Arizona governor signs immigration bill - Page 12

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

criminals have civil rights. that should apply for illegals as well. any human being on American soil - regardless of their immigration status is entitled to civil rights. we've been preaching about it to all countries with history of poor human rights.

The illegals obviously do not have voting rights, gun rights, and several other rights that the American citizen has. The major portion of Civil Rights is the human rights. They are entitled for right to a fair trial too... if they claimed to be political asylum or whatever.

Here's a problem - those kind of people want you to think the illegals will have the same rights as American citizen if Obama passed some bills (which does not exist at all).

Again, your missing something very important. These Civil Rights, that you keep championing, ONLY APPLY TO U.S. CITIZENS

If the illegals don't like that, they can leave ..... which is what Arizona is telling them to do.
Which is what the Federal Government should be telling them to do.
Your argument is giving them an incentive to stay.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Again, your missing something very important. These Civil Rights, that you keep championing, ONLY APPLY TO U.S. CITIZENS

If the illegals don't like that, they can leave ..... which is what Arizona is telling them to do.

Which is what the Federal Government should be telling them to do.

and you call yourself an American... yet you don't even know the Constitution by heart? I'm an immigrant ffs. shameless....

14th Amendment - "Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law."

Fact check: Illegal immigrants have legal rights | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Quote:

The Supreme Court has ruled that these provisions apply to all persons in the U.S., without regard to race, or nationality. Therefore, U.S. residents -- legal and illegal -- have constitutional rights such as equal protection of the law and the right to due process.

Other rights undocumented residents are entitled to include Fourth Amendment protections against illegal searches of homes. The Supreme Court, in a landmark ruling 25 years ago, also ruled that all children, regardless of their immigration status, are entitled to free public education, as mandated by the Fourteenth Amendment.

Federal law also requires publicly funded hospitals to provide emergency care to all patients, illegal or not.

homework for you - 02/13/03 - Plyler vs. Doe: The Solution and FactCheck.org: Test-marketing the "Amnesty" Issue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Your argument is giving them an incentive to stay.

better than your argument which is to give them an incentive to be racist, abusive, and hostile to all immigrants - both legal and illegal. You, sir, are unconsciously racist (and a facist)

As Reba said - PREVENT them from coming into America. PREVENT the incentive to make them come. Seal up the border. Boost up the manpower and equipment to monitor the border. Crack down on corporations and employers for hiring illegals.

CJB · 04-26-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Again, your missing something very important. These Civil Rights, that you keep championing, ONLY APPLY TO U.S. CITIZENS

If the illegals don't like that, they can leave ..... which is what Arizona is telling them to do.
Which is what the Federal Government should be telling them to do.
Your argument is giving them an incentive to stay.

Being illegal, they don't have the rights that the U.S. grants its citizens, such as voting. But as humans, even illegal immigrants are perfectly entitled to the same fundamental human rights that all humans on this planet are entitled to. Even criminals are given a right to due process.

Quote:

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
^ Top

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

and you call yourself an American... yet you don't even know the Constitution by heart? I'm an immigrant ffs. shameless....

14th Amendment - "Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law."

Fact check: Illegal immigrants have legal rights | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

homework for you - 02/13/03 - Plyler vs. Doe: The Solution and FactCheck.org: Test-marketing the "Amnesty" Issue

better than your argument which is to give them an incentive to be racist, abusive, and hostile to all immigrants - both legal and illegal. You, sir, are unconsciously racist (and a facist)

As Reba said - PREVENT them from coming into America. PREVENT the incentive to make them come. Seal up the border. Boost up the manpower and equipment to monitor the border. Crack down on corporations and employers for hiring illegals.

Yawn .... there you go putting words in my mouth.

I clearly stated earlier that illegals should be treated like criminals. Because, after all, that is what they are.

Again, do you think it is a crime to enter the U.S. Illegally? Or, should illegals be rewarded for criminal behavior? (i.e. should taxpayers money be used for their healthcare and education? do they have the right to sue for "equal accessibility"?)

And when proven in a court of law that an individual is here illegally, should they be deported?

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

Being illegal, they don't have the rights that the U.S. grants its citizens, such as voting. But as humans, even illegal immigrants are perfectly entitled to the same fundamental human rights that all humans on this planet are entitled to. Even criminals are given a right to due process.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

God bless you and God bless America for not being savage like Chinese government and North Korean government.

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

God bless you and God bless America for not being savage like Chinese government and North Korean government.

Do those countries have an illegal immigration problem? Are they racially profiling?

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:17 PM

already answered your questions quite a few times but I'll answer again. Your critical thinking is shockingly ignorant and a prime example of why America is corroding away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Yawn .... there you go putting words in my mouth.

please correct me but you haven't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I clearly stated earlier that illegals should be treated like criminals. Because, after all, that is what they are.

yes but before they were criminals - they are "innocent until proven guilty." and I clearly stated that Supreme Court has granted them rights over 25 years ago (but not same rights as American citizens such as voting rights, gun rights, etc.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Again, do you think it is a crime to enter the U.S. Illegally?

yes. I don't "think". It's a crime to enter any country illegally anywhere in the world. In many countries - you are either shot on sight or severely punished at prison for a very long time. Thanks God we're not savages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Or, should illegals be rewarded for criminal behavior?

rewarded? how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

(i.e. should taxpayers money be used for their healthcare and education? do they have the right to sue for "equal accessibility"?)

and I've already provided you source above which Supreme Court has made a landmark ruling over 25 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

And when proven in a court of law that an individual is here illegally, should they be deported?

yes. However - if that illegal has been here for a long time, he deserves the rights to path toward to becoming a legal American resident AFTER paying fines and perhaps jail prison if it's warranted.

Cesar Milan. Should he be deported out?

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Do those countries have an illegal immigration problem? Are they racially profiling?

yes. it doesn't hurt to pick up newspapers now and then.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:18 PM

so Steinhauer..... you keep claiming that illegal immigrants have more rights than American citizens. what rights are they?

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

So what criteria are officers going to be using when they suspect someone of being illegal?

That's spelled out in the Executive order by the governor. I wouldn't know the exact criteria. Though I believe there can be processes involved where racial profiling isn't needed or required at all. For example, at Ben Gurion airport security officials use behavior profiling to narrow down potential terrorists (not saying illegals are terrorists, mind you, just pointing something out here) only because in the past they did use racial profiling but it didn't work because a group of Japanese terrorists got past the security section because they didn't fit their racial profile. The result proved devastating.

Quote:

Takeshi Okudaira, Yasuyuki Yasuda, and Kozo Okamoto were suicidal members of the Japanese Red Army, willing to kill for the Palestinian cause. After being trained by Abu Hassan’s group in Lebanon, the three men were dispatched to Lod.

Okudaira, Yasuda, and Okamoto ostensibly drew little attention when they arrived at the Lod Airport on an Air France flight from Paris. Dressed in business suits, the college-aged kids carried musical instrument cases as a disguise. Inside the cases were semi-automatic machine guns, which once retrieved from the baggage claim were used in the attack.

The Japanese terrorists fired into the crowd, cutting down a group of Puerto Rican tourists visiting the Holy Land and killing sixteen of them. They threw grenades into packs of terrified people seeking shelter. One of the gunmen ran out onto the tarmac and began shooting passengers coming off a flight.

When it was over, a total of 26 people were dead. Eighty were injured. Israel changed the airport’s name to the Ben-Gurion International Airport and began a security system based on behavior profiling.

The system works. Fourteen years later, the case of Anne Marie Murphy — prevented by Israeli security agents from boarding an El Al flight with seven pounds of explosives — makes the point. The pregnant, fair-skinned Murphy, who is Irish, was profiled and deemed suspicious. During secondary screening, agents discovered Semtex concealed in the lining of her bag. Without knowing it, the former chambermaid had been given a bomb by her terrorist boyfriend, a Jordanian named Nizar Hindawi, who was not on the flight. Hindawi was the father of Murphy’s unborn child.

Is Israeli-Style Airport Security Coming to America? - International Analyst Network

Again, this is not about making parallels on illegals with terrorists. Just providing an example of how racial profiling isn't needed for a system to work.

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Do those countries have an illegal immigration problem? Are they racially profiling?

Not at Ben Gurion airport in Israel they don't.

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Yawn .... there you go putting words in my mouth.

I clearly stated earlier that illegals should be treated like criminals. Because, after all, that is what they are.

Again, do you think it is a crime to enter the U.S. Illegally? Or, should illegals be rewarded for criminal behavior? (i.e. should taxpayers money be used for their healthcare and education? do they have the right to sue for "equal accessibility"?)

And when proven in a court of law that an individual is here illegally, should they be deported?

It's funny because anywhere else in the country if somebody enters illegally in another country with no documentation and are caught they are faced with the consequences of breaking that country's law. Here, it's a "right." Not only is this silly but downright illogical. No one has a right to enter this country illegally without documentation, this means also U.S. citizens when returning to the U.S. they must prove they are citizens of the U.S. and not just enter without documentation.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

That's spelled out in the Executive order by the governor. I wouldn't know the exact criteria.

because it doesn't exist and nobody has a damn clue. Even cops do not know. Hell - I don't even know how without using racial profiling. If I were to do this job effectively - I'll have to use racial profiling but since the law says that I can only ask for immigration status AFTER they were suspected of something.... eh - I can just cook up the probable cause over tiniest infraction like disorderly conduct. speeding in excess of 2 mph.

Ever heard of "testilying"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Though I believe there can be processes involved where racial profiling isn't needed or required at all. For example, at Ben Gurion airport security officials use behavior profiling to narrow down potential terrorists (not saying illegals are terrorists, mind you, just pointing something out here) only because in the past they did use racial profiling but it didn't work because a group of Japanese terrorists got past the security section because they didn't fit their racial profile. The result proved devastating.

the reason why this "behavior profiling" doesn't work is because they were unconsciously racist and selective. They were specifically watch out for Islamic people or anybody with "Islamic behavior"

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Is Israeli-Style Airport Security Coming to America? - International Analyst Network

Again, this is not about making parallels on illegals with terrorists. Just providing an example of how racial profiling isn't needed for a system to work.

example? what example? how does that Israeli-style Airport Security apply to this if the illegals are crossing the border by going thru a hole in the wall, not airport?

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

It's funny because anywhere else in the country if somebody enters illegally in another country with no documentation and are caught they are faced with the consequences of breaking that country's law. Here, it's a "right." Not only is this silly but downright illogical. No one has a right to enter this country illegally without documentation, this means U.S. citizens when returning to the U.S. they must prove they are citizens of the U.S. and not just enter without documentation.

again - the issue is not about showing the documentation for crossing the border. We all must show our passports when entering the country but in any civilized country - we have rights. They cannot mistreat me. They cannot detain me indefinitely. They cannot deny my legal rights.

Now in case you have trouble following the thread - this thread is about showing the documentation for proof of immigration status IN America. If i were pulled over for speeding.... I must show 3 documents - license, insurance, and registration, right? Now I have to show proof of my immigration status that I'm a law-abiding American citizen??? now the local cops are the federal immigration officers like I.C.E.?????

oh you Caucasians.....

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so Steinhauer..... you keep claiming that illegal immigrants have more rights than American citizens. what rights are they?

Use your own advice and pick up a newspaper once in a while.

16 illegals sue Arizona rancher - Washington Times

Illegal Immigrants Sue Wendy's

Undocumented Immigrant Sues Harris County For $30 Million - KIAH

Illegal immigrant sues after hospital deports him | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

those are just a few from doing a google search. I am so surprised you never use google.

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

again - the issue is not about showing the documentation for crossing the border. We all must show our passports when entering the country but in any civilized country - we have rights. They cannot mistreat me. They cannot detain me indefinitely. They cannot deny my legal rights.

Now in case you have trouble following the thread - this thread is about showing the documentation for proof of immigration status IN America. If i were pulled over for speeding.... I must show 3 documents - license, insurance, and registration, right? Now I have to show proof of my immigration status that I'm a law-abiding American citizen??? now the local cops are the federal immigration officers like I.C.E.?????

oh you Caucasians.....

Your a racist

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

It's funny because anywhere else in the country if somebody enters illegally in another country with no documentation and are caught they are faced with the consequences of breaking that country's law. Here, it's a "right." Not only is this silly but downright illogical. No one has a right to enter this country illegally without documentation, this means also U.S. citizens when returning to the U.S. they must prove they are citizens of the U.S. and not just enter without documentation.

exactly, I have had to do the same thing when returning from overseas.

Should I sue because the guy that checked my documents was black and I am white?

**Banjo** · 04-26-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh you Caucasians.....

[sarcasm alert]
Raccccissttttt!!!!
[/sarcasm alert]

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 02:17 PM

A driver license, as in the case of Reba's example for South Carolina, already tells the police that the person is a citizen. It's already an adequate document to have on hand.

kokonut · 04-26-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

exactly, I have had to do the same thing when returning from overseas.

Should I sue because the guy that checked my documents was black and I am white?

If you have 'em, no sweat. Just as it is required of you to carry passports in other countries. I'm pro-legal immigration. If you don't have the proper documentation, well, there are consequences as a result, especially if you're staying illegally in a different country.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Use your own advice and pick up a newspaper once in a while.

16 illegals sue Arizona rancher - Washington Times

I support Barnett's cause. He did the right thing. Wondering what's the result of this lawsuit cuz I can't find the latest one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Illegal Immigrants Sue Wendy's

The illegals were taken advantage of by the employer and they told a lie that they will have employer sponsorship. It is the employer who is at fault for hiring them and taking advantage of them. Why focus on illegals? not employers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Undocumented Immigrant Sues Harris County For $30 Million - KIAH

And you support this? You support mistreatment and cruel lengthy detention of illegals in America? The illegals are human beings. The criminals are human beings. They have rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Illegal immigrant sues after hospital deports him | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

The Supreme Court is explicitly cleared about this issue when it comes to treating the injured people - regardless of their immigration status. and the hospital is required to notify the law enforcement if the patient is illegal immigrant. I support hospital's case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

those are just a few from doing a google search. I am so surprised you never use google.

still don't see anything that supports your claim that illegals have more rights than citizens. Citizens can do same thing anyway. I'm waiting to see what rights that illegals have that citizens do not have.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Your a racist

yes I am to a certain degree. Everybody is. Whoever denies it is the most racist one

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

A driver license, as in the case of Reba's example for South Carolina, already tells the police that the person is a citizen. It's already an adequate document to have on hand.

so why do the Arizona driver (an immigrant) need to carry 3 more documents? I listed the article in my post above. Apparently - driver license isn't adequate enough

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

exactly, I have had to do the same thing when returning from overseas.

Should I sue because the guy that checked my documents was black and I am white?

did you even read the Arizona immigration bill? It's not about checking your passport before entering the country. It's about local police officers doing the job as Federal immigration officers (I.C.E.) on street.

Steinhauer · 04-26-2010, 02:50 PM

Thanks to kokonuts link, I found something interesting:

Quote:

Press Release

August 24, 2006
American Hispanics Rally Behind Border Patrol Officers Facing Prison for Protecting their Communities

Washington, DC—Rampant lawlessness along the U.S.-Mexico border is of great concern to all Americans but for the people who live in communities along the border it is a daily threat to their safety and security. For these largely American Hispanic communities, the Border Patrol amounts to an overstressed and outmanned line of protection for communities under siege. In fact, these communities are so overwhelmed by illegal immigrants and the crime that comes with them, that Arizona and New Mexico have been forced to declare states of emergency at critical points over the past few years.
You Don’t Speak for Me! (YDSFM), a national coalition of American Hispanics who favor tighter immigration enforcement, has joined with thousands of other Americans in support of two Border Patrol officers who face as much a 20 years in prison for wounding a Mexican drug smuggler who had assaulted them and then tried to escape. Calling the convictions of Officers Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean, “a gross miscarriage of justice,” YDSFM is joining a national campaign to re-open their cases.
“These two officers have become pawns in a political campaign to make sure the laws against illegal immigration in this country are made as difficult as possible to enforce,” charged retired Col. Al Rodriguez, chairman of YDSFM. “If Officers Ramos and Compean had been serving in any police department in America, instead of the Border Patrol, they would have received medals and had their picture taken with the mayor. Instead, they face a possible 20-year prison sentence for upsetting the political interest groups that want to tie the hands of the people who protect our borders.”
YDSFM is part of a national bipartisan coalition that is seeking a federal investigation into the events that led to the convictions of Ramos and Compean. A web site, Convio: Site Not Found has been established to aid the two officers and their families.
YDSFM is also concerned that the chilling effect that the convictions of Ramos and Compean will have on other Border Patrol officers will further endanger innocent people – many American Hispanics – who live with the daily specter of organized crime syndicates running roughshod over their communities. “The people who live in South Texas have become hostages to criminal organizations that use their communities as a gateway to America,” Rodriguez said. “Unfortunately armed militias effectively taking over control of towns and communities does not happen only in Lebanon. It’s happening right here in the United States and this trial will only embolden the criminal militias that terrorize these border communities.”
American Hispanics, especially those who live near the border, overwhelmingly support efforts to increase law enforcement against coyotes, contends YDSFM. “To many people in South Texas, the Border Patrol is the only thing standing between them and the criminal gangs that run everything from drugs, to guns, to human beings across that border. The people who are out there doing battle with these criminals are heroes who deserve our complete support,” Rodriguez concluded.
For more information please contact Ira Mehlman (213) 700-0407.

You Don't Speak for Me

I can only imagine the arguments used against those two border agents.

Probably the same arguments seen here.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Thanks to kokonuts link, I found something interesting:

You Don't Speak for Me

I can only imagine the arguments used against those two border agents.

Probably the same arguments seen here.

but you don't find anything interesting in this article I posted? Arizona governor signs immigration bill

still haven't answered my question - what rights do illegals have that the American citizens do not have?

jillio · 04-26-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Well, Arizona is following a Federal law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

As long as there exists a "reasonable suspicion" then a “reasonable attempt” can be done to verify the suspect’s immigration status is. Arizona is actually enforcing and following a Federal law.

Sorry dude.

Reasonable is far too subjective a term. If they were following Federal law there would be no need for the state law. Federal supercedes state. This is redundant, at best.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

That's spelled out in the Executive order by the governor. I wouldn't know the exact criteria. Though I believe there can be processes involved where racial profiling isn't needed or required at all. For example, at Ben Gurion airport security officials use behavior profiling to narrow down potential terrorists (not saying illegals are terrorists, mind you, just pointing something out here) only because in the past they did use racial profiling but it didn't work because a group of Japanese terrorists got past the security section because they didn't fit their racial profile. The result proved devastating.

Is Israeli-Style Airport Security Coming to America? - International Analyst Network

Again, this is not about making parallels on illegals with terrorists. Just providing an example of how racial profiling isn't needed for a system to work.

Yeah, riiiiight. Laws like this won't lead to racial profiling and civil rights violations. And pigs can fly and bears don't shyte in the woods, either.

jillio · 04-26-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

but you don't find anything interesting in this article I posted? Arizona governor signs immigration bill

still haven't answered my question - what rights do illegals have that the American citizens do not have?

I wouldn't wait too long for an answer, Jiro.

**Jiro** · 04-26-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Reasonable to far too subjective a term. If they were following Federal law there would be no need for the state law. Federal supercedes state. This is redundant, at best.

and illegal. sssshhhhhhh

04-26-2010, 01:18 PM	#339 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 61,193	so Steinhauer..... you keep claiming that illegal immigrants have more rights than American citizens. what rights are they? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

04-26-2010, 02:17 PM	#349 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	A driver license, as in the case of Reba's example for South Carolina, already tells the police that the person is a citizen. It's already an adequate document to have on hand. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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