Texas lawmaker to introduce anti-immigration bill - Page 6

netrox · 05-06-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

There are two sides here. One, there are illegal aliens. The other, legal aliens. One broke the law getting in while the other obtained legal means via proper documents. One is a criminal. The other is not.

Ok, why should we treat illegals as criminals if they have done nothing criminal except breaking a law just BECAUSE they're not legal in terms of overstaying here?

You lump many illegals to criminals - it's as if all illegals are involved in gang crimes and drug violence and all that. It is NOT true.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

Ok, why should we treat illegals as criminals if they have done nothing criminal except breaking a law just BECAUSE they're not legal in terms of overstaying here?

You lump many illegals to criminals - it's as if all illegals are involved in gang crimes and drug violence and all that. It is NOT true.

Exactly. This law allows presumption of criminal status based on nothing more than ethnicity. Very, very dangerous territory.

05-06-2010, 01:44 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. It's illegal for anyone to drive around without an insurance card. If you are in this country as an immigrant then you should have to carry your immigration card. That way if/when you get stopped you have your proof. What next, we should not have to carry our identification. Or, I should be able to walk around with a ski mask on and nobody should question me.

**Reba** · 05-06-2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is in-group racism, as well. It is a well known phenomenon. Color of the skin or ethnic origins is not the determining factor. Intent, whether conscious or unconsious, of the behavior exhibited is the determining factor.

So the police can never win. They'll always be accused of racism no matter what.

**Jiro** · 05-06-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I don't see what the big deal is. It's illegal for anyone to drive around without an insurance card. If you are in this country as an immigrant then you should have to carry your immigration card. That way if/when you get stopped you have your proof. What next, we should not have to carry our identification. Or, I should be able to walk around with a ski mask on and nobody should question me.

when you drive - you have driver license, registration card, and insurance paper. That should be good enough for police since you're required to show a proof of immigration status when obtaining license anyway. The immigrant shouldn't show additional document like Alien Card.

but for non-driver, well it's always good idea to have a form of ID on you at all time but point is - with this law, it increases more "police stop" over minor infractions like loitering which is rarely enforced. This alienates people.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

So the police can never win. They'll always be accused of racism no matter what.

If you say so, Reba. I'll just say that is a gross misinterpretation of my reply, but, hey...that seems to be status quo for a few.

kokonut · 05-06-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

Ok, why should we treat illegals as criminals if they have done nothing criminal except breaking a law just BECAUSE they're not legal in terms of overstaying here?

You lump many illegals to criminals - it's as if all illegals are involved in gang crimes and drug violence and all that. It is NOT true.

If you break a law, it's a crime such as entering the U.S. without proper documentations. Hence, that makes you a criminal. This is true for any country you try and enter on purpose without any or proper documentation. That makes them a criminal. Let's not mince words here.

kokonut · 05-06-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

So the police can never win. They'll always be accused of racism no matter what.

Though there is diversity in a police force. It's amazing how many people think "white" when hear the word "police." In a police force they already know that diversity means strength for them.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:27 PM

Boycotts put Arizona's reputation on the line - CNN.com

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Though there is diversity in a police force. It's amazing how many people think "white" when hear the word "police." In a police force they already know that diversity means strength for them.

Another misinterpretation. Diversity does not mean lack of racism or prejudicial belief systems.

**Jiro** · 05-06-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Though there is diversity in a police force. It's amazing how many people think "white" when hear the word "police." In a police force they already know that diversity means strength for them.

the racism exists even in their own race. it's rather a social phenomenon in a complicated way but it is well-documented and studied. This proves that the racism is "bred" within depending on where you were "born and raised." The Mexican-American person can be racist toward Mexican person.... and the Mexican can be racist toward Mexican person in same country.

and that concludes your sociology & psychology lesson of the day.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

the racism exists even in their own race. it's rather a social phenomenon in a complicated way but it is well-documented and studied. This proves that the racism is "bred" within depending on where you were "born and raise." The Mexican-American person can be racist toward Mexican person.... and the Mexican can be racist toward Mexican person in same country.

and that concludes your sociology & psychology lesson of the day.

Thank you! Someone understands the concept I was referring to!

**Jiro** · 05-06-2010, 07:30 PM

Tucson cop first to sue to block AZ immigration law

Quote:

A Tucson police officer has filed a federal lawsuit challenging Arizona's new immigration law, claiming the legislation will hinder police investigations in Hispanic-prevalent areas.

The suit, filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Tucson by Officer Martin H. Escobar, also claims SB 1070 would make police focus more on immigration than helping people in need.

"What are we saying to the undocumented who are victims of crimes, what are we saying to the undocumented who are critical witnesses to crimes?" said Escobar's attorney, Richard Martinez.

The suit also claims the new law, which Gov. Jan Brewer signed on April 23, violates several constitutional rights and also violates federal law because the Tucson Police Department and the city have no authority to perform immigration duties.

Escobar, 45, a 15-year veteran of TPD, noted in the lawsuit his experience patrolling the Hispanic-heavy Operations Division South indicates there's no racially neutral criteria that can be used by officers to determine whether a person is in the country illegally.

"Hey, there's a lot of people lawfully who speak Spanish; there's a lot of people who speak with an accent," Martinez said. "Those tell you that they're Latino or Hispanic or Mexican, but they don't tell you anything about their document status."

Any attempt to confirm immigration status when making contact with the public would "seriously impede law enforcement investigations and facilitate the successful commission of crimes in the United States," the suit claims.

Martinez noted that when police are called to an incident at a school, such as for a report of abuse or neglect, children who are in the country illegally would then need to have their immigration status checked despite federal protection from such queries by school officials.

And situations where a person was the victim of the crime or had witnessed a crime would put the officer's focus more on immigration than the crime itself if the officer had reason to believe a person was undocumented.

"This doesn't help law enforcement, it hurts them," Martinez said. "Police officers always exercise discretion, but this statute takes away discretion."

Martinez said officers who attempt to get around SB 1070 could face department discipline, loss of state peace officer certification and even the possibility of lawsuits by members of the public if, for instance, a person requested police check someone's immigration status and the officer didn't do so.

Escobar's suit asks for police to be prevented from having to comply with SB 1070, leaving immigration duties to federal law enforcement, and to prevent state legislators from enacting any other laws dealing with immigration.

Police Chief Roberto Villaseñor was out of town and unavailable for comment, but department spokesman Sgt. Fabian Pacheco said TPD's policy prevents comment on pending litigation.

Escobar's suit was not filed on behalf of TPD and doesn't necessarily reflect the department's views or opinions, Pacheco said, noting TPD's internal affairs office received numerous calls and emails complaining about the litigation.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:34 PM

Good article, jiro! Sad that those that are so supportive of these types of laws cannot take the time or energy to think about the far reaching consequences. Seems they can see no farther than the tip of their own noses.

souggy · 05-06-2010, 07:38 PM

Wirelessly posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Good article, jiro! Sad that those that are so supportive of these types of laws cannot take the time or energy to think about the far reaching consequences. Seems they can see no farther than the tip of their own noses.

To be fair, they're not wrong to think it's legitimate. It looks legitimate on papers, but to those that live in the real world... they know that things don't always pan out that well as people expected them to be.

Notice the ones most vocal about the whole issues are the ones who witnessed first-hand or were victims of corrupted police actions?

**Jiro** · 05-06-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Thank you! Someone understands the concept I was referring to!

I'm unfortunately influenced by it. I'm open-minded but it is hard.

Ya'all probably do not quite understand this concept so let me help you. I'll ask you this question. When you hear the word "socialism" or "communism".... did you have some kind violent & disgusted thought about it and you don't even know why? yep there you go.

This kind of thought is unconsciously ingrained into your head by American society (... or propaganda). That's why we are not very open-minded like Europeans and that's why we are a much more conservative type compared to most of the world.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

To be fair, they're not wrong to think it's legitimate. It looks legitimate on papers, but to those that live in the real world... they know that things don't always pan out that well as people expected them to be.

Notice the ones most vocal about the whole issues are the ones who witnessed first-hand or were victims of corrupted police actions?

That is exactly why people need to look deeper before going all out in favor of laws such as these. It LOOKS legit on paper. People should be encouraged to look farther to application.

Yep, I noticed that.

Berry · 05-06-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I'm unfortunately influenced by it. I'm open-minded but it is hard.

Ya'all probably do not quite understand this concept so let me help you. I'll ask you this question. When you hear the word "socialism" or "communism".... did you have some kind violent & disgusted thought about it and you don't even know why? yep there you go.

This kind of thought is unconsciously ingrained into your head by American society (... or propaganda). That's why we are not very open-minded like Europeans and that's why we are a much more conservative type compared to most of the world.

You can think of them as "ingrained reactions" or "social triggers" that have been instilled. They pass by the thinking brain and head straight to the "Go get 'em gut."

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I'm unfortunately influenced by it. I'm open-minded but it is hard.

Ya'all probably do not quite understand this concept so let me help you. I'll ask you this question. When you hear the word "socialism" or "communism".... did you have some kind violent & disgusted thought about it and you don't even know why? yep there you go.

This kind of thought is unconsciously ingrained into your head by American society (... or propaganda). That's why we are not very open-minded like Europeans and that's why we are a much more conservative type compared to most of the world.

To be true, everyone is influenced by it. The difference lies in the fact that most deny or fail to recognize the degree to which they are influenced.

jillio · 05-06-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

You can think of them as "ingrained reactions" or "social triggers" that have been instilled. They pass by the thinking brain and head straight to the "Go get 'em gut."

Bingo. Heuristics. Mental short cuts that reduce the need to actually think. And let's be honest...there is a frighteningly large proportion of our society that simply does not want to have to think.

**Beowulf** · 05-06-2010, 09:08 PM

Sometimes I don't want to think either.

**Reba** · 05-06-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If you say so, Reba. I'll just say that is a gross misinterpretation of my reply, but, hey...that seems to be status quo for a few.

Then please tell me under what circumstances the police won't be accused of racism if they confront a driver such as in the college student example.

Berry · 05-06-2010, 10:19 PM

"Help, officer. Stop that man, he just beat and raped me."

"Just the facts, ma'm. Can you prove you are a citizen?"

jillio · 05-07-2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Sometimes I don't want to think either.

Me, either, Beowulf! We all use heuristics to some degree.

jillio · 05-07-2010, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Then please tell me under what circumstances the police won't be accused of racism if they confront a driver such as in the college student example.

Sorry, Reba. Unlike some, I don't pretend to have a crystal ball.

**Reba** · 05-07-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Sorry, Reba. Unlike some, I don't pretend to have a crystal ball.

I didn't ask for a prediction. I asked for a possible scenario.

So you can't think of any possibly situation where a campus cop wouldn't be accused of racism?

Then I was right. They can't win. No matter what happens, if the person stopped by a campus cop makes the accusation "racism", there is no possible defense for the cop. If the accuser is the same race or different race, it doesn't matter. The cop will be accused, regardless.

If I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me. Is it possible for a campus cop to enforce laws against traffic infractions by minority students without being racist?

kokonut · 05-07-2010, 01:16 PM

Is that Bob Andweave there?

Steinhauer · 05-07-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Another misinterpretation. Diversity does not mean lack of racism or prejudicial belief systems.

So the police can never win. They'll always be accused of racism no matter what.

Steinhauer · 05-07-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Good article, jiro! Sad that those that are so supportive of these types of laws cannot take the time or energy to think about the far reaching consequences. Seems they can see no farther than the tip of their own noses.

I would like to think the far reaching objective is to deport all illegals.

Why do you support illegals?

kokonut · 05-07-2010, 01:32 PM

Boy, talk about angst ridden!

05-06-2010, 10:19 PM	#173 (permalink)
Berry Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oroville, Ca. Posts: 2,024	"Help, officer. Stop that man, he just beat and raped me." "Just the facts, ma'm. Can you prove you are a citizen?" __________________ Free Jillio! Living life in the sandbox.

05-07-2010, 01:16 PM	#177 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Is that Bob Andweave there? __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

05-07-2010, 01:32 PM	#180 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Boy, talk about angst ridden! __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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05-06-2010, 01:44 PM	#153 (permalink)
rockdrummer Guest Posts: n/a	I don't see what the big deal is. It's illegal for anyone to drive around without an insurance card. If you are in this country as an immigrant then you should have to carry your immigration card. That way if/when you get stopped you have your proof. What next, we should not have to carry our identification. Or, I should be able to walk around with a ski mask on and nobody should question me.

05-06-2010, 07:27 PM	#159 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Boycotts put Arizona's reputation on the line - CNN.com

05-06-2010, 07:34 PM	#164 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Good article, jiro! Sad that those that are so supportive of these types of laws cannot take the time or energy to think about the far reaching consequences. Seems they can see no farther than the tip of their own noses.

05-06-2010, 09:08 PM	#171 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,515	Sometimes I don't want to think either.