Arizona governor signs immigration bill - Page 13

souggy · 04-26-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

criminals have civil rights. that should apply for illegals as well. any human being on American soil - regardless of their immigration status is entitled to civil rights. we've been preaching about it to all countries with history of poor human rights.

The illegals obviously do not have voting rights, gun rights, and several other rights that the American citizen has. The major portion of Civil Rights is the human rights. They are entitled for right to a fair trial too... if they claimed to be political asylum or whatever.

Here's a problem - those kind of people want you to think the illegals will have the same rights as American citizen if Obama passed some bills (which does not exist at all).

Right. Illegals don't have political rights.

PowerON · 04-26-2010, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes I am to a certain degree. Everybody is. Whoever denies it is the most racist one

Quick! Let's take over this USA, rulz by deaf Koreans!

CJB · 04-26-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Do those countries have an illegal immigration problem? Are they racially profiling?

Who cares? If they are, is it a standard we really want to be following? Or do we want to be setting a higher standard?

CJB · 04-26-2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

That's spelled out in the Executive order by the governor. I wouldn't know the exact criteria. Though I believe there can be processes involved where racial profiling isn't needed or required at all. For example, at Ben Gurion airport security officials use behavior profiling to narrow down potential terrorists (not saying illegals are terrorists, mind you, just pointing something out here) only because in the past they did use racial profiling but it didn't work because a group of Japanese terrorists got past the security section because they didn't fit their racial profile. The result proved devastating.

So is this the type of profiling they're using at security checkpoints when every passenger who looks remotely Muslim gets "randomly selected" for further checking?

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

So is this the type of profiling they're using at security checkpoints when every passenger who looks remotely Muslim gets "randomly selected" for further checking?

It's a behavior based profiling. Why do you think I put in article about the Japanese Red Army situation at Ben Gurion airport and how racial profiling failed in the first place? Did you not read what I wrote or the link I provided? It goes on to say because of the behavior profiling they caught people who never would've fit their racial profile in the first place. It works.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

It's a behavior based profiling. Why do you think I put in article about the Japanese Red Army situation at Ben Gurion airport and how racial profiling failed in the first place? Did you not read what I wrote or the link I provided? It goes on to say because of the behavior profiling they caught people who never would've fit their racial profile in the first place. It works.

behavior profiling. racial profiling. gender profiling. religion profiling. all same thing to me. all matter of oxymoronic "Politically Correct" word game.

**sallylou** · 04-26-2010, 06:16 PM

Poweron, I *knew* it! May I be your evil minion?

jillio · 04-26-2010, 06:21 PM

Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- At a vigil protesting the passage of Arizona's tough new illegal immigration law, a young man in Army fatigues and a beret lit a candle at a makeshift shrine.

Pfc. Jose Medina, an Army medic, came to the Arizona capitol while on leave, to express his sadness over the law, signed by Arizona's governor on Friday.

"I'm here because this is something that's close to my heart," said Medina. "I went off to protect this country, to protect my family. That's what hurts."

The new law requires immigrants to carry their registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect that they're in the country illegally. Critics fear the law will result in racial profiling.

The bill "strengthens the laws of our state. It protects all of us, every Arizona citizen, and everyone here in our state lawfully. And it does so while ensuring that the constitutional rights of all in Arizona remain solid, stable and steadfast," Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer said.

Medina, 20, is from El Mirage, a working class Latino community northwest of Phoenix.

"When I first joined the military, they would ask us where you from, and I would say 'I'm from the great state of Arizona,' " Medina reflected. "I was raised here, I grew up here. Now I don't know if I can say that so proudly. I don't know if I want to live here anymore."

Medina says he came to the United States from Mexico illegally when he was 2 years old.

When he was 11 years old he became a legal resident of the United States and now has a green card.

"I felt I had a huge debt to this country that's given me so much," Medina said. "When I heard the law that passed, I couldn't believe it. Because the America I know, freedom, liberties we enjoy, are for everyone and then this law passes and I'm like 'wow.' It's a shame; it's a state that doesn't even want you here? If I take this uniform off I'm just another person who came here illegally."

Just six hours before shipping off, Medina's family and friends gathered for a farewell feast. The Mexican barbecue could be smelled a block away.

Impassioned conversation about the controversial law could be heard over the scratching of forks and knives on plates of tangy barbecue.

"You may go to Afghanistan, you may go to Iraq," said Medina's close family friend Victor, who did not want his full name used. "After this night man, we may not see you again. You can give your life for this country. But your mom may be stopped by Joe Arpaio (the Maricopa County, Arizona, sheriff known for aggressive policing.)

"That's true," Medina answered. "But it's my duty to go."

"You're Mexican," Victor said.

"I am of Mexican decent," said Medina. "But I have grown to be an American."

Ricky, 22, a friend who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, is white and stops eating.

"We are all brothers over there," said Ricky, who did not want his full name used.

Before the sun rose over Arizona on Sunday morning, Medina left El Mirage for deployment to Germany.

Jose Medina wondered if some of his family members or friends, some of whom are undocumented, would still be in El Mirage when he returned.

"I worry will my family live in peace," he said. "What good is keeping us safe here ... if we lose a part of what makes America so great? If we drive fear into our own peoples' hearts?"

State's new immigration law worries Arizona soldier - CNN.com

souggy · 04-26-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Poweron, I *knew* it! May I be your evil minion?

I am in command of the kimchi manufacturing and export.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

behavior profiling. racial profiling. gender profiling. religion profiling. all same thing to me. all matter of oxymoronic "Politically Correct" word game.

Yep. There is no difference. Especially when you consider exactly how much behavior is culturally based. It is racial or ethnic profiling no matter how one tries to spin it.

rolling7 · 04-26-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro

what rights? Do they currently have those rights? Source please?

lets look at it this way. Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulls up to a convience store to get a drink or something. And he notice a young man standing outside the store lighting up a smoke. The officer immediately thinks, "hey, this guy looks young, lets check him out." so the officer ask for id and the young guy knew he was caught because he is under the age to buy and use smokes. Now did the officer do his job or was he "picking on" the kid' my point is that all officers have to use judgement and make a snap decision while on patrol and we all need to support these officers. What happens to the people after the stop is immaterial if the officer had a good reason to ask for id.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

lets look at it this way. Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulls up to a convience store to get a drink or something. And he notice a young man standing outside the store lighting up a smoke. The officer immediately thinks, "hey, this guy looks young, lets check him out." so the officer ask for id and the young guy knew he was caught because he is under the age to buy and use smokes. Now did the officer do his job or was he "picking on" the kid' my point is that all officers have to use judgement and make a snap decision while on patrol and we all need to support these officers. What happens to the people after the stop is immaterial if the officer had a good reason to ask for id.

This is an apples to oranges comparison.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

I am in command of the kimchi manufacturing and export.

I'm glad to know that. I like kimchi. Can I place my order directly with you?

souggy · 04-26-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I'm glad to know that. I like kimchi. Can I place my order directly with you?

Please do!

I don't offer bimbibap or kimbap though. Can't guarantee freshness upon arrival, you know.

CJB · 04-26-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

It's a behavior based profiling. Why do you think I put in article about the Japanese Red Army situation at Ben Gurion airport and how racial profiling failed in the first place? Did you not read what I wrote or the link I provided? It goes on to say because of the behavior profiling they caught people who never would've fit their racial profile in the first place. It works.

I did read what you wrote. But the article you linked has no effect on the fact that people who appear "Muslim" get pulled over the most often at security checkpoints. And that's cause security checkpoint officers use racial profiling anyway.

CJB · 04-26-2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

lets look at it this way. Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulls up to a convience store to get a drink or something. And he notice a young man standing outside the store lighting up a smoke. The officer immediately thinks, "hey, this guy looks young, lets check him out." so the officer ask for id and the young guy knew he was caught because he is under the age to buy and use smokes. Now did the officer do his job or was he "picking on" the kid' my point is that all officers have to use judgement and make a snap decision while on patrol and we all need to support these officers. What happens to the people after the stop is immaterial if the officer had a good reason to ask for id.

Smoking and drinking laws are directly age-related. There's an age limit. If that kid is underage, he is breaking the law. But illegal immigration isn't directly race-related. While many immigrants may be of Hispanic descent, being of Hispanic descent and being in the U.S. is not a crime in and of itself.

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

I did read what you wrote. But the article you linked has no effect on the fact that people who appear "Muslim" get pulled over the most often at security checkpoints. And that's cause security checkpoint officers use racial profiling anyway.

No. Just because based on their behavior profiling results it netted a person who appear "Muslim" isn't racial profiling. Just as it worked when they caught an Irish woman with seven pounds of explosives on her.

Quote:

The system works. Fourteen years later, the case of Anne Marie Murphy — prevented by Israeli security agents from boarding an El Al flight with seven pounds of explosives — makes the point.

CJB · 04-26-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

No. Just because based on their behavior profiling results it netted a person who appear "Muslim" isn't racial profiling. Just as it worked when they caught an Irish woman with seven pounds of explosives on her.

It doesn't work. But people use it anyway. Just ask anyone in your life who could be mistaken for Muslim and who travels.

**deafskeptic** · 04-26-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

It doesn't work. But people use it anyway. Just ask anyone in your life who could be mistaken for Muslim and who travels.

Which reminds me of the time I used to belong to forum run by Native Americans. I remember some of them complaining that cops would stop them for looking like Muslims. It never occurred to me that they could look faintly look like Muslims.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Please do!

I don't offer bimbibap or kimbap though. Can't guarantee freshness upon arrival, you know.

Understood.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

No. Just because based on their behavior profiling results it netted a person who appear "Muslim" isn't racial profiling. Just as it worked when they caught an Irish woman with seven pounds of explosives on her.

Nope. Not buying it. Behavior is culturally dependent. Just another word for racial or ethnic profiling no matter how you spin it.

souggy · 04-26-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Which reminds me of the time I used to belong to forum run by Native Americans. I remember some of them complaining that cops would stop them for looking like Muslims. It never occurred to me that they could look faintly look like Muslims.

Aka... anyone who isn't white as a ghost, and isn't blacker than night.

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

It doesn't work. But people use it anyway. Just ask anyone in your life who could be mistaken for Muslim and who travels.

At Ben Gurion Airport it has worked for without any terrorist incident happening there Sorry. It does work especially considering the fact also that Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries. A prize to consider by many terrorists to try and hit the airport and their airplanes.

Israel Airport Safety | El Al Security | Ben-Gurion Security | Considerations

jillio · 04-26-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

At Ben Gurion Airport it has worked for without any terrorist incident happening there Sorry. It does work especially considering the fact also that Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries. A prize to consider by many terrorists to try and hit the airport and their airplanes.

Israel Airport Safety | El Al Security | Ben-Gurion Security | Considerations

There were also claims not so long ago that lynching based on racial profiling worked.

rockin'robin · 04-26-2010, 07:48 PM

Here in Florida, when you go to renew ur driver's license, update ur address, or have a name change....they now require many, many forms of identity. Birth certificate, social security card, proof of address (2 or 3forms of proof), and ur marriage or divorse certificates.......It's the law in several states, just has not been enforced until this year (I believe)....It is said due to 9-1-1...and some people acquiring a drivers license, to find they were terrorists....(here in Florida)....Florida has "cracked down"! Big time!

**Reba** · 04-26-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Wirelessly posted

Do you agree that people of different backgrounds shouldn't have to worry about the police?

Worry about the police doing what?

Do you mean people of various racial and ethnic backgrounds who are legally in a country?

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Worry about the police doing what?

Do you mean people of various racial and ethnic backgrounds who are legally in a country?

yes. Even I am concerned. Looks like I have to carry additional document when visiting my friend in Phoenix.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

lets look at it this way. Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulls up to a convience store to get a drink or something. And he notice a young man standing outside the store lighting up a smoke. The officer immediately thinks, "hey, this guy looks young, lets check him out." so the officer ask for id and the young guy knew he was caught because he is under the age to buy and use smokes. Now did the officer do his job or was he "picking on" the kid' my point is that all officers have to use judgement and make a snap decision while on patrol and we all need to support these officers. What happens to the people after the stop is immaterial if the officer had a good reason to ask for id.

your example is erroneous. Here's a more relevant example -

Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulled up to a convenience store to get a drink or something. And he noticed a young man standing outside the store, lighting up a smoke, minding his own business. The officer immediately thinks - "hey... this guy is [insert a nationality]. let's check him out."

The probable cause? Loitering. So officer asks for ID and then asks for proof of immigration. The guy obviously doesn't have one on him because he didn't expect to be treated like a second-class citizen in his hometown where he was born and raised for over 30 years.

*gasp* does this sound eerily familiar??? ah yes!!! the Palestine living in West Bank who are harassed by Israeli soldiers on daily basis.

so you tell me - is it very likely that the officer would ask a Caucasian man loitering around for proof of immigration?

**Reba** · 04-26-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's why I checked California. yep - same as your state law. NJ same. NY same.

So, anyone who is in the country legally can obtain sufficient ID proof to show the police if they are stopped. I don't think it's too much trouble to show a drivers license or state ID card.

**Reba** · 04-26-2010, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

by racial profiling

Huh? How would racial profiling prove whether nor not someone is legally in the country?

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04-26-2010, 06:16 PM	#367 (permalink)
sallylou Potterhead and Janeite Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 6,653	Poweron, I knew it! May I be your evil minion?

04-26-2010, 06:21 PM	#368 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- At a vigil protesting the passage of Arizona's tough new illegal immigration law, a young man in Army fatigues and a beret lit a candle at a makeshift shrine. Pfc. Jose Medina, an Army medic, came to the Arizona capitol while on leave, to express his sadness over the law, signed by Arizona's governor on Friday. "I'm here because this is something that's close to my heart," said Medina. "I went off to protect this country, to protect my family. That's what hurts." The new law requires immigrants to carry their registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect that they're in the country illegally. Critics fear the law will result in racial profiling. The bill "strengthens the laws of our state. It protects all of us, every Arizona citizen, and everyone here in our state lawfully. And it does so while ensuring that the constitutional rights of all in Arizona remain solid, stable and steadfast," Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer said. Medina, 20, is from El Mirage, a working class Latino community northwest of Phoenix. "When I first joined the military, they would ask us where you from, and I would say 'I'm from the great state of Arizona,' " Medina reflected. "I was raised here, I grew up here. Now I don't know if I can say that so proudly. I don't know if I want to live here anymore." Medina says he came to the United States from Mexico illegally when he was 2 years old. When he was 11 years old he became a legal resident of the United States and now has a green card. "I felt I had a huge debt to this country that's given me so much," Medina said. "When I heard the law that passed, I couldn't believe it. Because the America I know, freedom, liberties we enjoy, are for everyone and then this law passes and I'm like 'wow.' It's a shame; it's a state that doesn't even want you here? If I take this uniform off I'm just another person who came here illegally." Just six hours before shipping off, Medina's family and friends gathered for a farewell feast. The Mexican barbecue could be smelled a block away. Impassioned conversation about the controversial law could be heard over the scratching of forks and knives on plates of tangy barbecue. "You may go to Afghanistan, you may go to Iraq," said Medina's close family friend Victor, who did not want his full name used. "After this night man, we may not see you again. You can give your life for this country. But your mom may be stopped by Joe Arpaio (the Maricopa County, Arizona, sheriff known for aggressive policing.) "That's true," Medina answered. "But it's my duty to go." "You're Mexican," Victor said. "I am of Mexican decent," said Medina. "But I have grown to be an American." Ricky, 22, a friend who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, is white and stops eating. "We are all brothers over there," said Ricky, who did not want his full name used. Before the sun rose over Arizona on Sunday morning, Medina left El Mirage for deployment to Germany. Jose Medina wondered if some of his family members or friends, some of whom are undocumented, would still be in El Mirage when he returned. "I worry will my family live in peace," he said. "What good is keeping us safe here ... if we lose a part of what makes America so great? If we drive fear into our own peoples' hearts?" State's new immigration law worries Arizona soldier - CNN.com

04-26-2010, 07:48 PM	#385 (permalink)
rockin'robin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 15,268	Here in Florida, when you go to renew ur driver's license, update ur address, or have a name change....they now require many, many forms of identity. Birth certificate, social security card, proof of address (2 or 3forms of proof), and ur marriage or divorse certificates.......It's the law in several states, just has not been enforced until this year (I believe)....It is said due to 9-1-1...and some people acquiring a drivers license, to find they were terrorists....(here in Florida)....Florida has "cracked down"! Big time!