a problem with them building a Mosque down the street from my house or next door to my church.

However building a mosque at ground zero in insensitive.

Did you miss the discussion? Why did you capitalize "mosque"?

**TXgolfer** · 08-18-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Did you miss the discussion? Why did you capitalize "mosque"?

Trying to build dialog with those super tolerant Muslims

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Comparison was made only with regard to being able to withhold right in the name of public safety.

Remeber visitors to the Mosque would be the "public" too. People are often forbidden to go into areas for their own safety.

Public safety is a trump card.

Lower case mosque please. (Grammar police citation issued.)

jillio · 08-18-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Trying to build dialog with those super tolerant Muslims

Riiiiight. There are so many of them reading AD posts today. And, I'm certain that they would see your error as well.

**TXgolfer** · 08-18-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Lower case mosque please. (Grammar police citation issued.)

Done

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Done

darkdog · 08-18-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

" It says that Congress may not set up a national religion or restrict freedom of religion. It does not say laws cannot be based on Judeo-Christian principles or Islamic principles or any other set of principles, as long as they adhere to the rest of the Constitution."

Are you sure you know what you're saying?

Yes, I know what I'm saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

Many Christians and Muslims advocate the idea of having theocratic governments.

That would be covered under setting up a national religion. Besides that, I don't think that many Muslims in this country want Sharia law imposed and I haven't heard any Christians say they want a theocratic Christian government. I'm sure you can find a few marginalized Jesus freaks who talk like that, but no one of importance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

Our founding fathers make sure it won't happen and outlined it clearly in the Constitution. Even made sure that no religious test shall be required.

Again, it boils down to this simple truth - you cannot deny others the same freedom no matter HOW you personally feel.

You haven't addressed my point. You've merely reiterated your original point. People are trying to use persuasion, not force, to get the mosque moved. How is that a denial of a right?

darkdog · 08-18-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Actually you can.

Freedom of speech is denied to those who wish to yell fire in a theater. Gun rights are taken from felons...ect ect ect

Public safety is the out. The ground zero mosque could certain be seen as a threat to the safety of the neighbors.

That's pretty tenuous. I don't see any evidence that they're going to set up a jihad shop inside. Otherwise, you could argue that non-Muslims will go nuts and start violence over this. I think we all deserve a little more credit.

**Reba** · 08-18-2010, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

... I haven't heard any Christians say they want a theocratic Christian government. I'm sure you can find a few marginalized Jesus freaks who talk like that, but no one of importance.

As a Christian, I don't want a theocratic government headed by anyone except Jesus himself.

Quote:

...People are trying to use persuasion, not force, to get the mosque moved. How is that a denial of a right?

Correct. Persuasion is not a denial of rights.

rolling7 · 08-19-2010, 01:24 PM

Persuasion would be the AFL-CIO telling the unions we will not build it!
If you build it...they will come.
If you don't build it..they will go somewhere else.

souggy · 08-19-2010, 01:33 PM

Wirelessly posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

... I haven't heard any Christians say they want a theocratic Christian government. I'm sure you can find a few marginalized Jesus freaks who talk like that, but no one of importance.

As a Christian, I don't want a theocratic government headed by anyone except Jesus himself.

Quote:

...People are trying to use persuasion, not force, to get the mosque moved. How is that a denial of a right?

Correct. Persuasion is not a denial of rights.

Even if Jesus himself was recarinated as a Chinese?

**Reba** · 08-19-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

Even if Jesus himself was recarinated as a Chinese?

When Jesus comes again he won't be reincarnated.

kokonut · 08-19-2010, 02:27 PM

Amen!!

**Banjo** · 08-19-2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

When Jesus comes again he won't be reincarnated.

So this guy isn't Jesus then?

I am Jesus Reincarnate. Any advice? - Yahoo! Answers

kokonut · 08-19-2010, 02:34 PM

If you understand about the Bible and re-incarnation, you'd know the difference.

**Banjo** · 08-19-2010, 02:41 PM

It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

08-18-2010, 01:00 PM	#91 (permalink)
souggy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 9,541	Wirelessly posted Well, depends on the context. If you are talking about Spanish imperialism, or Latin American and Filipino history, the Church is automatically assumed to be the Roman Catholic Church with no label attached to the initial word; most of the time, the dominion is not even mentioned or introduced-- just "Church," with a capital "C." Although, in context of THIS article, it's either bad editing, or a huge cultural misunderstanding. __________________ "It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman Last edited by souggy; 08-18-2010 at 01:02 PM.

08-19-2010, 02:27 PM	#117 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Amen!! __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

08-19-2010, 02:34 PM	#119 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	If you understand about the Bible and re-incarnation, you'd know the difference. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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08-18-2010, 01:04 PM	#93 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Post 68 does not answer Foxrac's question.

08-18-2010, 01:41 PM	#103 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,515	All this controversy is just a smoke screen in my opinion. We're not hearing from those who believe 9-11 to be an inside job, and their arguments make things entirely different than those presented here. Ach.

08-19-2010, 01:24 PM	#114 (permalink)
rolling7 Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,340	Persuasion would be the AFL-CIO telling the unions we will not build it! If you build it...they will come. If you don't build it..they will go somewhere else.

08-19-2010, 02:41 PM	#120 (permalink)
Banjo Expelled Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,650	It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)